Depression and Char Development (Spoilers)

Story Forum
<span class="truncated">...</span>I mean Old Soldier having him flashback to his son's death when standing there watching, and hearing, thousands of innocent civilians dying by an action his leader gave clearly said to me that he was masking his trauma by throwing himself into his "job." Which is why he has such a sudden and intense reaction to it, leading up to him basically trying to commit suicide by combat shortly after this.

And then once again after seeing Sylvanas kill her own troops with biological weapons just to resurrect them to fight the Alliance.
I mean, she just mass murdered the Horde and enslaved/damned their immortal souls and stated to his face that honor means nothing to a corpse. She is a corpse. Honor means nothing to her. She will cheat in Mak'gora.

There was nothing he could do, in that moment, that didn't guarantee he'd pointlessly die and become her slave-soldier like all the others.

People sure expect a lot out of someone when they're undermanned and witness their enemy enslave the souls of the dead after personally having them mass murdered with an all powerful plot device.
I think you quoted the wrong person here.

Of course she'd cheat in a Mak'gora. I find it funny certain other people think that she'd somehow honor that tradition or that even refusing it would matter to the Horde in the short term considering what a strangehold she has over the faction at the moment.

Its also funny because they ignore him repeatedly trying to tell her what to do and what not to do and act as if Saurfang tried literally nothing and then gave up. What the hell is he supposed to do when the person who is above him listens to nothing he says and does whatever she wants regardless of the consequences?

For all the people apparently super butthurt about him wanting to deal with her during a war, they sure act like he should have done something even more harshly during a war.
11/03/2018 01:05 AMPosted by Yersynia
Yer, the first step is admitting you have a problem in the first place.


And that is heroic. But it is only the first step. Admitting you have a problem for decades is not healing, it is making your damage your identity. And I’m all for radical acceptance, but this is a guy who is perfectly happy to demand change and growth in others while explicitly nursing the same !@#$ for years - and doing so in ways that abdicate his responsibilities and cost others their lives.

Sylvanas went too far, even I as her fan can see that. But to hold Saurfang up as the alternative, even without all this insulting saved-by-Alliance-morality retread, inspires nothing but gritted teeth and spittle. I would rather the Horde be destroyed than ‘saved’ this way.

‘I want my Horde back’ is such patronising bull!@#$.


Yersynia, you know much more about the Horde quest lines than I was there any textual admission from Saurfang prior to here that he knew what was happening to his psyche?

Also what change did he exactly demand in others? I am genuinely curious because I am not a horde player and though I try and keep up I guess I missed it.
11/03/2018 01:00 AMPosted by Yersynia
What we don’t understand is why he still won’t do anything with his own considerable strength.

What I don't understand is when people complain about this when it's exactly what he does in killing Dark Ranger Lyana and her forces and then heads off to start his work.
11/03/2018 01:11 AMPosted by Amadis
11/03/2018 01:00 AMPosted by Yersynia
What we don’t understand is why he still won’t do anything with his own considerable strength.

What I don't understand is when people complain about this when it's exactly what he does in killing Dark Ranger Lyana and her forces and then heads off to start his work.
No see at that point he's a traitor because beforehand he should have done something to the character who was ignoring what he was saying and was doing whatever she wanted anyway...or something?

...and even if he would have tried to kill her, all those same people would have thrown a fit because it was in the middle of a war?
So being consumed and paralyzed by his grief and neuroses for a decade isn't heroic.

But he's changing that now, isn't he? That should be laudable.

(But, again, I'm Alliance and haven't had to deal with Saurfang.)
11/03/2018 01:14 AMPosted by Rhuna
So being consumed and paralyzed by his grief and neuroses for a decade isn't heroic.
Nobody said it was heroic. Nobody even implied this.

We've been trying to explain how that could why he does certain things that certain posters seem to constantly hate on him, instead of being just a stoic badass one note badass badass who never backs down from a fight and is just a super duper badass person and always wins and wants to fight.


Ah, maybe I should have quoted what I was responding to. Apologies for the confusion.

Here's the bit my reply was aimed at:

I know characters have flaws. But self pity and inaction are not compelling ones. Especially when they’ve been present since Wrath and he’s clearly done nothing to try and overcome them - a story about someone who is consistently a jackass isn’t some heroic tale of struggle. It’s a story about a jackass.
11/03/2018 01:18 AMPosted by Rhuna
Ah, maybe I should have quoted what I was responding to. Apologies for the confusion.

Here's the bit my reply was aimed at:
Oh gotcha, my bad!
Yersynia, you know much more about the Horde quest lines than I was there any textual admission from Saurfang prior to here that he knew what was happening to his psyche?

Also what change did he exactly demand in others? I am genuinely curious because I am not a horde player and though I try and keep up I guess I missed it.


