Chose your side *Spoiler for the Horde*

Moon Guard
10/25/2018 10:00 AMPosted by Hillsbradian
10/25/2018 08:45 AMPosted by Drakhar
I stand with Saurfang, 100%

What I don't understand are all these Forsaken players spitting hate at Saurfang for apparently "abandoning the fight at Undercity and shirking his duty?" Varok Saurfang took up the banner of the Horde and led the rallying cry when things were looking bleak for the Horde. He fought King Anduin Wrynn in single combat before Greymane interfered, and then charged back into battle with the rest of the Horde. So don't say he shirked his duty at Undercity, because he was the last line of defense for the Warchief, leaping into battle shouting 'My life for the Horde!'

The Banshee Queen would -never- fight and die for someone else. She is too afraid of death, and her punishment for her sins.


My understanding for why Horde are against Saurfang is that essentially they don’t want another Warchief to end up a raid boss and that this whole questline is just a repeat of Vol’jin in Dagger in the Dark, which is a very strong hint that Blizzard is planning on having Sylvanas drop her bow only on mythic. It’s basically a mass protest against Blizz retreading old stories that make the Horde look even more laughably comic-book evil - something that most Horde players don’t want.


Well, yeah. But it honestly makes more sense with Sylvanas. I mean, I don't know how anyone can be surprised by this, she's been getting progressively and consistently more and more evil since Warcraft 3, going from Rebel Undead Leader to Undead Leader to Undead Queen to actively seeking to spread more Undeath and going about enslaving Titanic forces for good on Azeroth.
10/25/2018 10:00 AMPosted by Hillsbradian
It’s basically a mass protest against Blizz retreading old stories that make the Horde look even more laughably comic-book evil - something that most Horde players don’t want.


From a writing standpoint, I imagine that they don't see a way to keep the faction conflict going without going one of two ways:

Idiot Plot - Some minor misunderstanding that could be dispelled with literally one sentence said from one side to the other to clarify what actually happened causes WAR! Literally everyone comes off like a stubborn moron in this kind of plot so audiences don't respond well to them, which is probably why they're trying to avoid using it again, after using it many, many other times.

Good vs. Evil - There is a good, justifiable reason for war. But war is a dramatic step, and that means that someone has to have done something terrible to justify righteous bloodshed. Unfortunately, when there are only two sides, one of them has to do the evil thing. Obviously that side has to be the Horde, I mean, look at them. Dead people and beastmen and savages while the Go-- I mean, Light-fearing people in shiny armor and largely prettier races are on the other side.

Now, there are actually other story beats that they could explore, but they'd be less broad strokes, more complex, and Blizzard isn't about that. They'd have to like, pay for a good writer for that, and who wants that kind of expense when "This lady looked at me wrong and now her tree must BURN" will do?

The only other setting that Blizzard has on their Story Dial is "The Factions Band Together to Defeat the Larger Threat" which is more or less how every expansion to date has ended, necessitating another face-heel turn at the beginning of the next to keep the good old "It's World of WARcraft not PEACEcraft" crowd happy.
Sylvannus needs to die. It’s the palate cleanser both Alliance and Horde need at this point.
I think it's pretty neat that Blizzard is incorporating this at all, even if it doesn't really amount to anything. It at least means they're trying new things, and maybe we'll see this a bit better developed in future situations?

I do agree that the overall story of BfA is underwhelming, but at the same time I think the most interesting part isn't the Sylvannas/Saurfang dichotomy (which feels a bit heavy-handed), but is instead how the expansion is dealing with what exactly death means in the Warcraft universe, and how it has gone from just being a temporary setback to a third party in the conflict between Light and Void.
It would be interesting if they are putting the faction war to bed with this expansion by shattering the factions. Everyone is neutral with everyone - you can cross group but you can also turn war mode on.

Forsaken/Blood Elves/Nightborne

Orc/Tauren/Troll/Goblin

Worgen/Night Elves/Dranei

Human/Dwarves/Void Elves

Pandas get to choose
If it survives the PTR, Team Steam Pools.
10/25/2018 02:08 PMPosted by Maeranyth
It would be interesting if they are putting the faction war to bed with this expansion by shattering the factions. Everyone is neutral with everyone - you can cross group but you can also turn war mode on.

Forsaken/Blood Elves/Nightborne

Orc/Tauren/Troll/Goblin

Worgen/Night Elves/Dranei

Human/Dwarves/Void Elves

Pandas get to choose
poor gnomes forgotten again
For roleplay reasons and quest interest. I'll be doing two runs of this. But naturally, I'm not invested in a storyline repeat of Mists of Pandaria. But this time Saurfang willfully abandoned the Horde, rather than Garrosh trying to kill vol'jin after being a complete pain in his !@#$.

I'm glad to see the decision in place because it adds player agency and choice. Or at least an illusion of choice. It'll all likely come to a singular canonical ending. But we get two experiences with it and I hope Blizzard doesn't ruin this chance for great story narrative.

