Anduin or Tyrande, which one is right?

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11/06/2018 11:10 PMPosted by Verlius
I hate to say it, but my guess would be that if anyone is proven correct, it would be Anduin. Having that happen though would be an even worse version of A Little Patience.

On the topic of the dark shore warfront, it's kinda weird how the just the night elves can stalemate the horde now, when before they couldn't. Is it just because of the Night Warrior thing? Like don't get me wrong it is better for the story, but it just seems odd.


They couldn't before because their entire army was away due to bad intel from the humans. That army's not away now.
11/06/2018 11:16 PMPosted by Lena
11/06/2018 11:10 PMPosted by Verlius
On the topic of the dark shore warfront, it's kinda weird how the just the night elves can stalemate the horde now, when before they couldn't. Is it just because of the Night Warrior thing? Like don't get me wrong it is better for the story, but it just seems odd.


Because the night elf army had been sent away by Anduin the first time so they weren't there to defend and by the time they arrived they couldn't properly land troops because of the magic catapults Sylvanas pulled out of her butt.


Thats something I overlooked that makes their strength gain more reasonable, thanks.

Power levels really are completely up to the situation in this story anymore though lol. If just the night elves on their own with a little help from the worgen is enough to stalemate the complete horde, you would think the alliance was by far more powerful.
Tyrande.

And as much as it may gaul me to agree with Lena, if the Alliance hadn’t decided to prioritize Arathi first and focused on retaking Darkshore they probably wouldn’t be so “stretched”.
11/06/2018 11:10 PMPosted by Verlius
I hate to say it, but my guess would be that if anyone is proven correct, it would be Anduin. Having that happen though would be an even worse version of A Little Patience.


that's likely to happen. They will crush any dissonance in the Alliance to promote this "unity" cliche even if it turns everyone into a homogeneous blob and gives the alliance is an empire argument merit. Not to mention further showing Anduin to be a chosen one/author's pet.

What they should do is either prove Tyrande right, or better yet, proven neither right and maintain this divide in the alliance throughout the rest of the expansion and possibly beyond to give the alliance more depth. However, that would mean Blizzard writing the alliance as something beyond a afterthought reaction to the Horde doing anything.
One thing to consider is that Tyrande is playing into Sylvanas' strategy by fighting in Kalimdor. Granted it hasn't played out like she imagined with Anduin 'not being able to act' but some of that is thankful to Malfurion being alive and Tyrande unleashing Night Warrior, which wasn't predictable. But I still question the wisdom of playing into Sylvanas' strategy, especially since Anduin had caught onto the fact that that is what she was doing.

But the Zandalari fleet does get destroyed, so maybe it doesn't matter. The horde apparently can't secure Kalimdor anyway. Do unresolved tensions ever last long alliance side?
Unpopular non bashing Anduin opinion here, but I don't say either were wrong. Both succeeded in their goals , at least for the moment, and with the Zandalari fleet out of the picture, the Alliance can push to Darkshore to reinforce.

Honestly though I feel Anduin not at fault for keeping his armies focused on Zandalar and Arathi, just cause everyone (even oocly) expects Stormwind to show up and die for them while other Alli members let the humans died for their gains.

If I'm to play a blame game here, I blame the Alliance leadership for not taking a more active part with Tyranda's plight. Velen does nothing, excuses wit hArgus or not, he still not helping his neighbors, the gnomes or dwarves haven't put their lot behind the Night Elves because their either securing their own borderss in Arathi, fighting on the Seas, or Mole Machining it up in Zandalar. Only the Worgen sent their dedicated military to the fore. As we saw with this, despite Lena's whining against the idea, other leaders CAN turn their attention away from Stormwind, they just don't cause let the humans die for them, lolz.
11/06/2018 11:22 PMPosted by Anyaceltica
11/06/2018 11:10 PMPosted by Verlius
I hate to say it, but my guess would be that if anyone is proven correct, it would be Anduin. Having that happen though would be an even worse version of A Little Patience.


that's likely to happen. They will crush any dissonance in the Alliance to promote this "unity" cliche even if it turns everyone into a homogeneous blob and gives the alliance is an empire argument merit. Not to mention further showing Anduin to be a chosen one/author's pet.

