Justifiable?

Story Forum
She knew peace could not last


She's not omnipitent. She simply told Saurfang that it wouldn't last which doesn't make it true or that she even believed it herself. That's also banking that her stated reason, to make sure all the little Orc/Troll/Tauren etc. babies would be able to laugh and play in the sun without the big meanie Alliance coming to get them is the only reason she wanted to go to War i.e. no ulterior motive or outside influence.

So if the following assumptions hold true:

- She genuinely believed peace wouldn't last or was worth even trying.
- Her sole motivation is to protect future generations of allHorde races, not just the Forsaken or pursuing her own goals using Horde bodies as fodder in the mean-time.
- No outside influences (some people have mentioned LK might be influencing her judgement for example).

then yea sure she's doing her best as WC the only way she knows how.

However if any of them aren't true (I'm struggling to believe the 2nd is true) then for me at least, it's not justified at all.
11/14/2018 11:25 AMPosted by Dathretarian
Finish that short story. If you do, you clearly see that if Saurfang killed Malfurion, Sylvanas would have simply invaded Teldrassil and seized control. This would have left the Alliance crippled. Instead, she burned it, as this was the only way to wound the Alliance with Mal escaping.


I did, it doesn't matter. As far as SHE is aware, he was prevented from killing Malfurion ... and if you read she does give him permission to take a moment. Sylvie is merely shifting the blame. She has no evidence that Saurfang spared Malf, only that he didn't have enough time to finish the job (which, she knew would be difficult for him).

“This is your victory. None of this—not this battle, not Malfurion’s defeat—would have happened without you. You have earned this honor. Take a moment, if you’d like, and then take his head. I will meet you in Darkshore.”

Saurfang took his moment. He didn't spare Malf, he simply hesitated long enough (just a few minutes, on an already won battlefield as far as he was aware) for Tyrande to come in for the save. Sylvie allowed him that time. She was the one who decided to play a game with Malf's life, and Tyrande save him from his choice.

"He lifted his axe. And hesitated. Seconds passed, then whole minutes, and Saurfang could not bring it down.

He felt light and warmth shine upon him from above. It held sorrow, hope, and love. Perhaps this was Elune welcoming Malfurion to the next life. Perhaps that made this acceptable.

But this kill is not mine.

Perhaps it would be honorable to let Stormrage live.

In Sylvanas’s care? It is more merciful to end him now.

Still his axe did not move.

And then, very suddenly, he could not move at all.
"
11/14/2018 11:25 AMPosted by Dathretarian
...
Finish that short story. If you do, you clearly see that if Saurfang killed Malfurion, Sylvanas would have simply invaded Teldrassil and seized control. This would have left the Alliance crippled. Instead, she burned it, as this was the only way to wound the Alliance with Mal escaping.


I did, it doesn't matter. As far as SHE is aware, he was prevented from killing Malfurion ... and if you read she does give him permission to take a moment:

“This is your victory. None of this—not this battle, not Malfurion’s defeat—would have happened without you. You have earned this honor. Take a moment, if you’d like, and then take his head. I will meet you in Darkshore.”

Saurfang took his moment. He didn't spare Malf, he simply hesitated long enough (just a few minutes, on an already won battlefield as far as he was aware) for Tyrande to come in for the save. Sylvie allowed him that time.

He lifted his axe. And hesitated. Seconds passed, then whole minutes, and Saurfang could not bring it down.

He felt light and warmth shine upon him from above. It held sorrow, hope, and love. Perhaps this was Elune welcoming Malfurion to the next life. Perhaps that made this acceptable.

But this kill is not mine.

Perhaps it would be honorable to let Stormrage live.

In Sylvanas’s care? It is more merciful to end him now.

Still his axe did not move.

And then, very suddenly, he could not move at all.
sylvanas says that she thinks that elune herself intervened
11/14/2018 11:31 AMPosted by Hishy
- She genuinely believed peace wouldn't last or was worth even trying.


This assumption is a little off.

She genuinely believes peace wouldn't last with the Alliance and the only way to have peace with the Alliance is to dismantle them.

11/14/2018 11:03 AMPosted by Dathretarian
Had Saurfang killed Malfurion, she would have done that.


And just to chime in here, because I think a few posters are strawmanning:

“Secure the beach. Prepare to invade the tree.” - Sylvanas

Is this another case of "Sylvanas is lying, because it contradict my points"?
Yes yes yes, Sylvanas is an Offensive Realist who has a very poor judgement of Alliance motives and worldview. Her undead nature imparts a perception that views all actions taken in a negative light. No the war was not justified, nor were her actions in pursuing the war strategically sound for the long duration sustainability of the Horde.
11/14/2018 11:44 AMPosted by Deathisfinal
And just to chime in here, because I think a few posters are strawmanning:

“Secure the beach. Prepare to invade the tree.” - Sylvanas

Is this another case of "Sylvanas is lying, because it contradict my points"?


