5% wasn’t necessary!

Hunter
Starting to feel the 5% a bit more as gear gets higher. I know BM is not bad by any means but as I get higher ilvl it does feel like we are slowly falling behind and by the end of the expansion it might get bad. I wish mm wasn’t a dumpster fire :-/
On November the 6th, the first ever +21 dungeon in BfA was completed.

The line up was:
DK Tank
Monk Healer
DH DPS
Rogue Subt
BM Hunter

It seems to me like the spec is scaling just fine at the highest level.
This is probably your go to argument isn’t it even though it has 0 to do with a scaling issue lol
11/14/2018 09:47 AMPosted by Barreck
This is probably your go to argument isn’t it even though it has 0 to do with a scaling issue lol


do you realize that a bm hunter would have to have competitive dps for a +21 group? if bm wasn't a good choice, they would take any other good aoe class. you're post just shows that you don't know what you're talking about.

to summarize it for you, the hunter needs to scale decently to be considered for that spot.
11/14/2018 09:47 AMPosted by Barreck
This is probably your go to argument isn’t it even though it has 0 to do with a scaling issue lol

Do you think this avg ilvl 385 group going for literal world records would pick BM if it was falling behind other classes as it goes up in ilvl? Use your brain for once. The reason why you'll find yourself topping the charts less often as you go up in ilvl is because you're playing with better players, that's all there is to it.
You both seem to be missing the part where I said slowly falling. Yes this tier is fine, the point is the 5% was a knee jerk reaction and wasn’t needed. If we are still in the same position at the end of the next raid tier I’ll eat my words but having been through it before I am betting we continue to dwindle down after the next tier.
11/14/2018 10:10 AMPosted by Barreck
You both seem to be missing the part where I said slowly falling. Yes this tier is fine, the point is the 5% was a knee jerk reaction and wasn’t needed. If we are still in the same position at the end of the next raid tier I’ll eat my words but having been through it before I am betting we continue to dwindle down after the next tier.

Okay, so let's leave a couple things clear:

-385 ilvl BM Hunters are literally top-tier dps, otherwise they wouldn't be breaking literal world records.
-Next Raid Tier is 400 for Heroic and 415 for Mythic.

Do I have any reason to believe that a literal top-tier dps will be falling down to trash tier within 15 item levels for no reason other than "It happened in Legion under a set of completely different situations and xpac mechanics"?

The reason why BM didn't scale well in Legion was because pet didn't scale with Hunters weap power. That got fixed now, that's it, that's a closed issue.
11/14/2018 09:41 AMPosted by Orangesilk
On November the 6th, the first ever +21 dungeon in BfA was completed.

The line up was:
DK Tank
Monk Healer
DH DPS
Rogue Subt
BM Hunter

It seems to me like the spec is scaling just fine at the highest level.

At what time did a five men Mythic plus consider the highest level in WOW? I thought a 20 men Mythic raid is consider a good indicator for how a class/spec is doing in term of pve.

To answer the original post question , BM hunter have always fell behind when they are compare to other class as a expansion drag on. I think it mainly because BM hunter relies so much of their damage from their pet, and Blizzard still have not completely fix the pet AI and pathing since Vanilla.
11/14/2018 10:36 AMPosted by Orangesilk
11/14/2018 10:10 AMPosted by Barreck
You both seem to be missing the part where I said slowly falling. Yes this tier is fine, the point is the 5% was a knee jerk reaction and wasn’t needed. If we are still in the same position at the end of the next raid tier I’ll eat my words but having been through it before I am betting we continue to dwindle down after the next tier.

Okay, so let's leave a couple things clear:

-385 ilvl BM Hunters are literally top-tier dps, otherwise they wouldn't be breaking literal world records.
-Next Raid Tier is 400 for Heroic and 415 for Mythic.

Do I have any reason to believe that a literal top-tier dps will be falling down to trash tier within 15 item levels for no reason other than "It happened in Legion under a set of completely different situations and xpac mechanics"?

The reason why BM didn't scale well in Legion was because pet didn't scale with Hunters weap power. That got fixed now, that's it, that's a closed issue.


You’re a very angry person aren’t you? Have a drink or a smoke and relax a little bit! Life is short and I worry about your sanity and health. Show me where hunters are top tier in a raid scenario please. Believe it or not not everyone is a hardcore mythic plus player. Plenty are raiders and those logs paint a different story. Those logs showed a class performing exceptionally well the first week while everyone learned mechanics and now show a class falling down quite a bit as people know the fights. If you’re not intelligent enough to figure this out then I’ll say it again. The point is about the 5% nerf was not needed and a knee jerk reaction. Are you getting me now cupcake?

