Anduin or Tyrande, which one is right?

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11/07/2018 12:41 PMPosted by Rothiron
11/07/2018 12:10 PMPosted by Jrake
The Horde has always been interested in NE lands for the near limitless supply of lumber. I'm going to all assume there is a fair bit of various ores that can be mined as well, and if the Goblins are any indication, oil too.

All vital to the Horde War Effort of stone and wood buildings and explosions.
But lumber isn't a precious resource that the Alliance is starved of, they have forests in Kul Tiras and Elwynn. Night Elf druids can also help hasten the growth of trees in a fraction of the time they can grow normally.

And I don't know if I recollect Ashenvale or Darkshore being particularly rich in minerals. They probably have the typical amount for your average region in Azeroth. And are there oil rigs or goblins in Darkshore on the PTR for the warfront?


You're right, the Alliance has other options for lumber. The Horde does not.

And to win a war the quickest and most efficient way you cut off your enemy's supplies and food. Leaving the Horde to capitalize on the resources in Darkshore and Ashenvale would be a huge tactical blunder.

The Wars main efforts should be food, resources, and The Fleets, building up our own through both conventional means and allies while also denying the Horde theirs by denying allies/their fleets, and the resources to build them.

Without the fleets they would be outmaneuvered and unable to safely move goods and troops. Without the food their armies starve, stop fighting, and defect. Without their resources their armies and holdings crumble and die.

With this in mind Anduin's main focus should be threefold.

1: Further securing his bread basket in Westfall and the lumber and ore in Redridge and Duskwood, by fortifying them further and adding more coastal protection, while also holding the horde in the North via use of Stromgarde and the Thandol Span.

2: Doing what they are already doing in Zandalar and Kul Tiras, with the Zandalar fleet already being rigged to blow, their is little reason to attack Dazar'alor. Continue to strengthen the relationship with the Kul Tirans and watch the Horde and Zandalari closely and use the bombs when needed.

3: Hindering one of the Horde's main resources helping them to supply their armies and holdings. AKA using the already built in infrastructure in Darkshore to send Alliance strike forces to hinder Horde resource gathering in the area and possibly even push them back enough to use the area as another supply line for Alliance resources. Half the people who help you in the Darkshore scenario and Warfront are captured prisoners, ones you free who then take up arms to fight with you. Ignoring both the potential recovery of allies and manpower, as well as letting the Horde solidify more supply lines, in this area, would be an absolute failure on any measure of military success.

Anduin seems to be doing some things right, but in other areas he is passing on easy victories and letting his lack of experience show. Sylvanas is doing as well as she is in the war due to is lack of action in many areas, ones a more experienced commander would not let slip. He really needs to either heed his advisers more or get better advisers.
Can't believe I'm saying this but I think Anduin ( oh geez) is more in the right. Tyrande is coming off as being unreasonable. I really want to be on Tyrande's side. Forces are stretched thin and she is expecting Anduin to drop everything for her? Selfish much? This seems like same story in MoP where Tyrande needed to learn "A little Patience" except this time she really does.
11/07/2018 03:55 PMPosted by Sarîa
Can't believe I'm saying this but I think Anduin ( oh geez) is more in the right. Tyrande is coming off as being unreasonable. I really want to be on Tyrande's side. Forces are stretched thin and she is expecting Anduin to drop everything for her? Selfish much? This seems like same story in MoP where Tyrande needed to learn "A little Patience" except this time she really does.


Which is frustrating even for a someone who likes Anduin like myself. Because Narratively once again it feels like they are setting NEs up to take it on the Chin, and NE fans don't deserve it.
11/07/2018 10:18 AMPosted by Jerolan
11/07/2018 08:57 AMPosted by Rothiron
You really get the sense that a lot of posters saying that Tyrande is right really only want her to be right, ignoring any pretense of strategy or logistics. And if things don't pan out the way they want, it'll just be "bad writing."
lol strategy and logistics in WoW. Cute.

My only complaint is that she chose Darkshore as her staging ground. Feralas would have been better with the existing stronghold there already and the proximity to Silithus where they could harass the Azerite miners.


Not to mention that Ironforge is still the largest, most untouched urban center on the planet. The only one not to be founded by a small refugee population (Org, Bluff, SW, Exo, Azs) or ravaged by a war (Dal, Lord/UC, Silv).

Yet, as always, Blizz forgets that it is a thing, so the Alliance is drafting farmers (which they did anyway in Wrath so who cares) instead of giving us dwarf themed content.

And that ladies and gentlemen is what is known as a feint, which happened plenty of times in history. There have been dumber moves in real life, like uber-fortifying France's eastern border against Germany... only for the Germans to walk around it.