If you want to make that argument, then Saurfang's decision ultimately had very little to do with her burning the tree; as she was still intending on invading the tree after she was made known of Malf's survival. It wasn't until she she talked to Summermoon, who claimed "you may kill us (us presumably including Malfurion), but you cannot kill hope", and since Sylvie's goal was to create a wound so great that it would sink the Alliance into despair ... she realized then and there that killing Malfurion would not have resulted in the wound she desired. So ... she burned the tree.
11/14/2018 11:47 AMPosted by Saiphas
Yes yes yes, Sylvanas is an Offensive Realist who has a very poor judgement of Alliance motives and worldview. Her undead nature imparts a perception that views all actions taken in a negative light. No the war was not justified, nor were her actions in pursuing the war strategically sound for the long duration sustainability of the Horde.


Pretty much, it would be a different story if the Alliance was not a coalition and if Blizzard recognized the diplomatic ramifications of Stormheim. But the Alliance is after all an ALLIANCE of nations, it's not run like the Horde where there is some overall body that could mobilize all the nations to war on a heartbeat. If I were in her place, I would of contacted the other nations of the Alliance and talked to them about Genn Greymane and his unacceptable behavior, if they refused to comply then I would of sent something after him specifically.

That war would not only be more interesting imo, but much better reasoned without us having to resort to destroying each other in an all out bloodbath. But who wants to go through the boring paperwork of actual diplomacy?
11/14/2018 11:51 AMPosted by Droité
and since Sylvie's goal was to create a wound so great that it would sink the Alliance into despair
and even then it still failed.
11/14/2018 11:54 AMPosted by Darethy
But who wants to go through the boring paperwork of actual diplomacy?
*raises hand timidly*
11/14/2018 11:54 AMPosted by Darethy
11/14/2018 11:47 AMPosted by Saiphas
Yes yes yes, Sylvanas is an Offensive Realist who has a very poor judgement of Alliance motives and worldview. Her undead nature imparts a perception that views all actions taken in a negative light. No the war was not justified, nor were her actions in pursuing the war strategically sound for the long duration sustainability of the Horde.


Pretty much, it would be a different story if the Alliance was not a coalition and if Blizzard recognized the diplomatic ramifications of Stormheim. But the Alliance is after all an ALLIANCE of nations, it's not run like the Horde where there is some overall body that could mobilize all the nations to war on a heartbeat. If I were in her place, I would of contacted the other nations of the Alliance and talked to them about Genn Greymane and his unacceptable behavior, if they refused to comply then I would of sent something after him specifically.

That war would not only be more interesting imo, but much better reasoned without us having to resort to destroying each other in an all out bloodbath. But who wants to go through the boring paperwork of actual diplomacy?


Which feeds into the mantra I have had since day one. Blizzard does not deal in political dramas or war stories very well. Their cache, always, has been heroic power-fantasy morality plays.
11/14/2018 11:56 AMPosted by Saiphas
11/14/2018 11:54 AMPosted by Darethy
...

Pretty much, it would be a different story if the Alliance was not a coalition and if Blizzard recognized the diplomatic ramifications of Stormheim. But the Alliance is after all an ALLIANCE of nations, it's not run like the Horde where there is some overall body that could mobilize all the nations to war on a heartbeat. If I were in her place, I would of contacted the other nations of the Alliance and talked to them about Genn Greymane and his unacceptable behavior, if they refused to comply then I would of sent something after him specifically.

That war would not only be more interesting imo, but much better reasoned without us having to resort to destroying each other in an all out bloodbath. But who wants to go through the boring paperwork of actual diplomacy?


Which feeds into the mantra I have had since day one. Blizzard does not deal in political dramas or war stories very well. Their cache, always, has been heroic power-fantasy morality plays.
they have gone on record before saying they wont show the politics like with the house of nobles in stormwind
11/14/2018 12:00 PMPosted by Withpuppys
they have gone on record before saying they wont show the politics like with the house of nobles in stormwind


Which is why we have dumb things like the Alliance and Horde refusing to actually contact each other after Broken Shore, worse it's obvious Blizzard doesn't WANT you to think about this.

HEY BLIZZCON ALLIANCE, ARE YOU HYPED FOR REPAYING THE HORDES TREACHERY AT THE BROKEN SHORE?

???
11/14/2018 12:02 PMPosted by Darethy
11/14/2018 12:00 PMPosted by Withpuppys
they have gone on record before saying they wont show the politics like with the house of nobles in stormwind


Which is why we have dumb things like the Alliance and Horde refusing to actually contact each other after Broken Shore, worse it's obvious Blizzard doesn't WANT you to think about this.

HEY BLIZZCON ALLIANCE, ARE YOU HYPED FOR REPAYING THE HORDES TREACHERY AT THE BROKEN SHORE?

???


Yup
Azeroth is literally dying. The game beats you over the head with this every time you do a Magni world quest. The stakes are just as high if not higher than during the Legion's invasion. Starting a global war for your faction's survival is not justifiable given the current events, let alone the methods and actions used during it.

Sorry.

But cheer up, Sylvanas has a sign around her neck saying "ulterior motive" the same way Rastakhan had "kill me". She won't only be justified, she'll be vindicated. Only the mean old alliance will hold a grudge against her when she was really trying to save Azeroth all along! Who's the bad guy now, huh!?!