High Overlord Saurfang says: The winter after the curse was lifted, hundreds of veteran orcs like me were lost to despair. Our minds were finally free, yes... Free to relive all of the unthinkable acts that we had performed under the Legion's influence.
High Overlord Saurfang nods.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I think it was the sounds of the draenei children that unnerved most of them... You never forget... Have you ever been to Jaggedswine Farm? When the swine are of age for the slaughter... It's that sound. The sound of the swine being killed... It resonates the loudest. Those are hard times for us older veterans.

...

High Overlord Saurfang says: I won't let you take us down that dark path again, young Hellscream. I'll kill you myself before that day comes...


This was Wrath. He then watched Garrosh take us down that dark path again, and did nothing. He waited until
Vol’jin and Thrall acted in MoP. He knows damn well he’s !@#$ed up by his past and stated that he wants to better himself. And he demands self improvement from others on pain of death. This is only a problem when he is willing to throw others under the bus for not changing, but not himself.

I don’t think he’s pathetic for freezing in the moment, or for failing to act on those ideals, or even for taking a decade to get his %^-* together. I get that. I think he’s pathetic because now, at the hour he is needed most, he ‘Wants *his* Horde back’ and his solution was to give in and hope Anduin did it for him. I’d like for him to do something, if it really is *his* Horde. I’d like him to be self aware enough to blush at this declaration of ownership when, until 8.1 after these comments, he’s done jack !@#$ to try and define the Horde despite explicit promises to do so.
11/03/2018 01:14 AMPosted by Rhuna
So being consumed and paralyzed by his grief and neuroses for a decade isn't heroic.

But he's changing that now, isn't he? That should be laudable.

(But, again, I'm Alliance and haven't had to deal with Saurfang.)


It is 100% a commendable act to get his !@#$ together. I applaud him. But the damage he has caused by his inaction until this point isn’t just excused because he’s finally acting. Negligence isn’t just automatically exonerated by eventual action.

And more to the point, his actions are to abandon the armies of his people (Including Zekhan!) to the Alliance in the hope they’d do his job for him, to flee, to hide, and to kill Horde troops. And not in the name of atonement, no, he isn’t that self aware. It’s all in the name of the explicit desire that he ‘Wants his Horde back’. He doesn’t want to change - he’s an old man getting other people killed so he can stay in the times that made sense to him.
11/03/2018 12:01 AMPosted by Saiphas
@Asoni

Sylvanas has a quality that is extremly important in any leader, conviction. She is absolutely convinced of her rightness and is able to articulate her line of argument in cold logic. It is really powerful when others are uncertain to be certain. Yes, depression and doubt are key parts of the narrative that has been set up in the post legion world.


Gallywix also has conviction. That doesn't make him a capable Warchief. Heck, he's often mocked by the other leaders openly. Conviction doesn't seem to win him much respect.

The rest of the leadership had enough conviction to overthrow the last tyrant in charge. They were pretty obvious about it too from early on, only waiting for the right pieces to come into place. Seeing as they've only seen greater heights since then, I can't imagine why they would have less convinction now, than they did in the past. Why is this time different?

I can accept that depression and doubt can be parts of the narrative. But I'm not so sold on the "key" aspect of it. Outside of Jaina, little time has been spent on the idea. They've had doubt and depression laid out in more explicit terms in the past. Outland Nagrand comes to mind, as well as some of Thrall's story post-BC, but those have often been in more explicit terms, and character specific stories. What reason do you have to believe that depression and doubt are major themes for characters across this expansion?

I get it can be a lens through which to view the events of the expansion to make a few connections with. But that does not make it a core theme. Is there anything more tangible than that to grasp this notion with?
11/03/2018 12:06 AMPosted by Rhuna

I don't think he was talking about fear of Sylvanas, just the general fear of uncertainty that comes with fighting a war you don't believe in, maybe?

Outside of Baine - who I believe is right to be afraid of her declaring his people Excommunicate Traitoris - I agree with what you're saying. But the other Horde leaders not stepping in has more to do with plot than reason.

It's like the Vindicaar, if it doesn't help the story they want to tell, it doesn't exist.

I will cede to you the point that the narrative is king. If Blizzard decides that things work out a certain way, we can scream about it all we want, it's not going to matter how little consistency it might have. That's just how things work. They don't need to have any rhyme or reason for it, technically speaking. But I don't think calling out the inconsistencies is pointless. If their narrative has glaring holes, sizable omissions, or a logic that the audience has trouble following, they are right to be called out on it, even if it does change little about what happens.