Violation of benelux and low country neutrality (despite France having plans for the same in an emergency) was nonetheless what gave Britain an instant and public causus belli to join the war, and both times it completely wrecked Germany, since Germany had no real way to pressure the British or overcome the Royal Navy (especially since rapidly advancing ASW rapidly made unrestricted submarine warfare the most suicidal branch of the armed forces). There were plans to extend the Maginot Line (in fact it DID extend past the nominal German border), but the Ardennes was considered impassible at any good speed (and it was using WW1 tech) and moreover, it guaranteed that to go around it Germany would HAVE to violate neutrality and thus HAVE to bring the British into the war.

And therein lies the difference and problem with your example.

At this point, if Saurfang was able to go behind enemy lines in Stormwind and harass the Alliance in their homeland for years, dealing crippling blow after blow using guerilla warfare without almost any losses despite having a numerically inferior force, I've no doubt that it would be derided as utter fantasy and awful story writing by posters here.


In real life, both sides are constantly thinking and working and acting intelligently. Sometimes they make a wrong decision based on bad information, but what's rarer is for someone to have good information and be a complete idiot. In general, those people rarely end up in positions of power. It happens sometimes... but it is the statistical outlier.

Because of Blizzard's writing, though, we don't have intelligent people making decisions. We just have arbitrary nonsense and a lot of Tell and not Show.
Tyrande = Jaina 2.0

Peaceful, then when struck by tragedy becomes blind with rage
11/07/2018 05:51 PMPosted by Totenkof
Peaceful, then when struck by tragedy becomes blind with rage


Tyrande has never been peaceful what the hell are you talking about.
i guess that you mean malfurion.
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It's probably not so dire for the Horde in Kalimdor. Despite Malfurion opening a legendary can of whoop-!@# alongside the Druids, Siege of Lordaeron super-gouged the Alliance. If it's anything like the battle of Vienna, a small sum of soldiers with the defenses of a fortress versus an overwhelming amount of enemies spells out disaster for the enemy attempting to overcome the fortress' defenses.


While you're not wrong, we're not necessarily talking about a full blown assault on Kalimdor. Right now, the Night Elves are interested in pushing the Horde out of Darkshore and Ashenvale, two places that the Night Elves have (despite the questionable direction the War of Thorns story telling) a distinct advantage.

The Horde isn't holding out in any great holds or keeps. They're exposed, fighting on reinvigorated Night Elves terms.


They do have a hold, it's the target of the Warfront. It might not be as fortified as the Keep in the Arathi Highlands, though it does have the advantage of being on a shore line with a stationed navy, so any attack on its fortifications will not have any element of surprise, nor any cover to survive ranged attacks.

Be that as it may that the Night Elves are fighting on familiar terrain, some of the chief concerns on Tyrande's plan is that:

A) Without a port, they can't bring in reinforcements or resources. With the Alliance strained across multiple fronts, they can't afford to assist the attack and bring in more to fill out what's lost. The Horde can. War in the olden times is a numbers game, with advantages and disadvantages to weigh. Even guerilla fighting is costly and doomed to failure without reinforcements. Without those resupply lines or reinforcements, they are a finite force versus a force that can always throw more numbers at the problem, and a finite force's numbers will eventually dwindle into a number that does not allow them to protect themselves if attacked with an invading force, regardless of how many they scratch off from the enemy's roster.

Even if, say, the Druids shaved off the need for medical and food, they're going to need;

Workers to gather lumber, build defenses for when they eventually need to sleep, repair/create arms and armors, or rally for an attack. Defenses are crucial, even for a mobile army, as a lack of walls can make for a disastrous situation if the enemy finds and raids the camp.

Officers to get a lay of the field, weigh what would be most effective to strike and commit resources to destroying said objective. Often times, if these officers lead in the field and not from a lance board, they die in battle and need replacing.

Soldiers, as battles are taxing on numbers and there must be a certain amount of people to wage war.

All of these need replenishing via a port.

B) There is no tactical advantage to retaking Darkshore. There is no resource or high profile target that makes the dividing and expenditure of all these assets worthwhile. While it 'could' provide benefit eventually by providing the Alliance a port to Kalimdor to wage war on the Horde and harass them out of their lumber, they'd still need to be able to hold the territory long enough to establish said port and hold out long enough until the Alliance can afford to reinforce them (which is the main problem, they can't and likely won't for some time), it is a massive cost that cannot be paid for just yet.