Everyone gets to be morally grey.
11/14/2018 11:47 AMPosted by Saiphas
Yes yes yes, Sylvanas is an Offensive Realist who has a very poor judgement of Alliance motives and worldview. Her undead nature imparts a perception that views all actions taken in a negative light. No the war was not justified, nor were her actions in pursuing the war strategically sound for the long duration sustainability of the Horde.

Idk, she seems to have it nailed on the head sometimes. She was right about Genn for the most part, until BTS changes his attitude toward the forsaken. She was right about Calia, that the defection was allowed in part due to her stupidity. I think she might be right about Anduin, that he is less innocent than he looks.

She was wrong about Tyrande, though- If Sylvanas played Legion, she would have known that Tyrande would go save Malfurion and not evacuate the city. That's what she gets for skipping questlines, I guess.

But I think she is proven right about the alliance on a few occasions.
11/14/2018 12:06 PMPosted by Mellow
11/14/2018 11:47 AMPosted by Saiphas
Yes yes yes, Sylvanas is an Offensive Realist who has a very poor judgement of Alliance motives and worldview. Her undead nature imparts a perception that views all actions taken in a negative light. No the war was not justified, nor were her actions in pursuing the war strategically sound for the long duration sustainability of the Horde.

Idk, she seems to have it nailed on the head sometimes. She was right about Genn for the most part, until BTS changes his attitude toward the forsaken. She was right about Calia, that the defection was allowed in part due to her stupidity. I think she might be right about Anduin, that he is less innocent than he looks.

She was wrong about Tyrande, though- If Sylvanas played Legion, she would have known that Tyrande would go save Malfurion and not evacuate the city. That's what she gets for skipping questlines, I guess.

But I think she is proven right about the alliance on a few occasions.


The problem is the people she was proven right about are not the whole of the Alliance, you can't set fire to a entire coalition of nations...especially by attacking a country who wasn't involved at all, because of the stupidity of a few members.
11/14/2018 11:16 AMPosted by Linoradrin
11/14/2018 11:05 AMPosted by Deathisfinal
Run for your life and don't ever look back.


The nelfs roleplayers are coming

I have nothing to add to this otherwise pointless thread other than the fact that i often see this line thrown around by many Hordeposters as an attempt to insult those who feel passionately about their favorite race.

And I have to ask... why? More importantly, why aren't Hordeposters ever called out for it, who are guilty of doing it much more often?
I cant take sylvanas creating this war seriously.

Why? Before the storm.

Her intentions are paved with the burning of storm wind to raise more forsaken, because the living dont know what they want I do mentality. She had the chance for peace and decided, during a ceasefire, to murder any undead who went to see there families and had positive experiences would earn a final death via arrows.

Stop justifying a monster. Shed see the horde and alliance dead and raised under her control. That is her motivation and has been since cata when she saw hell and wanted a larger bulwark against that hell.
11/14/2018 11:51 AMPosted by Droité
she realized then and there that killing Malfurion would not have resulted in the wound she desired


Are you sure about that? This is what she said after she talked to Summermoon.

“This was your battle. Your strategy. And your failure. Darnassus was never the prize. It was a wedge that would split the Alliance apart. It was the weapon that would destroy hope. And you, my master strategist, gave that up to spare an enemy you defeated. I have taken it back. When they come for us, they will do so in pain, not in glory. That may be our only chance at victory now.”

Seems like she had every intention on invaded the tree until her chat with Summermoon, which prompted the above quote.
11/14/2018 11:47 AMPosted by Saiphas
Yes yes yes, Sylvanas is an Offensive Realist who has a very poor judgement of Alliance motives and worldview. Her undead nature imparts a perception that views all actions taken in a negative light. No the war was not justified, nor were her actions in pursuing the war strategically sound for the long duration sustainability of the Horde.

Idk, she seems to have it nailed on the head sometimes. She was right about Genn for the most part, until BTS changes his attitude toward the forsaken. She was right about Calia, that the defection was allowed in part due to her stupidity. I think she might be right about Anduin, that he is less innocent than he looks.

She was wrong about Tyrande, though- If Sylvanas played Legion, she would have known that Tyrande would go save Malfurion and not evacuate the city. That's what she gets for skipping questlines, I guess.

But I think she is proven right about the alliance on a few occasions.


The alliance is a coalition of equal nations. Hence why Tyrande can tell anduin that she is taking her forces to Darkshore, and Genn decides to send his as well, even over Anduin's belief that it is the wrong call.

Re: Anduin, naw, the dev's have pretty much gone on record that he is pretty much noblebright.

On genn: but he did change his attitude, leaving the door open that reconciliation is possible.

Last point, pretty much everything in the narrative of BfA has explicitly and implicitly undermined Sylvanas' world view. I even wrote a long post showcasing exactly that.

Edit: Pedantic Note, Blizzard really has no freaking concept between the tactical, operational, and strategic levels of war nor what a strategist's roles and responsibilities vice operational command and tactical command.

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