But this also leaves a worrisome state for Alliance story treatment. I've been a loud voice about the state of Blizzard's development treatment for the Alliance. Seeing choices is great for the Horde... but what is in store for the Alliance?

Choice A. Side with the people who perpetually loses all the time but is screamed at that we're winning?

Choice B. Join the Horde?

10/25/2018 04:38 PMPosted by Darvile
10/25/2018 02:08 PMPosted by Maeranyth
It would be interesting if they are putting the faction war to bed with this expansion by shattering the factions. Everyone is neutral with everyone - you can cross group but you can also turn war mode on.

Forsaken/Blood Elves/Nightborne

Orc/Tauren/Troll/Goblin

Worgen/Night Elves/Dranei

Human/Dwarves/Void Elves

Pandas get to choose
poor gnomes forgotten again


The inner gnome main inside me cried in pain.. or reeled in the fact we're the next expansion baddie.
10/25/2018 08:16 PMPosted by Aelliciah
Side with the people who perpetually loses all the time but is screamed at that we're winning?


More like perpetually get losses, but keep winning at the end of it. It wasn't an Alliance city that was everyone's raid. The Alliance suffers, while the Horde loses. That's pretty much the dynamic. Hell, the first hard absolute loss the Alliance had resulted in a strong retaliation against Undercity. Meanwhile, you're kinda nuts if you think Mists wasn't a hard loss for the Horde, their faction leader changed, a rebellion won, the Alliance dictated terms to them, and the strongest city in the world was sacked, and it's looking possible this expansion as a whole will be another Alliance victory with the Zandalari fleet being wrecked next patch.

The Alliance definitely needs a more interesting dynamic than "Wow that sucked but we won, let's be heroic and do nothing with our victory" and also "We all follow the human for reasons". It just muddles all the Alliance races into an increasingly homogeneous cluster of faces. The Horde, for its issues, has consistently strong racial identity.
10/25/2018 08:16 PMPosted by Aelliciah
For roleplay reasons and quest interest. I'll be doing two runs of this. But naturally, I'm not invested in a storyline repeat of Mists of Pandaria. But this time Saurfang willfully abandoned the Horde, rather than Garrosh trying to kill vol'jin after being a complete pain in his !@#$.


How. In what way did Saurfang willingly abandon the Horde. Unless you didn't watch the Battle for Azeroth cinematic, you'd know that Saurfang fought intensely for the Horde at the Battle for Lordaeron. He fought bravely, he was captured, he escaped. Then Sylvanas sent her Dark Rangers to murder him because she thought he might get recaptured by the Alliance or something, or might say something? She betrayed Saurfang. She betrayed the spirit of the Horde.
10/25/2018 08:16 PMPosted by Aelliciah
For roleplay reasons and quest interest. I'll be doing two runs of this. But naturally, I'm not invested in a storyline repeat of Mists of Pandaria. But this time Saurfang willfully abandoned the Horde, rather than Garrosh trying to kill vol'jin after being a complete pain in his !@#$.


How. In what way did Saurfang willingly abandon the Horde. Unless you didn't watch the Battle for Azeroth cinematic, you'd know that Saurfang fought intensely for the Horde at the Battle for Lordaeron. He fought bravely, he escaped. Then Sylvanas sent her Dark Rangers to murder him because she thought he might get recaptured by the Alliance or something, or might say something? She betrayed Saurfang. She betrayed the spirit of the Horde.


There can be this big tis-for-tat situation. But the Horde spirit has always meant differently between the races but united under the common cause for Survival.

Orcs, trolls, and Tuaren all shared this same mantra of honor in the midst of Survival. Orcs would struggle with this but overall, they'd strive for honor in it all.

However, Blood Elves, Undead, and goblins have different takes on honor. Typically they are driven to survival through any means necessary. It matters not who's hurt in the process. We see this far more commonly in their questing experience.

The Horde's spirit was never unanimous. Saurfang embodies one section of the Horde; and by all means he did betray the Horde by his own actions. Horde broke into the Stormwind Stockades and had a chance to escape. Refused to remain and anything from there is up in the air. What you take as a betrayal (rightly so.) is also a sound move of Sylvanas' forces putting down a plausible threat to the Horde's further motives.

Saurfang outright denies "Sylvanas' horde" and thus turn his back. Making him a deserter. Staying in the Stockades meant he was safe from persecution for his desertion. Then whatever happened from there and the noted proof of 8.1's questline shows Saurfang is unknowingly being aided by Mathias Shaw - which makes Saurfang a liability if he's a pawn to the Alliance.

Cut off the limb before decay kills the rest of the body.
He still did not abandon or betray the Horde. The only one who showed any treachery here was Sylvanas not trusting the leader of the Orcs and deciding to kill him over it rather than take him at his word.
10/25/2018 11:08 PMPosted by Tsunnzu
Sylvanas not trusting the leader of the Orcs and deciding to kill him over it rather than take him at his word.