The reclamation of Darkshore should come last, as the Arathi Highlands is the home seat of the Defilers and a huge amount of territory that allows the Alliance more wiggle room to work with as they aim to capture the last Horde major city in the Eastern Kingdoms, Silvermoon City.

When the Eastern Kingdoms is under total control, all forces can be committed to attacking Kalimdor to reclaim Darkshore, claim Ashenvale and begin to starve out Orgrimmar (or attack it, if the druids in the Horde are still loyal after the burning of a world tree and grow food inside Orgrimmar. Or mages. Mages can conjure food.).

But by splitting the gilnean brigade and the night elf forces from the Alliance armies, the Arathi Highlands is in jeopardy as they're being reduced to conscripts and are no longer getting reinforcements. Divide and rule is a potent tactic and textbook for a reason. As Tyrande is an old and experienced leader, there might be some qualms that despite her experience, she's giving the enemy just that.

Of course, she could simply not care and let the Alliance lose its fronts for the sake of reclaiming her lands, though if she could do that on her own and with her army, why would the night elves join the Alliance to begin with? They would've never needed assistance against the Horde in Kalimdor.
11/07/2018 03:55 PMPosted by Sarîa
Can't believe I'm saying this but I think Anduin ( oh geez) is more in the right. Tyrande is coming off as being unreasonable. I really want to be on Tyrande's side. Forces are stretched thin and she is expecting Anduin to drop everything for her? Selfish much? This seems like same story in MoP where Tyrande needed to learn "A little Patience" except this time she really does.


Quite a few of us noticed that this could easily become a much worse version of A Little Patience, it seems, lol. I really hope that's not the case, it was bad enough the first time. This time it is on an even grander scale.
Tyrande
11/07/2018 11:58 PMPosted by Gladwell
Workers to gather lumber, build defenses for when they eventually need to sleep, repair/create arms and armors, or rally for an attack. Defenses are crucial, even for a mobile army, as a lack of walls can make for a disastrous situation if the enemy finds and raids the camp.
Hi there, have you played a little game called Warcraft 3? https://wow.gamepedia.com/Wisp

11/07/2018 11:58 PMPosted by Gladwell
Officers to get a lay of the field, weigh what would be most effective to strike and commit resources to destroying said objective. Often times, if these officers lead in the field and not from a lance board, they die in battle and need replacing.
Welcome to Warcraft. If Blizzard decides the night elves have those they do. As I said earlier, trying to play the tactics and logistics game in this setting is a joke. Even if they don't have any it won't in any way contribute to the canonical win/loss the story deals them.
This is actually one of the strong points in BFA's story, tbh.

After years of all the Alliance races getting along and being bestest friends with one another, it's high time we started seeing those weenies turn on each other for a change.
Claiming half the Broken Isles, trying to reach out to the Court of Farondis and Val'sharah druids (being closer to the Eastern Kingdoms) would have been a far wiser course of action. The night elves are also very familiar with the territories there.

I thought maybe the kaldorei wanted to deprive Horde of the chance to use Darkshore's resources, but don't they control most of Ashenvale, so that point is moot. Tyrande could have waited a few more weeks until attack on Zandalar was successful, then have whole of Alliance join the assault on Kalimdor.
Anduin is in the right. Honestly the scene makes Tyrande look bad. The Alliance is fighting a war on multiple fronts. It's not like there are a bunch of soldiers playing cards at the barracks. Anduin simply does not have the troops to spare. As a 10,000 year old military commander Tyrande should know this. Giving Anduin crap for not giving her troops he does not have makes her seem like a spoiled teenager telling her parents she hates them because they can't afford to get her a new iPhone for Christmas.

Also you don't need to retake Darkshore to stop the horde from making use of it. Using the guerrilla tactics the night elves are known for to cut the supply lines would work just as well. Stormwind soldiers are not known for their stealth and would probably just get in the way anyway.
Depends on whether the Alliance wins. If they win she opened a new front, forced the Horde to further divide their limited forces battling the Night Elves on their home turf. If the Alliance loses, she robbed Alliance High Command of troops that could have made the difference on an irrational campaign of vengeance.
Hmm ... I think Genn is right.

That there isn't a clear right or wrong answer to this issue. Anduin was thinking tactically (and based on Genn's comment about "Recruiting Farmers" in "Lost Honor" I refuse to give Anduin credit for such an obvious conclusion), Tyrande was thinking emotionally (you can't have her running off to become the "Avatar of Elune's Vengeance" and say that was a "tactical choice"; when it could have killed her).

