Making Baine a Good Warchief

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Assuming Sylvanas is no longer warchief by the end of BfA the Horde is looking at yet another empty warchief throne. The Horde has lost most of their best options to the point that Lor'themar and Baine seem like the only reasonable candidates left.

I don't think it will be Lor'themar as he's basically nonexistent in the story. That leaves Baine, who does have a presence in the story of BfA.

However most Horde players have some strong reservations about the character. He's too passive, he doesn't stand up for what he believes, and he's strangely close to the Alliance High King. More close to him than any current Horde leadership, I'd say, which can be problematic when you try to prop him up as the leader of the Horde.

Now despite this, I don't think Baine is a lost cause. He's still a young character and he hasn't undergone any significant character arcs to define who he is.

So my question is; What would it take for Baine to become a warchief you could stand beside? What kind of character arc would you need to see him undergo before you could look at him like a leader worth following? Or do you think he's a lost cause and that there is nothing that can be done to make him worthy of the title?

Personally I would like to see Baine become more aggressive. I like his general ideology, I feel it reflects well what the Horde represents. He's just missing a very crucial aspect. Something his father had and knew how to exercise when needed. A willingness to fight for what you believe in.

Baine needs to finally be pushed too far. Either Sylvanas doing something he can't tolerate or the Alliance's attack on Mulgore finally being a step further than he can justify in his mind. I want to see him have a moment like in the War Crimes AU where he ripped Garrosh in half with his bare hands.

Perhaps more importantly, I'd like it to be the Alliance that pushes him too far. I don't want him to pull a full Jaina, but I do want him to finally see the Alliance as a threat. An enemy. I don't mind if he stays friends with Anduin as I think that could make a legitimately interesting story. Two friends forced to wage a bloody and brutal war on one another due to political obligations (Tyrande, Genn, and Jaina would need to not accept Anduin's attempts for peace for this to work, but that would be good for Alliance development too).

If Baine can finally find his limit and stops being so passive I think I could accept him as warchief. He just needs the character development to get him to a place that he can lead the Horde with a strong hand.

Bonus points if, during a major battle, he's forced to one arm toss Anduin across the battlefield to save some Horde soldiers from the Boy King's blade. A battle with dire stakes between these two could be really entertaining, with some Ferdiad vs Cu Chulainn parallels thrown in.
- 1) Baine needs to actually express that he's accepted the version of himself he saw in "War Crimes" in a tangible way. I don't mind that he's a level headed, peace oriented guy (he's a second generation Horde and a Tauren), but he accepted that a version of himself (that gave into his need for vengeance for Cairne and ended up having enough power to defeat Garrosh with his bare hands AND became Warchief) was part of him. This side of him needs to be shown through action.

There are times where that sort of strength is necessary. He needs to learn how to use it and where to focus it where it needs to go.

- 2) Baine needs to start trusting his own judgement, rather than always relying on the judgement of his mentors. He's learned good things from Cairne, Thrall, Vol'jin, and Saurfang (and I hope he learns a few things from Sylvie, there are things to learn); but he's far too willing to sit back and refer to their judgement. His identity as a leader of his people seems weak, because it is weak. He cares for them clearly, but he needs to step out of his heroes' shadows and define himself as a leader.

He's got good ideals, but again rarely expresses them. He unintentionally stands more in the shadows of his peers, than even Sylvie did intentionally before being Warchief.

- 3) Baine needs to understand that his relationship with Anduin (and his retention of a non-hostile relationship with Jaina) can be of great benefit to him and his people at a negotiation table; but he must have limits that he's unwilling to bend on. If he is to lead, especially in a time of peace (which he'd be good at), he needs to know that there are times where his peoples needs will likely come before (or even at the expense) of his friendship with Anduin.

Anduin should accept this, as he needs to learn this too as he grows.
Too late, he's been a push over for way too long. I personally would love it, but their inconsistency with Baine having a spine has just bent him like a pretzel man.

"HEY LOA OF DEATH, YOU ANSWER ME NOW"

"Man sylvannas is so mean ima talk bad about her when shes around"

2ish expansions earlier

Baine non verbally reminds her he can snap her in two effortlessly.
I won't comment as an Alliance main, but I appreciate reading your guys' input on this. This is a topic that's been on my mind for a while too.
To continue what I think would be a good #4 to what Droite said: Baine needs to actually take control of situations where his people are involved. He lets the Horde walk over him and the Tauren far too often: it was he who kept Orgrimmars population from dehydration and sickness. It was his people who enabled the Horde to expand into southern Kalimdor. At this point, the Tauren dont need the Horde: No big enemies nearby left, perfectly self sustaining magics, and still a semi favorable relationship with the Night Elves and general Alliance thanks to Hamuul and his own personal friendship with Anduin. Baine needs to really think about his people just as much as the Horde: he needs to actually be the guide keeping them from following a path of darkness, like he tells Tauren players that they should be in the very last Mulgore quest.
An action worthy of an Old Warrior cinematic.

Tbh, hardest thing I think the hardest part about figuring out the Horde’s next warchief is all their new characters are Allied Races. And almost all the Orcs are too old.

Cromush for warchief?
10/05/2018 09:44 PMPosted by Ningjinq
Cromush for warchief?
Get out.
Anyone but Baine or Saurfang. I don't know who that leaves, but that person is better. Some Nightborne tourist catching the sights outside Grommash Hold? Grab her by the ear and lead her to the throne.
Anyone but Baine or Saurfang. I don't know who that leaves, but that person is better. Some Nightborne tourist catching the sights outside Grommash Hold? Grab her by the ear and lead her to the throne.