That said, I will have to dispute that notion about the Taurens, however. I can buy Baine buying into her threat, certainly. He's very much a young leader who isn't quite ready for his position, thrusted in by necessity before he could fully prepare himself, so I don't feel like him not having the savvy or bravery is that unbelievable. But I doubt the reality of the situation. Lets say, for a moment, Baine grows a brass set, and called her out on it. What now?

"Exteriminate the Tauren?" Really? You think Sylvanas is that well liked enough, or respected enough, that such an order would be followed? The Tauren, the most likeable, loyal, agreeable, and physically capable of the Horde, to be slaughtered because Sylvanas says so? I don't think that would go well for her. I think the Tauren would be fine. If anything, Slyvanas gets totally exposed for the weak leader she is in that moment.

Do you honestly think Baine having a secret correspondence with Anduin before the war really is that damning? Lorthemar had Alleria at the Sunwell just recently. Slyvanas had a playdate with her Alliance-loyal sisters. I don't think it's really that would really be that damning, especially from Slyvanas, who developed a secret plague at one point, and bombed Horde soldiers with it. I can't think of anything Baine did that was as questionable to Horde loyalties as that.
11/03/2018 12:10 AMPosted by Etheldald
11/02/2018 11:56 PMPosted by Asoni
Why? Why is Sylvanas that intimidating?

is not exactly sylvanas, is the war as a whole.
everyone just had enough,everyone had lost much things that will never come back,characters who had to deal with personal tragedies,almost every racial leader had to deal with some devastating loss of someone or something important to them.
being cities,people,family.
because that... is what war does.

Agreed. But isn't that an argument in my favor? Shouldn't the war-weary people be quite upset, if not enraged, by their leader, if they got them into an unnecessary conflict? Historically speaking, that's the kind of stuff massive civil unrest is sparked from.

Because, unlike the chain of conflict that came before it, the Iron Horde and the Legion, this was a completely unnecessary war. After a few long years of conflict, and with faction relations as calm as they'd ever been, it was a real opportunity for rest. And Slyvanas screwed that up for them. Maybe they believe they can't back out of this war now. I could buy that (although Baine suggesting negotiations seems to counter that notion). But they don't need her to be in charge of it. I see no reason why the Horde needs Slyvanas in charge at all, and fewer reasons to trust her judgement. She got us into this mess, after all, and this is going to be a tough enough fight that we could do without her screwing up even more for us while we're dealing with it. We can fight a war with the Alliance, andoverthrow her for her incompetence. It's not an either/or situation. And it likely wouldn't even be a hard call, given how little the Horde likes her.

That's one issue that felt like it needed explanation, actually. I don't understand what Slyvanas actually offers the Horde. We offer her soldiers and meat shields to enable her to commit her pointlessly evil deeds, I get that. But what does she offer us? What does the Horde even need Sylvanas for? It feels like she needs us more than we need her, but the narrative acts as if it's the opposite, so much so that she can treat us as tools openly with no opposition, because she's apparently just that valuable. Again, it can't be simply that she's Warchief. We've killed our dishonorable Warchiefs before.

In theory, it's a practical, survive-at-any-cost strategy that she could offer us. We'd be amoral, but we'd win. Given that we're losing on every front, though... She seems pretty useless to me.

As a side note, this expansion is going a long way to ruining my previous conceptions of Sylvanas. I had always taken her as evil, but intelligent, efficient, sensible, and highly competent. Turns out, it seems she has very little merit at all. Virtually everything she has touched as Warchief as turned to failure. Her gross incompetence is frankly more of an annoyance to me than her lack of ethics. The only thing that seems to spare her is Horde's collective inexplicable lack of will to call her out on it. At this point, I think pity is as decent an explination as any other.
I think it's incredibly cowardly and condescending to say people who don't like Saurfang's inaction are hating on him for being depressed.
Can we agree that world of warcraft, with its current writers, is not the medium that should be used to explore real life problems?
11/03/2018 01:11 AMPosted by Amadis
11/03/2018 01:00 AMPosted by Yersynia
What we don’t understand is why he still won’t do anything with his own considerable strength.

What I don't understand is when people complain about this when it's exactly what he does in killing Dark Ranger Lyana and her forces and then heads off to start his work.


Because it's US doing it for him again, saving his useless butt while he was hiding in a swamp and we still don't know what his actual !@#$%^- PLAN is
11/03/2018 03:11 AMPosted by Skytotem
11/03/2018 01:11 AMPosted by Amadis
...
What I don't understand is when people complain about this when it's exactly what he does in killing Dark Ranger Lyana and her forces and then heads off to start his work.


Because it's US doing it for him again, saving his useless butt while he was hiding in a swamp and we still don't know what his actual !@#$%^- PLAN is
If you choose not to help him, he does it anyway. He doesn't need our help to kill one dark ranger and a bunch of nameless henchmen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYQ-u9mnUGw
Depression and PTSD is too complex for Horde to understand. If it doesn't have explosions or soneone yelling "for the horde" then they aren't interested.

