The Memories of Derek Proudmoore patch 8.1

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Super nice to be ultra vindicated re: Sylvanas willingly and intentionally enslaving the undead.
I mean at this point why not just resurrect/brainwash the dead loved ones of all of the Alliance leaders as some attempted psychological warfare? Why stop at Derek?

-Liam Greymane
-Dagran Thaurissan
-Tiffin Wrynn
-Gelbin Mekkatorque(assuming he bites it)
-Maraad

...to name a few. Holding your loved ones hostage only to reveal they've been made to comply with Sylvanas and their out to kill you sounds like it could inflict a lot more carnage than just messing with the Proudmoores.
11/07/2018 04:14 AMPosted by Pyrogar
Can WE have an option to free him, please, and NOT be complicit in re-conditioning a man to murder his family in their sleep?


Maybe. But not until after he's been thoroughly conditioned and then only so you can become an unwitting pawn in Sylvanas' plan.

11/07/2018 04:37 AMPosted by Detrik
I mean at this point why not just resurrect/brainwash the dead loved ones of all of the Alliance leaders as some attempted psychological warfare? Why stop at Derek?


Derek seems to be requiring alot of effort and is coming with a steep diplomatic cost. It's probably not cost effective outside of these circumstances.
11/07/2018 04:37 AMPosted by Detrik

-Liam Greymane
-Dagran Thaurissan
-Tiffin Wrynn
-Gelbin Mekkatorque(assuming he bites it)
-Maraad

[/quote]

To be fair, I think Maraad is a bit out of reach.
11/06/2018 09:16 PMPosted by Kazala
11/06/2018 08:15 PMPosted by Droité
Not sure what "comfort" Baine could give him in this situation without outright committing treason and either freeing him, killing him, or warning Jaina about him.
So maybe he should grow a backbone and outright commit treason instead of waiting for Saurfang to do it for him so he can be the useless bandwagon crapbox he always has been.


And he still could. He has enough ammunition to move against her after his questline in 8.1, but unless "grow a backbone" is only an excuse to have him killed off, then odds are the solution he'd choose out of the three (being a huge, unsubtle, flashy bull-man) is getting a message to Jaina and preparing her for Derek's arrival (which is within his MO to do).

This would allow Jaina to prepare for either killing Derek, or recovering Derek and isolating him while they attempt to deprogram him. The issue is, if this is the route they went, the Horde PC would be unlikely to know about it; and we'd most likely get evidence of such an act from the Alliance side, or a comment Jaina makes. Regardless, he'd still be labeled a traitor by the Horde playerbase.

EDIT: That's the catch 22 for Saurfang and Baine atm, they either:

- 1) Challenge her to a Mak'gora (and she will cheat if she even believes for a second that they could even win by luck), guaranteeing they'd die.
- 2) They commit to open rebellion with her to remove her from power, heavily damaging the Horde and weakening it to the Alliance (and we don't know if that is what Saurfang is doing yet).
- 3) Or, they do more subtle approaches to undermining her, but they're considered spineless and become enemies of the Horde playerbase. They either die, or they become "unsalvageable"; if they move against Sylvie.
11/07/2018 01:54 AMPosted by Roghter
One good thing though is the amount of effort being employed to mind control Tandred should put to bed, for the 8th time, any thoughts about the Forsaken using mind control on a regular basis.


What makes you say that? At the same time Derek is being raised, right around the corner and down the block you have Darkshore happening, where mass mind control of the newly raised is literally the only reasonable explanation for what's happening.

Here's a tip: the argument comes from the jarring dissonance between CDEV swearing up, down, sideways, center, and widdershins that the Forsaken don't use mind control, and then constantly putting scenarios into the game where mind control is the only explanation for people acting the way they do that makes even the barest lick of sense. They even had to asspull the whole "frenzied state" explanation for a Q&A, and don't even hew to that on a consistent basis.
11/07/2018 04:27 AMPosted by Treng
Super nice to be ultra vindicated re: Sylvanas willingly and intentionally enslaving the undead.


This seems to destroy your previous theory that the Undead Sylvanas raises are mind controlled from the start.

She has to do it afterwards - with great effort - on an individual basis.

The whole leadership is present for the attempt at mind control of just one person, precisely because it is so rare and hard to do.

We always knew Sylvanas could mind control her enemies. But at least the false head canon of her mind controlling the Forsaken she raises AS she raises them is laid to rest.
11/07/2018 05:19 AMPosted by Kelrexia
What makes you say that? At the same time Derek is being raised, right around the corner and down the block you have Darkshore happening, where mass mind control of the newly raised is literally the only reasonable explanation for what's happening.


Because the amount of working going into mind controlling Derek Proudmoore would make it very obvious if it was being done to even 50 people simultaneously, let alone a significant size of the Forsaken population.

11/07/2018 05:19 AMPosted by Kelrexia
Here's a tip:


And we've been over Darkshore, according to raised Warden dialogue, Blizzard has gone with an unreasonable explanation. Nobody likes it but the crime here isn't mind control, it's bad writing.

I'm very aware of where the confusion comes from. Some players would rather believe an okay story that confirms what they want to believe and makes sense even if it's wrong. Of that group of players, some of them think believing something hard enough is enough to make it true.

Unfortunately what we have here is a bad story that contradicts what they want to believe and doesn't make sense that we know is true thanks to the cdev statements that you mentioned and if we're being honest, the text of the story itself in every occasion.
11/07/2018 05:44 AMPosted by Cursewords
This seems to destroy your previous theory that the Undead Sylvanas raises are mind controlled from the start.
No it doesn't.

Sylvanas wasn't trying to restore personality to the skellingtons. She needs personality for her plan with Derek to work.
I don't know why I have to keep repeating myself.

Take that sad sack of bones, put him in a cannon, and shoot him at his sister!