Recovering mana addict for Warchief
10/05/2018 10:05 PMPosted by Sheuteras
Anyone but Baine or Saurfang. I don't know who that leaves, but that person is better. Some Nightborne tourist catching the sights outside Grommash Hold? Grab her by the ear and lead her to the throne.


Recovering mana addict for Warchief
Oh! MANA CRYSTAL! Just a moment!
Baine is too blue to be Warchief, i even ask myself why the tauren have not yet called him on it

even Sylvanas "im here out of convenience" or "i dont care about the Horde", or "im using the Horde for my own purposes" has called him on his clear ties and sympaties over the Alliance, and if Sylvanas is the one doing it the problem is serious

why anyone would ever want him Warchief makes me wonder if that person is just playing Horde cause spike architeture and not immersion

he is not Cairne, who was defacto a true Horde leader who stood to what he believed about the Horde

i find his very relationship with Anduin extremelly detrimental to the character to the point i even believe the Horde would rather be better with Galiwix in command than him
Baine is too soft. Even right after the Zuldazar raid he suggests we give up and start begging for forgiveness from the Alliance. He's not "fixable" to the point of being Warchief.
not really sure how to make him likeable for the horde since i am not a horde player.
i would personally like that he stands by his ideals and call sylvanas out of her BS.
and pull "what has your horde done for the tauren? we give you loyalty, and we we get in return? sending our people to die and getting attacked by the alliance because you wanted to start a war with them" something like that.

he already thinks that the honor that make the taurens join the horde in the first place has been desecrated.

Now really, why the tauren are still part of the horde? also taurens druids have friends in the cenarion circle, most of them nelfs, probably they are just not happy with what the horde is doing.

or at least he has to do something asap,makgora? rebellion? anything?
or maybe taking anduins head to sylvanas to turn the horde in the scourge.
it's going to be really hard for baine to earn the respect of horde players,probably the next barrens warfront is going to change that.
or not.
Baine's issue in relation to Cairne, is that Baine is a push over where Cairne at least tried to use the power he had. All in all, Cairne was as blue as Baine: but because faction war was not such a big issue Cairne was involved in during WoW, it was never something he really talked about. The one time he did, he tried to kill Garrosh for unnecessary war and destruction: Why would the Tauren call him or Baine out? That is the entire mindset of the Tauren. Violence only when it is necessary for protection, always a last resort. Garrosh wouldn't listen, Garrosh woulda doomed the Tauren in a war that'd inevitably screw over both sides immensely, and Garrosh was abusing the spiritual side of the Horde and twisting it into something dark. Cairne wasn't blue, neither is Baine: Cairne is a Tauren. Their place in the Horde has -always- been about setting an example of true honor and benevolence, a living example of spiritual honor for the Orcs, recovering these values themselves, to learn from.
Baine is completely unsalvageable to me after exiling his own people for wanting to fight back against an Alliance attack that forced them from their homes.

There is no "good Warchief" in there. Just someone who won't offend the Alliance. Which I am wholly uninterested in seeing as even a small part of the Horde, much less in the leader spot.
10/05/2018 10:19 PMPosted by Sheuteras
All in all, Cairne was as blue as Baine


Straight up blasphemy. I can't remember Cairne giving a damn about the Alliance.
Straight up blasphemy. I can't remember Cairne giving a damn about the Alliance.


His greatest advisor was the student of Malfurion stormrage. He Mak'gora'd Garrosh for the death of both night elves and Tauren coming together to speak peace upon ancient shared traditions. In Chronicles 3 im pretty sure they stress it was not just about the Tauren who died, but just as much the night elves also being diplomatic and killed for it in honorless betrayal. Cairne doesnt need to flat out talk about the Alliance, for it to be clear how his character things. He's a Tauren.
It's really too bad they never did the "Gates of Mulgore" scenario back in Cata(?) MoP(?). I think that was supposed to be the payoff to Baine's ... inactivity up to that point, showing that he was slow to anger but formidable/implacable once someone finally crosses the line.

Unfortunately, it looks like the time for that has come and gone. He's beyond "slow to anger" at this point; more like a simmering pot of anger that never leads anywhere.
10/05/2018 10:26 PMPosted by Sheuteras
Straight up blasphemy. I can't remember Cairne giving a damn about the Alliance.


His greatest advisor was the student of Malfurion stormrage. He Mak'gora'd Garrosh for the death of both night elves and Tauren coming together to speak peace upon ancient shared traditions. In Chronicles 3 im pretty sure they stress it was not just about the Tauren who died, but just as much the night elves also being diplomatic and killed for it in honorless betrayal. Cairne doesnt need to flat out talk about the Alliance, for it to be clear how his character things. He's a Tauren.


Alliance thinking that Tauren are besties with the Night Elves and Alliance are hilarious and ridiculous. Do you guys honestly think they put their hobbyist friends over their saviors and brothers in arms? Hamuul has only been a student of Malfurion for around a decade, and he's much older than that both as a person and advisor. The Night Elves were nothing but legends to the Mulgore Tauren until the third war, and the humans and dwarves have been killing them since as well. They are firmly Horde, whether Baine likes it or not.
Also: let's be real, if Baine became warchief, he'd just be killed off unceremoniously in a couple of expansions when they want a faction war again.

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