Justifiable?

Story Forum
I began BfA totally against Sylvanas. We just finished defeating the Burning Legion, and now we're destroying ourselves. I hated to see the Warchief running the Horde I love into the ground for some selfish, hidden reason, which I believed was to make more Forsaken.

I'm halfway through the War Questline, and it's given me much to think on; especially after reading the "Good War" short story, I believe. I'm coming to the conclusion that, all things considered, Sylvanas' war was totally justifiable. She knew peace could not last and knew that she had to make a home for the Horde; she had to strike first to preserve her people. Had Saurfang killed Malfurion, she would have done that. Maybe she's not the evil villain Garrosh was; maybe, just maybe, she's actually a decent Warchief.

Lok'tar O'gar
Run for your life and don't ever look back.
11/14/2018 11:05 AMPosted by Deathisfinal
Run for your life and don't ever look back.


And I ran
I ran so far away
I just ran
Ran all night and day
Couldn't get away
Couldn't get away
Stop playing now if you want to like the Horde. Blizzard doesn't want you to like the Horde, and they will show you by the time you finish all the quests. You are playing the game wrong if you like your faction.
11/14/2018 11:09 AMPosted by Hahahahahaha
Stop playing now if you want to like the Horde. Blizzard doesn't want you to like the Horde, and they will show you by the time you finish all the quests. You are playing the game wrong if you like your faction.

All the quests as in the War Quests? Please no spoilers.
As for the OP, Saurfang also thought it was justified.

11/14/2018 11:07 AMPosted by Darethy
11/14/2018 11:05 AMPosted by Deathisfinal
Run for your life and don't ever look back.


And I ran
I ran so far away
I just ran
Ran all night and day
Couldn't get away
Couldn't get away


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpP9q6qEmOY
11/14/2018 11:10 AMPosted by Deathisfinal
As for the OP, Saurfang also thought it was justified.

I agree. Justifiable war is a real thing; the Horde had the best reason. The Alliance (*coughGreymanecough*) would never have left the Horde alone. They had to strike and end it before it started.
Justifiable, what a pretty word that ultimately means nothing. For everything and nothing is justifiable.
11/14/2018 11:05 AMPosted by Deathisfinal
Run for your life and don't ever look back.


The nelfs roleplayers are coming
11/14/2018 11:12 AMPosted by Dathretarian
11/14/2018 11:10 AMPosted by Deathisfinal
As for the OP, Saurfang also thought it was justified.

I agree. Justifiable war is a real thing; the Horde had the best reason. The Alliance (*coughGreymanecough*) would never have left the Horde alone. They had to strike and end it before it started.


I see the reasoning for what she did, and its similar to a lot of war leaders in real life. It's the same kind of mentality that people like Curtis Lemay had, the problem is that WoW is by and large a bright and 'cheery' setting about hope.

Windrunners sudden injection of grimdarkness put a lot of people into shock, and it creates the problem where we're now in a total war. The only resolution that makes sense is either the other factions destruction as a result of so much escalation, or both factions broken so throughly they cannot fight one another anymore.
11/14/2018 11:15 AMPosted by Rancore
Justifiable, what a pretty word that ultimately means nothing. For everything and nothing is justifiable.

Justifiable: Able to be shown to be right or reasonable (Source: Oxford English dictionary)
Seams to have a pretty solid meaning. If you want to argue about what is right/reasonable, that's a different issue.
Let me ask you something ... what would the difference be between Saurfang hesitating to Kill Malf long enough for Tyrande to intervene (which happened), and Tyrande simply showing up a few moments earlier and saving Malf anyway? Outside of Saurfang likely getting killed by Tyrande ... not much.

Malf would have still miraculously survived, and Sylvanas would have still been denied "her wound" (which, if you read a Good War she was clearly trying to destroy the NE civilization, which is why she was so irritated that BOTH Malf and Tyrande weren't on the field during "The War of Thornes").

Would she have still burned the Tree? Take a look at this:

“Where is Malfurion’s head, High Overlord?”

“Attached to his body, as far as I know,” he said.

She was not amused. “And where is that?”

Saurfang met her eyes without flinching. “Stormwind, I’d guess. Tyrande intervened and took him away.

It wasn’t often Sylvanas was left speechless.

It didn’t last long. “Malfurion lives?” she snarled. “You let him escape?”