That being said, Saurfang's inaction has directly caused the death of more Horde lives. I equate it to Baine purposely telling Jaina about plans to invade Theramare. This endangered more Horde lives.
It's extremely frustrating to me that people are trying to say everyone who doesn't agree with Saurfang is either a Sylvanas fan or "lacks empathy." It's fine for Saurfang to ask for help, but why is he not doing that with the Horde rather than with Anduin? It's kind of bizarre that there are a bunch of people who are presumably having a similar experience with Sylvanas as he did himself and he never tries to talk to them. And it's not even necessarily an oversight - he actually rejects help from the Horde before accepting it from Anduin. Which would actually be fine if he were just trying to get help with his own personal issues - but he's not, he's asking for help to change the Horde. And doing that explicitly without the input of the group that he is trying to change is patronizing and offensive. Essentially, he's trying to impose his own ideas on the Horde in order to make himself feel better. Even if he's depressed, that doesn't give him the right to act like his feelings are the only ones that matter. In fact, I'd say he's the one who's lacking empathy here.
11/03/2018 04:20 AMPosted by Kastrieren
Depression and PTSD is too complex for Horde to understand. If it doesn't have explosions or soneone yelling "for the horde" then they aren't interested.

That being said, Saurfang's inaction has directly caused the death of more Horde lives. I equate it to Baine purposely telling Jaina about plans to invade Theramare. This endangered more Horde lives.


“The Horde posters have a point, and I even agree, but they’re still goons incapable of handling nuanced ideas.”

You’re literally repeating an idea Horde have been articulating, for page upon page, that doesn’t include explosions or someone yelling ‘for the horde’.

Low effort !@#$post. Improve.
I feel like Saurfang turned to Anduin because at that point in time he feels like he's alone and has no one else to turn to. He's in no position to challenge Sylvannas on his own, he's let her become too powerful and now he's in a place where if he challenges her, he'll either lose and die and the Horde will nosedive itself into the dirt, or he skulks away quietly and gives himself a chance to make things right.

In this sense, no matter what choice he makes, it is bound to piss someone off. Those who follow their honor code won't like that he "abandoned them" or turned to the Alliance for help and those that support Sylvannas will hate him for challenging the Horde as it is right now and threatening the rule of their Supreme Warchief.

The best way I can make an analogy to this is when my parents used to fight each other almost every day when I was younger. They would find reasons to hate each other and were at a stalemate for who would "win". Often times, my parents would use me as the tie breaker and force me to go against my other parent and use me as a sort of shield. I loved both my parents despite their horrible treatment of me and I didn't want them to fight but I felt helpless since any time I would interject or refuse to pick a side, I would face the ire of both and then it became a chore or whether I felt like having my mother tell me that she hated me that week or my father telling me he hated me for that week and neither of those options were good. So I had to look at an outside force in the form of a counselor from my elementary school to tip the scales and stop them from destroying each other because at that point I had no power to do anything and I was desperate to get them to stop fighting.

That's how I feel like Saurfang's situation is. Looking at it that way, I actually kind of feel bad for him a little.
11/03/2018 06:13 AMPosted by Yersynia
11/03/2018 04:20 AMPosted by Kastrieren
Depression and PTSD is too complex for Horde to understand. If it doesn't have explosions or soneone yelling "for the horde" then they aren't interested.

That being said, Saurfang's inaction has directly caused the death of more Horde lives. I equate it to Baine purposely telling Jaina about plans to invade Theramare. This endangered more Horde lives.


“The Horde posters have a point, and I even agree, but they’re still goons incapable of handling nuanced ideas.”

You’re literally repeating an idea Horde have been articulating, for page upon page, that doesn’t include explosions or someone yelling ‘for the horde’.

Low effort !@#$post. Improve.


You're getting a lot of blue posters who think twisting the knife right now is funny. I generally just try not to engage.

In any case, I am in agreement that the real sin here is the one of inaction, and there didn't even need to be any more content put in to help with this particular issue. Saurfang's story in 8.1 ends on a clear cliffhanger and the implications are all incredibly frustrating for Horde players, but there is still no confirmation yet of what he actually plans to DO.

Had Saurfang said, "I'm going to Nagrand to look for Thrall." or "I'm going to challenge Sylvanas to mak'gora." or even "I'm going to rally those who are dissatisfied with her rule and remove her as Warchief... by force, if necessary." then you wouldn't have this maddening sense of inaction - that he's still waiting for someone else to do something about the problem. In the vacuum of actual stated intent, the player base is filling in the blanks... and unfortunately the most probable scenario of MoP 2.0 is what seems to have been settled on.

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