What they should do is either prove Tyrande right, or better yet, proven neither right and maintain this divide in the alliance throughout the rest of the expansion and possibly beyond to give the alliance more depth. However, that would mean Blizzard writing the alliance as something beyond a afterthought reaction to the Horde doing anything.


On that note, the divide could be furthered even more by Anduin letting Saurfang go, which should deeply anger people like Tyrande. If they want fractures in the alliance story, I think that would be a good way to add them.
11/06/2018 11:35 PMPosted by Verlius
11/06/2018 11:22 PMPosted by Anyaceltica
...

that's likely to happen. They will crush any dissonance in the Alliance to promote this "unity" cliche even if it turns everyone into a homogeneous blob and gives the alliance is an empire argument merit. Not to mention further showing Anduin to be a chosen one/author's pet.

What they should do is either prove Tyrande right, or better yet, proven neither right and maintain this divide in the alliance throughout the rest of the expansion and possibly beyond to give the alliance more depth. However, that would mean Blizzard writing the alliance as something beyond a afterthought reaction to the Horde doing anything.


On that note, the divide could be furthered even more by Anduin letting Saurfang go, which should deeply anger people like Tyrande. If they wants fractures in the alliance story, I think that would be a good way to add them.

Especially if Saurfang turns out not to lead any rebellion against Sylvanas, that might amplify tensions significantly.
How exactly can tyrande be correct here? She doesnt have a plan outside of attack and retake territory. What objectives are we aiming for? Is there key horde assets in the area to make this worth while? How do we supply this operation with no port and no guarantee of naval superiority to protect convoys? Do we even have a plan if things go south? Can we guarantee the horde cannot capitalize on this? What stops the horde from simply trading territory they dont need in darkshore for horde gains in other areas?

Tyrande puts tremendous strain on alliance supply lines and assets for... what exactly? Teldrassil is a smoking husk and anything valuable has been destroyed or looted and shipped to mulgore.
They both have points.

As of right now the Eastern Kingdoms are the Alliances strongholds. Pushing the Horde out, or at least as far back as Silvermoon, is reasonable. So is destroying the Zandalari fleet.

However, if the Alliance is stretched thin, how do you think things are looking for the Horde? The WoW Era Horde was never known for its numbers, it relied on "higher quality" warriors like Orcs and Tauren to even things out, along with a number of other factors. Kalimdor is also the Horde stronghold at this time. The Horde has been pushing into Ashenvale and Darkshore for years for resources. Pushing them out and denying them access to those resources could cripple them.

Nice to see a little Drama with both side having cases for once Alliance side.
My concern is, even if the NEs reclaimed Darkshore, how would they hold it? What kind of supply lines would the Alliance even have to aid them? Clearly the Horde have an easier time getting their supplies. Even by ship that is quite a long distance.
11/06/2018 11:56 PMPosted by Braywick
My concern is, even if the NEs reclaimed Darkshore, how would they hold it? What kind of supply lines would the Alliance even have to aid them? Clearly the Horde have an easier time getting their supplies. Even by ship that is quite a long distance.


I mean, realistically they should still have a supply chain through the Exodar.
11/06/2018 10:05 PMPosted by Lena
11/06/2018 09:59 PMPosted by Khaar
to the point that they're calling up farmers to fight because they're running out of actual soldiers.


That's normal for a feudal society. Professional armies were very rare. England for example didn't have one until the 1600s.


It’s not normal for WoW societies, the story presents the conscription as being dire. Stop being intentionally obtuse.
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She stretched the already stretched Alliance forces further, and she did so in an act that corresponded with becoming the literal avatar of a God's Vengeance. Whatever you would like to say about her decision to go into Darkshore, there was a lot of blind emotion in it. The irony of her going down that route after her conversation with Keal in WC3 is rather interesting ... and is just another parallel between the Fall of Quel'thalas and the Burning of Teldrassil.