His lips did not smile, but his eyes did. He was happy—happy!—about this. “I could not stop Tyrande. Perhaps you could have.


She may guess what happened, but as far as Sylvanas knows at that moment Tyrande intervened with him taking Malf's head. He was prevented from doing so, and in some ways he was (if you read, Saurfang was deeply conflicted, but hadn't decided on what to do with Malf before he was stopped by Tyrande and Elune); Saurfang however was happy that the choice of what to do was denied to him in the end. She burned the Tree, because Malfurion escaped ... it doesn't matter HOW.
11/14/2018 11:12 AMPosted by Dathretarian
...
I agree. Justifiable war is a real thing; the Horde had the best reason. The Alliance (*coughGreymanecough*) would never have left the Horde alone. They had to strike and end it before it started.


I see the reasoning for what she did, and its similar to a lot of war leaders in real life. It's the same kind of mentality that people like Curtis Lemay had, the problem is that WoW is by and large a bright and 'cheery' setting about hope.

Windrunners sudden injection of grimdarkness put a lot of people into shock, and it creates the problem where we're now in a total war. The only resolution that makes sense is either the other factions destruction as a result of so much escalation, or both factions broken so throughly they cannot fight one another anymore.


Which...*drumroll* wont happen
11/14/2018 11:16 AMPosted by Linoradrin
The nelfs roleplayers are coming
NOPE, JUST A SALTY GNOME.

11/14/2018 11:12 AMPosted by Dathretarian
11/14/2018 11:10 AMPosted by Deathisfinal
As for the OP, Saurfang also thought it was justified.

I agree. Justifiable war is a real thing; the Horde had the best reason. The Alliance (*coughGreymanecough*) would never have left the Horde alone. They had to strike and end it before it started.
Yeah, that'd be great if that were Sylvanas' actual reasoning behind starting said war. And if it were, she'd have held Teldrassil as a bargaining chip instead of burning it to the ground to incite the Alliance to go full-hog against her.

She says peace is impossible, but at the same time murders the Forsaken who try to leave to rejoin their living families. Even Genn says, "Hey I realize the undead are people, not just monsters, and Sylvanas and her machinations are to blame."

Peace with the Horde is possible. Peace with Sylvanas Windrunner is not, and that's her real concern.
but.. if she killed malfurion the entire world should turn against the horde for killing the hero of the world who has been neutral the entire time...
Let me ask you something ... what would the difference be between Saurfang hesitating to Kill Malf long enough for Tyrande to intervene (which happened), and Tyrande simply showing up a few moments earlier and saving Malf anyway? Outside of Saurfang likely getting killed by Tyrande ... not much.

Malf would have still miraculously survived, and Sylvanas would have still been denied "her wound" (which, if you read a Good War she was clearly trying to destroy the NE civilization, which is why she was so irritated that BOTH Malf and Tyrande weren't on the field during "The War of Thornes").

Would she have still burned the Tree? Take a look at this:

“Where is Malfurion’s head, High Overlord?”

“Attached to his body, as far as I know,” he said.

She was not amused. “And where is that?”

Saurfang met her eyes without flinching. “Stormwind, I’d guess. Tyrande intervened and took him away.

It wasn’t often Sylvanas was left speechless.

It didn’t last long. “Malfurion lives?” she snarled. “You let him escape?”

His lips did not smile, but his eyes did. He was happy—happy!—about this. “I could not stop Tyrande. Perhaps you could have.


She may guess what happened, but as far as Sylvanas knows at that moment Tyrande intervened with him taking Malf's head. He was prevented from doing so, and in some ways he was (if you read, he was deeply conflicted, but hadn't decided on what to do with Malf before he was stopped by Tyrande and Elune); Saurfang however was happy that the choice of what to do was denied to him in the end. She burned the Tree, because Malfurion escaped ... it doesn't matter HOW.

Finish that short story. If you do, you clearly see that if Saurfang killed Malfurion, Sylvanas would have simply invaded Teldrassil and seized control. This would have left the Alliance crippled. Instead, she burned it, as this was the only way to wound the Alliance with Mal escaping.
...

I see the reasoning for what she did, and its similar to a lot of war leaders in real life. It's the same kind of mentality that people like Curtis Lemay had, the problem is that WoW is by and large a bright and 'cheery' setting about hope.