A leader who before his capture repeatedly questioned her and spat on her as a leader, who ignored a direct order to bring her Malfurion's head, and was ignoring his superior's command to fall back for the sake of a glorious death. A death he failed to get(which is VERY strange for any orc, especially one like him), and he refused to leave his prison cell while several other leaders and the champion were there to witness this. He is unquestionably compromised by the enemy, the only argument you can make is whether or not he should be compromised.
remember when everyone hated vol’jin for questioning the Warchief and didn’t want to take his side in Dagger in the Dark and wanted to help assassinate him to stay loyal to the insane genocidal maniacal City-destroying Warchief who was going too far?
10/26/2018 05:31 AMPosted by Hillsbradian
remember when everyone hated vol’jin for questioning the Warchief


Since when did vol'jin actively shirk his duty to his people before he was attacked? Saurfang shirked his duty to his people in refusing to come back. If he thinks Sylvanas is so bad, he should be protecting his people from her, not hiding in an enemy's prison. He's a weak pathetic imitation of Vol'jin, who was outspoken and present, and kept himself informed by staying close to Garrosh as often as he could. If he had been imprisoned before garrosh's attempt to kill him, he'd probably have snuck his way out of the city on his own, leaving voodoo curses in his wake. Saurfang doesn't care about his people, he only cares about himself.
10/26/2018 06:30 AMPosted by Felorela
Since when did vol'jin actively shirk his duty to his people before he was attacked?



Vol'jin says: I have sometin' to show ya. It be easier to understand if ya see it yourself.
Garrosh's image appears.
Vision of Garrosh Hellscream says: Don't talk back to me, troll. You know who was left in charge here. Haven't you stopped to ask yourself why Thrall chose me instead of you?
Vol'jin's image appears.
Vision of Vol'jin says: Dere be no question why, Garrosh. He gave ya tha title because ya be Grom's Son and because tha people be wantin' a war hero.
Vision of Vol'jin says: To which I tink ya be even more like ya father den he thought, even without ya havin' da demon blood.
Vision of Garrosh Hellscream says: You are lucky I don't gut you right here, whelp. You are foolish to think that you can speak to your Warchief in such ways.
Vision of Vol'jin says: Ya be no Warchief of mine. Ya've not earned my respect and I'll not be seein' tha Horde destroyed by ya foolish thirst for war.
Vision of Garrosh Hellscream says: And what exactly do you think that you'll do about it? Your threats are hollow. Go slink away with the rest of your kind in the slums. I will endure your filth in my throne room no longer.
Vision of Vol'jin says: I know exactly what I'll be doin' about it, son of Hellscream. I'll be watchin' as ya people slowly become aware of ya ineptitude. I'll laugh as dey grow ta despise ya as I do.
Vision of Vol'jin says: And when tha time comes dat ya failure is complete and ya "power" is meaningless, I will be dere to end ya rule, swiftly and silently.
Vision of Vol'jin says: Ya will spend ya reign glancin' over ya shoulda and fearin' tha shadows, for when tha time comes and ya blood be slowly drainin' out, ya will know exactly who fired da arrow dat pierced ya heart.


This was right after Garrosh was made Warchief. I think actively disrespecting your warchief and threatening to kill him is 'shirking his duty to his people' by your definition.

Saurfang shirked his duty to his people in refusing to come back.


Yes, Saurfang obviously should come back to the Warchief who killed and raised her own troops and then told Saurfang she'd raise his dead corpse - while making a dig at his deceased son. It's clear she has zero respect for him and his moral objections to her atrocious acts.
10/26/2018 06:30 AMPosted by Felorela
10/26/2018 05:31 AMPosted by Hillsbradian
remember when everyone hated vol’jin for questioning the Warchief


Since when did vol'jin actively shirk his duty to his people before he was attacked?


When he and Baine warned Jaina ahead of time that Garrosh was planning to attack Theramore, for one thing? The attack in the Veiled Stair was a setup because Garrosh KNEW Vol'jin would never go along with his plans and it gave him a convenient, justified way to eliminate a thorn in his side. Before that, Vol'jin was already one foot out the door with having the Darkspear secede from the Horde. But Thrall managed to convince him to stay. He dissented against Garrosh from Day 1, which was only hardened when Garrosh killed Cairne in a tainted mak'gora (granted it wasn't Garrosh's fault that it was tainted).

Garrosh never trusted Vol'jin because he undermined him when he could. It's why only Garrosh and his trusted lackeys knew about the mana bomb: because he knew if Vol'jin or the other major Horde leaders knew about it (yes, even Sylvanas), they'd do everything they could to stop it. By the time they found out it existed, it was too late.
Vol'jin was only "assassinated" after Vol'jin openly stated that he was going to kill Garrosh. To his face.
My shoulders are off for Saurfang.

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