I’m not top tier or hardcore by any means but you obviously don’t play hunter at any meaningful level so it’s a bit hard to take your anger and assumptions at any kind of a serious level. Food for thought
11/14/2018 09:41 AMPosted by Orangesilk
On November the 6th, the first ever +21 dungeon in BfA was completed.

The line up was:
DK Tank
Monk Healer
DH DPS
Rogue Subt
BM Hunter

It seems to me like the spec is scaling just fine at the highest level.


I wouldn't be surprised if the Hunter was brought more because of the enrage dispel and bloodlust than the actual dps he provided.
11/14/2018 11:32 AMPosted by Grombo
11/14/2018 09:41 AMPosted by Orangesilk
On November the 6th, the first ever +21 dungeon in BfA was completed.

The line up was:
DK Tank
Monk Healer
DH DPS
Rogue Subt
BM Hunter

It seems to me like the spec is scaling just fine at the highest level.


I wouldn't be surprised if the Hunter was brought more because of the enrage dispel and bloodlust than the actual dps he provided.


So the first ever +21 was essentially 4 manned outside of a dispel and bloodlust? And the other 4 group members knowingly handicapped their group for it?

Crap like this is why I keep coming back to forums.
11/14/2018 12:21 PMPosted by Enclave
So the first ever +21 was essentially 4 manned outside of a dispel and bloodlust? And the other 4 group members knowingly handicapped their group for it?

Crap like this is why I keep coming back to forums.


They didn't handicap their group for it. 5% more haste than drums and I imagine dispelling enrage is a big deal for a +20. BM hunter isn't horrible, even if it's damage is a little low. They'd probably be handicapping the group if they got another DH, even though he'd probably deal more damage and have more cleave.
11/14/2018 10:48 AMPosted by Barreck
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Okay, so let's leave a couple things clear:

-385 ilvl BM Hunters are literally top-tier dps, otherwise they wouldn't be breaking literal world records.
-Next Raid Tier is 400 for Heroic and 415 for Mythic.

Do I have any reason to believe that a literal top-tier dps will be falling down to trash tier within 15 item levels for no reason other than "It happened in Legion under a set of completely different situations and xpac mechanics"?

The reason why BM didn't scale well in Legion was because pet didn't scale with Hunters weap power. That got fixed now, that's it, that's a closed issue.


You’re a very angry person aren’t you? Have a drink or a smoke and relax a little bit! Life is short and I worry about your sanity and health. Show me where hunters are top tier in a raid scenario please. Believe it or not not everyone is a hardcore mythic plus player. Plenty are raiders and those logs paint a different story. Those logs showed a class performing exceptionally well the first week while everyone learned mechanics and now show a class falling down quite a bit as people know the fights. If you’re not intelligent enough to figure this out then I’ll say it again. The point is about the 5% nerf was not needed and a knee jerk reaction. Are you getting me now cupcake?

I’m not top tier or hardcore by any means but you obviously don’t play hunter at any meaningful level so it’s a bit hard to take your anger and assumptions at any kind of a serious level. Food for thought

Holy hell, you're angry, take a chill pill. No need to go for petty personal attacks. It just makes you look worse.

Anyways, let's look at the mythic logs:

Overall in M Uldir BM Hunters are 14/24 out of all dps, and 5/11 out of ranged DPS which means roughly middle of the pack. That seems actually balanced to me tbh.

Then you look at # of parses, BM Hunter is literally the spec with the most parses in M Uldir. Raid Leaders across all of WoW are asking for BM more than any other spec in WoW, that sounds pretty damn solid to me.

Was the 5% nerf necessary? Maybe not. Did it impact BM to the point of making them bad? definitely not. It's a spec that's strong in Raiding and Absolute top-tier in M+, I don't see what's there to complain about. The sky isn't falling, the spec is good. There is little to no evidence to show that the spec has bad scaling as of right now. We just saw a spec go from absolute best in raids to middle of the pack after a nerf which is... Pretty dang normal and balanced.

11/14/2018 10:45 AMPosted by Bloodtone

At what time did a five men Mythic plus consider the highest level in WOW? I thought a 20 men Mythic raid is consider a good indicator for how a class/spec is doing in term of pve.

Well, Mythic Uldir was completed a while ago already (By a bunch of BMs no less) so what the high-level competitive kinda guys are gunning for right now is records at very high keys. A +21 key on time IS the highest level of WoW right now, it's a still unbroken world record. It literally is the hardest content being completed by players right now. Not to mention, M+ is a huge part of the endgame for most players, you can choose to ignore it and raid-only, sure, but it's there and it's just as challenging if not even more. If a spec is viable in a +21 Key, it's viable ANYWHERE ELSE in PvE as of right now.
Well, Mythic Uldir was completed a while ago already (By a bunch of BMs no less) so what the high-level competitive kinda guys are gunning for right now is records at very high keys. A +21 key on time IS the highest level of WoW right now, it's a still unbroken world record. It literally is the hardest content being completed by players right now. Not to mention, M+ is a huge part of the endgame for most players, you can choose to ignore it and raid-only, sure, but it's there and it's just as challenging if not even more. If a spec is viable in a +21 Key, it's viable ANYWHERE ELSE in PvE as of right now.