Out of Tyrande and Anduin, the person who turns out to be right will likely depend on the "long-term" results. ATM, Tyrande is right ... she pushed back the Horde in Darkshore and created a foothold on Kalimdor. However, she repositioned resources that the Alliance depended on (Herself, Malf, Kaldorei, and Gilnean forces) so it could come back to bite the Alliance as a whole in the !@# down the road.

Only time will tell if the Alliance being stretched too thin will hurt them.
Both, although I lean towards Tyrande more.

Anduin kept pressure on Zandalar and its navy. In counter point, he gave the Zandalari a reason to join the Horde and seek revenge on the Alliance.

Tyrande impeded Sylvannas from raising all the dead sentinels and bolstering the Forsaken. Unlike Anduin, I do not see how this would backfire, unless Tyrande gives the Dark Sentinels a reason to join the Forsaken.

11/08/2018 05:02 AMPosted by Droité
ATM, Tyrande is right ... she pushed back the Horde in Darkshore and created a foothold on Kalimdor. However, she repositioned resources that the Alliance depended on (Herself, Malf, Kaldorei, and Gilnean forces) so it could come back to bite the Alliance as a whole in the !@# down the road.

Only time will tell if the Alliance being stretched too thin will hurt them.


It is not just foothold, it is denying the Forsaken access to corpses to recruit. A group of corpses largely composed of NE warriors, with 10,000 years of experience. The wood/land/etc. seems inconsequential compared to a trained army that barely needs to eat/sleep, if at all.

For that reason, Tyrande may be correct in the long run, because she partially denied Sylvannas a powerful army, whereas Anduin push Zandalar into the Horde.
11/08/2018 12:00 AMPosted by Verlius
Quite a few of us noticed that this could easily become a much worse version of A Little Patience, it seems, lol. I really hope that's not the case, it was bad enough the first time. This time it is on an even grander scale.


It might be, however it is possible that the recoil of her actions wont be felt on the Darkshore front, but rather on other Alliance fronts. One could easily argue that her decision to be decisive "For the Kaldorei" is working in some regards; especially with her Night Warrior power boost. However, her decision to be decisive may hurt the rest of the Alliance (my guess is that if there is a second-wind from the Horde Kul Tiras is on the chopping block).
Anduin should have reached out to the Zandalari at the beginning of this war, safely returning their princess to them in a gesture of goodwill (she wasn't supposed to leave anyway, she was defying her father's will) and offer to help them much like both factions did with the pandaren.

If they point-blank refuse him for whatever reason, then he could do the same thing. But uncharacteristically for him, he didn't even seem to TRY to negotiate.
11/06/2018 09:09 PMPosted by Sivnea
Sure she might retake Darkshore but if she can hold it afterwards while cut off from the rest of the Alliance because the logistics to aid her campaign just aren't there yet then I'll be surprised. And if she does retake Darkshore what's stopping Sylvanus just saying '!@#$ it' again and plaguing Darkshore?


She's plaguing the land now.

That's what this thread is missing. It is not a matter of "Well, wait and we will get it eventually. Maybe".

It's a matter of "If we wait, this land will be uninhabitable. It will be corrupt, evil, blighted and dead". This was made pretty clear in the lead up to the Night Warrior scenario, with rivers running green with blight, clouds of poison gas, and forsaken characters actively saying they are blighting the forests.

And I don't know if I recollect Ashenvale or Darkshore being particularly rich in minerals. They probably have the typical amount for your average region in Azeroth. And are there oil rigs or goblins in Darkshore on the PTR for the warfront?


Ashenvale itself is vital to the production of The Blight. Forsaken have been in Ashenvale working on that since Vanilla, and they were still there getting stuff in Cataclysm. Considering production of the Horde Superweapon depends on the zones, yeah.. It's a pretty big deal.

But I don't actually think anyone on the Alliance side "knows" thats what the Forsaken were up to.
11/08/2018 06:15 AMPosted by Ferlion
She's plaguing the land now.

That's what this thread is missing. It is not a matter of "Well, wait and we will get it eventually. Maybe".

It's a matter of "If we wait, this land will be uninhabitable. It will be corrupt, evil, blighted and dead". This was made pretty clear in the lead up to the Night Warrior scenario, with rivers running green with blight, clouds of poison gas, and forsaken characters actively saying they are blighting the forests.

This is basically what I meant to reply to a Human poster a few pages back (but I got busy and forgot), saying Tyrande is wrong, and she should basically be doing whatever Anduin tells her to.

But it's a pretty potent trope among Human fans to want to reclaim Lordaeron. Even though Lordaeron is a blighted, ruined husk.

Tyrande is trying to prevent that on Kalimdor. She's trying to reclaim Night Elven lands while they're still worth saving.

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