Do this for me, Blizz, and all will be forgiven.
11/07/2018 05:05 AMPosted by Droité
And he still could.
I would put good money on Baine doing nothing of value until he has Saurfang or some similar figure to cower behind.

What's going on right now is the same sort of thing that happened in the run-up to Theramore. Baine is surrounded by other leaders who feel the same way he does. He could put legitimate political pressure on the Warchief, but he backs down. Always.

I don't really understand why folks keep bringing up Mak'gora as the only above-board action Baine could take. Mak'gora is an orcish tradition. Cairne observed it because he was challenging an Orc Warchief at a time when orc culture dominated the Horde, but that's no longer the case.

The Horde is already losing the war. If Baine said, "hey Sylvie, you can abandon this plot and we can all keep fighting the Alliance together, or you can go through with it and fight the Alliance without the Tauren, the Zandalari, the Highmountain, the Nightborne, the Darkspear, and whoever else I can convince to bail on you", what's her next move? Kill him in front of everyone and start a civil war on the spot?

We'll never know, because Baine is a worthless coward.
11/07/2018 06:11 AMPosted by Kazala
11/07/2018 05:05 AMPosted by Droité
And he still could.
I would put good money on Baine doing nothing of value until he has Saurfang or some similar figure to cower behind.

What's going on right now is the same sort of thing that happened in the run-up to Theramore. Baine is surrounded by other leaders who feel the same way he does. He could put legitimate political pressure on the Warchief, but he backs down. Always.

I don't really understand why folks keep bringing up Mak'gora as the only above-board action Baine could take. Mak'gora is an orcish tradition. Cairne observed it because he was challenging an Orc Warchief at a time when orc culture dominated the Horde, but that's no longer the case.

The Horde is already losing the war. If Baine said, "hey Sylvie, you can abandon this plot and we can all keep fighting the Alliance together, or you can go through with it and fight the Alliance without the Tauren, the Zandalari, the Highmountain, the Nightborne, the Darkspear, and whoever else I can convince to bail on you", what's her next move? Kill him in front of everyone and start a civil war on the spot?

We'll never know, because Baine is a worthless coward.
Pretty much exactly all of this. Baine may be a complete wuss, but he isn’t stupid.....on second thought, he kinda is, but that’s besides the point!

People are expecting Baine or Saurfang to challange Sylvanas to mak’gora is just a completely idiotic idea. Everyone knows Sylv is going to find an underhanded way to tip the fight in her favor, and even if not cheating she’s still been shown to be far more powerful than mere warriors like Baine or Saurfang. So expecting them to duel her is like expecting a insect to not get squashed by hitting it with a hammer it’s an unrealistic expectation and deeply, you know exactly how it will turn out.
11/07/2018 07:18 AMPosted by Pyrogar

People are expecting Baine or Saurfang to challange Sylvanas to mak’gora is just a completely idiotic idea. Everyone knows Sylv is going to find an underhanded way to tip the fight in her favor, and even if not cheating she’s still been shown to be far more powerful than mere warriors like Baine or Saurfang. So expecting them to duel her is like expecting a insect to not get squashed by hitting it with a hammer it’s an unrealistic expectation and deeply, you know exactly how it will turn out.


Which I'm certain is what people actually want. They want these characters to die, but they want them to die 'honorably'.
11/07/2018 07:23 AMPosted by Daiza
11/07/2018 07:18 AMPosted by Pyrogar

People are expecting Baine or Saurfang to challange Sylvanas to mak’gora is just a completely idiotic idea. Everyone knows Sylv is going to find an underhanded way to tip the fight in her favor, and even if not cheating she’s still been shown to be far more powerful than mere warriors like Baine or Saurfang. So expecting them to duel her is like expecting a insect to not get squashed by hitting it with a hammer it’s an unrealistic expectation and deeply, you know exactly how it will turn out.


Which I'm certain is what people actually want. They want these characters to die, but they want them to die 'honorably'.
Eh, I just want them to die. Honorably, dishonorably, on the toilet. Whatever.
11/06/2018 08:12 PMPosted by Kazala
Ha! Classic Baine. Don't release Derek, don't even address him or try to comfort him, just make your impotent statement of protest while he wails in misery and then wander off somewhere.

I !@#$ing HATE that guy.
To be fair, if he did release him, you'd have a ton of Horde players screaming bloody murder about how Baine, on top of being a useless mofo, is now a traitor working with the Alliance.

So either way, people would still hate him. :P
Where is Nathanos in all this? Why doesn't he say anything? Why no reaction from him, I honestly want to know his feelings on this. How does he feel watching his Queen slowly descend into complete madness. I'm disappointed.

Don't tell me he's just gonna be kneeling at Syl's feet the whole time like he always does.
God, he's so boring. Someone give that man some more character development pronto.
11/07/2018 07:40 AMPosted by Calixto
Don't tell me he's just gonna be kneeling at Syl's feet the whole time like he always does.


that is correct, he is exactly doing that.
"we are perfoming the ritual, no dot disturb" something like that.
11/07/2018 07:30 AMPosted by Calixto
To be fair, if he did release him, you'd have a ton of Horde players screaming bloody murder about how Baine, on top of being a useless mofo, is now a traitor working with the Alliance.

So either way, people would still hate him. :P
Some would hate him for it. Others wouldn't.

That's an upgrade from the current state, where everyone hates him.

Some people want Baine to take a more aggressive stance vs the Alliance. Some people want Baine to stand up and fight Sylvanas for the soul of the Horde. No one wants Baine to be a grumbling submissive pissant.
I just want him to die, is that so wrong?
11/07/2018 09:06 AMPosted by Darethy
I just want him to die, is that so wrong?
And then he gets raised, and becomes the new Forsaken faction leader.

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