Your logic is just plain nonsense. For example, a DK solo killed the first boss of Uldir, Taloc, this feat is much more harder than your 5 men Mythic +21. Does that mean a DK is best and viable ANYWHERE ELSE in PVE? Well according to your logic the DK is best.

You don't just look at the 0.0001% of player that complete a Mythic +21 to get a good indication of how the class is best or not. You have to look at a more larger sample which in this case is Uldir Mythic clear.
...

You’re a very angry person aren’t you? Have a drink or a smoke and relax a little bit! Life is short and I worry about your sanity and health. Show me where hunters are top tier in a raid scenario please. Believe it or not not everyone is a hardcore mythic plus player. Plenty are raiders and those logs paint a different story. Those logs showed a class performing exceptionally well the first week while everyone learned mechanics and now show a class falling down quite a bit as people know the fights. If you’re not intelligent enough to figure this out then I’ll say it again. The point is about the 5% nerf was not needed and a knee jerk reaction. Are you getting me now cupcake?

I’m not top tier or hardcore by any means but you obviously don’t play hunter at any meaningful level so it’s a bit hard to take your anger and assumptions at any kind of a serious level. Food for thought

Holy hell, you're angry, take a chill pill. No need to go for petty personal attacks. It just makes you look worse.

Anyways, let's look at the mythic logs:

Overall in M Uldir BM Hunters are 14/24 out of all dps, and 5/11 out of ranged DPS which means roughly middle of the pack. That seems actually balanced to me tbh.

Then you look at # of parses, BM Hunter is literally the spec with the most parses in M Uldir. Raid Leaders across all of WoW are asking for BM more than any other spec in WoW, that sounds pretty damn solid to me.

Was the 5% nerf necessary? Maybe not. Did it impact BM to the point of making them bad? definitely not. It's a spec that's strong in Raiding and Absolute top-tier in M+, I don't see what's there to complain about. The sky isn't falling, the spec is good. There is little to no evidence to show that the spec has bad scaling as of right now. We just saw a spec go from absolute best in raids to middle of the pack after a nerf which is... Pretty dang normal and balanced.

11/14/2018 10:45 AMPosted by Bloodtone

At what time did a five men Mythic plus consider the highest level in WOW? I thought a 20 men Mythic raid is consider a good indicator for how a class/spec is doing in term of pve.

Well, Mythic Uldir was completed a while ago already (By a bunch of BMs no less) so what the high-level competitive kinda guys are gunning for right now is records at very high keys. A +21 key on time IS the highest level of WoW right now, it's a still unbroken world record. It literally is the hardest content being completed by players right now. Not to mention, M+ is a huge part of the endgame for most players, you can choose to ignore it and raid-only, sure, but it's there and it's just as challenging if not even more. If a spec is viable in a +21 Key, it's viable ANYWHERE ELSE in PvE as of right now.


You alone called bm top tier dps and I asked for proof of said top tier dps at more than 0.0001% as bloodtone said above and you proved my point. We are very middle of the road dps now as you yourself pointed out so again as the title clearly said, the nerf was not needed. You couldn’t wait to chime in and prove how smart you were and you have yet to make any valid point other than back up my original claim to begin with. You got a little butt hurt when I poked fun at your reasoning so I guess I’ll let that slide but if you don’t raid at a consistent level then you can’t really speak for the overall welfare of the class lol. Mythics are fine if you’re into them but balance is not built around them I promise you.
Oh, and what point did I say we aren’t viable?
As long as bosses die and you're contributing to kills, does it all really matter in the end? We're literally one of the most played classes and specs right now...
11/14/2018 01:51 PMPosted by Moodakris
As long as bosses die and you're contributing to kills, does it all really matter in the end? We're literally one of the most played classes and specs right now...


Yes it does, unneeded nerfs are why we reached the lowest point in Legion. Where any dps class/spec was better than us in ToV, I don't want to have that happen again.
11/14/2018 09:30 AMPosted by Barreck
Starting to feel the 5% a bit more as gear gets higher. I know BM is not bad by any means but as I get higher ilvl it does feel like we are slowly falling behind and by the end of the expansion it might get bad. I wish mm wasn’t a dumpster fire :-/


Where are you starting to feel this?
Your most recent Fetid kill has 3 hunters in the top 5 dps, of which 2 (including you) are BM.

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