Windrunners sudden injection of grimdarkness put a lot of people into shock, and it creates the problem where we're now in a total war. The only resolution that makes sense is either the other factions destruction as a result of so much escalation, or both factions broken so throughly they cannot fight one another anymore.


Which...*drumroll* wont happen


Pretty much. Would I love a examination of World War 2 and post WW2 ideologies with both their good and bad points? With how much I talk about the Soviets, Vietnam, and WW2 itself of course I would. The motivations that drive us to try and drive one another to extinction, that cause us to bide our time until we can take advantage of the more naive nations of the world are fascinating. The evolution of superpowers in the last 70 years and our current political climate is as horrifying as it is interesting, a resolution of such a story where we could do a post mortum of such a world gone to hell and back would be something i'd love to read about.

The problem is we can never have that resolution.
11/14/2018 11:25 AMPosted by Dathretarian
Let me ask you something ... what would the difference be between Saurfang hesitating to Kill Malf long enough for Tyrande to intervene (which happened), and Tyrande simply showing up a few moments earlier and saving Malf anyway? Outside of Saurfang likely getting killed by Tyrande ... not much.

Malf would have still miraculously survived, and Sylvanas would have still been denied "her wound" (which, if you read a Good War she was clearly trying to destroy the NE civilization, which is why she was so irritated that BOTH Malf and Tyrande weren't on the field during "The War of Thornes").

Would she have still burned the Tree? Take a look at this:

“Where is Malfurion’s head, High Overlord?”

“Attached to his body, as far as I know,” he said.

She was not amused. “And where is that?”

Saurfang met her eyes without flinching. “Stormwind, I’d guess. Tyrande intervened and took him away.

It wasn’t often Sylvanas was left speechless.

It didn’t last long. “Malfurion lives?” she snarled. “You let him escape?”

His lips did not smile, but his eyes did. He was happy—happy!—about this. “I could not stop Tyrande. Perhaps you could have.


She may guess what happened, but as far as Sylvanas knows at that moment Tyrande intervened with him taking Malf's head. He was prevented from doing so, and in some ways he was (if you read, he was deeply conflicted, but hadn't decided on what to do with Malf before he was stopped by Tyrande and Elune); Saurfang however was happy that the choice of what to do was denied to him in the end. She burned the Tree, because Malfurion escaped ... it doesn't matter HOW.

Finish that short story. If you do, you clearly see that if Saurfang killed Malfurion, Sylvanas would have simply invaded Teldrassil and seized control. This would have left the Alliance crippled. Instead, she burned it, as this was the only way to wound the Alliance with Mal escaping.
(spoilers)

and because she burned it, a pissed off alliance is about to win the war in 8.1
11/14/2018 11:03 AMPosted by Dathretarian
I began BfA totally against Sylvanas. We just finished defeating the Burning Legion, and now we're destroying ourselves. I hated to see the Warchief running the Horde I love into the ground for some selfish, hidden reason, which I believed was to make more Forsaken.

I'm halfway through the War Questline, and it's given me much to think on; especially after reading the "Good War" short story, I believe. I'm coming to the conclusion that, all things considered, Sylvanas' war was totally justifiable. She knew peace could not last and knew that she had to make a home for the Horde; she had to strike first to preserve her people. Had Saurfang killed Malfurion, she would have done that. Maybe she's not the evil villain Garrosh was; maybe, just maybe, she's actually a decent Warchief.

Lok'tar O'gar


The war, totally justified. Burning Teldrassil? Evil _and_ stupid.
11/14/2018 11:19 AMPosted by Dathretarian
11/14/2018 11:15 AMPosted by Rancore
Justifiable, what a pretty word that ultimately means nothing. For everything and nothing is justifiable.

Justifiable: Able to be shown to be right or reasonable (Source: Oxford English dictionary)
Seams to have a pretty solid meaning. If you want to argue about what is right/reasonable, that's a different issue.

Clearly that is the argument seeing as, of course, justifiable has a clear definition.

I have been reading the forums for awhile and have watched as both sides have claimed that word for their side and both sides are correct.

Given enough time you can convince anyone or yourself that ones actions are justifiable which, as I stated, renders the world meaningless. In my opinion justices is nothing more than vengeance wearing a mask.

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