I keep seeing people saying Tyrande "stretched Alliance forces" and similar quotes, but how? Anduin doesn't provide her with any aide what so ever. No Alliance forces are deployed to Darkshore. They aren't stretched anywhere. Tyrande does it on her own with just some of her own people. That's the whole point of the questline and scenario. Anduin doesn't send any forces, just you the single player character, every single other alliance force continues on as if the Warfront and attack never happen.


Because after the Siege of Lordaeron, the Alliance's legions are low on manpower and the fight for the Arathi Highlands and Zuldazar both. They need the Gilnean Brigade and the Night Elves to reinforce them.

Without them, they have no reinforcements and once their numbers diminish past a certain threshold they no longer have the means to hold ground anywhere except for perhaps a fortress, which is what the Defilers would excel in attacking. They don't need to eat or sleep while the living do and they can use an old tactic of launching something plague infested over the walls to attack the defenders with pestilence.

The trailer they put out emphasized on how the Alliance was down to conscripts and with the forces stretched too thin, they gave the Horde a divide and rule play to work with. Even if Darkshore is won for the Night Elves and the Gilneans, the battle for the Arathi Highlands might be lost because they don't have the men to continue fighting and fortify anywhere, leaving the Horde to oust them out of the territory.

What's worse, taking something is different than holding something. If the Gilnean Brigade and the Night Elves are separated from the Alliance with no port to draw resources/reinforcements from, or even soldiers that *can* be called on for reinforcements if they did have a port, they'll find their numbers diminishing.

As much as it puts a bad taste in my mouth, I think Anduin was right and this is setting Tyrande up for ALP 2.0, complete with a "I told you so/this is exactly why I didn't want you to leave" moment for Anduin, even if he doesn't say it.
11/07/2018 12:21 AMPosted by Jrake
I mean, realistically they should still have a supply chain through the Exodar


does the exodar even exist?
I'll keep saying that trying to retake Kaldorei lands at this time would have been Alliance suicide, but ignoring what's happening would have bit the Alliance in the butt in the long term. Anduin needed to send some troops to at least help Tyrande disrupt Forsaken operations in Kalimdor and get it ready for a full Alliance push later down the road.
11/06/2018 11:55 PMPosted by Jrake
They both have points.

As of right now the Eastern Kingdoms are the Alliances strongholds. Pushing the Horde out, or at least as far back as Silvermoon, is reasonable. So is destroying the Zandalari fleet.

However, if the Alliance is stretched thin, how do you think things are looking for the Horde? The WoW Era Horde was never known for its numbers, it relied on "higher quality" warriors like Orcs and Tauren to even things out, along with a number of other factors. Kalimdor is also the Horde stronghold at this time. The Horde has been pushing into Ashenvale and Darkshore for years for resources. Pushing them out and denying them access to those resources could cripple them.

Nice to see a little Drama with both side having cases for once Alliance side.


It's probably not so dire for the Horde in Kalimdor. Despite Malfurion opening a legendary can of whoop-!@# alongside the Druids, Siege of Lordaeron super-gouged the Alliance. If it's anything like the battle of Vienna, a small sum of soldiers with the defenses of a fortress versus an overwhelming amount of enemies spells out disaster for the enemy attempting to overcome the fortress' defenses.
11/07/2018 12:48 AMPosted by Etheldald
11/07/2018 12:21 AMPosted by Jrake
I mean, realistically they should still have a supply chain through the Exodar


does the exodar even exist?


I don't know. Velen seems to mostly stand around in Stormwind saying nothing and draenei at large aren't doing anything. Just random ones here or there, I think there's like 4 in all of BfA content.
Y'know, credit where it's due. For all the terrible things that can be said about Wolfheart, at least when the Night Elves needed help with Garrosh, Varian showed up. In person.

You'd think that'd cross the Boy King's mind, with his constant fretting over whether he's living up to Daddy.

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