Making Baine a Good Warchief

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Nothing. There is not one thing Blizzard could do to fix Baine believably. They would essentially have to write him as an entirely new character.

He has been nothing but a spineless milquetoast kissing Anduin's feet for years, he cares nothing for his people.
There is absolutely nothing that could fix him. He should be killed off hopefully during this latest rebellion so that the Tauren can get a more interesting leader that isn't a spineless milkboy.
Baine would need to develop a spine as well as some...bite. As it stands, for all of his posturing, he’s never really delivered on any threat he’s made. He also needs to realize that his loyalty is to his people and the Horde first, everything else is second.
/shrug

I'm fine with him as Warchief right now. I think he is suitable as he is.

He stood beside Sylvanas and the Horde when Saurfang abandoned it. He worked for peace with Anduin but stopped when Sylvanas commanded. He seems loyal to the Horde until he learns Voljin may have been tricked.

He made the hard choices. He seems well intentioned. A bit stupid, naive, and inexperienced...but that can change with time.
Maybe in 6 years after some reasonable character development we can talk

as it is now give to Jani instead, only he can salvage this dumpsterfire story.
I think he would need to Tauren up a little bit and show that he can defend the Horde on the battlefield, especially given the current circumstances. That said, this is harder than one might imagine because of how two things have to give:

1. Baine's nature is already very pacifist and "slow to anger" type. Something pretty significant would need to happen in order for this to change.

2. The Alliance has thus far not been written as being capable of carrying out the sort of "something significant" that would rouse Baine from his pacifistic stupor. It's almost a case of him being a mirror of the Alliance in that he would probably need to suffer a huge, unprovoked, and unquestionably "wrong" action. (Remember what happened when even the slightest bit of wiggle room existed with Taurajo?)

Having Baine anger because of something Sylvanas did might satisfy the first condition, but I don't really think it would do much to endear him to people as a Warchief - he couldn't rouse the anger to fight the Alliance, only his own side. But I don't think, given current trends, that the Alliance can be written to fulfill the second condition, unless it took place in Horde-only content in which the Alliance was uncharacteristically aggressive and oppressive and the Alliance never saw that for themselves, which would never happen, right?
He's the Anduin of the Horde. Why would you ever want him as Warchief?
10/06/2018 08:01 AMPosted by Arlifrex
He's the Anduin of the Horde. Why would you ever want him as Warchief?


I would not.

But if Sylvanas must go, there is little choice.

Saurfang....no. Id reroll Alliance until the next musical Warchief song ends.

Lorthemar...he just would not accept it. I think he realizes being Warchief is a death sentence, and the Blood Elves need him as THEIR leader - not in Orgrimmar.

Baine is pretty much it.

Unless you expand it to people like Talanji, Garona, Lilian, and Eitrigg.
You know who I would actually be okay with as Warchief? Liadrin.

She’s certainly as patriotic as Lor’Themar, doesn’t shy away from a fight, has some diplomatic skill (she’s the one who extended a hand of friendship to the Nightborne), and she’s decently respected. If she was nominated to the position, I wouldn’t really complain. They just need to make her personality a bit more interesting.
You know who I would actually be okay with as Warchief? Liadrin.

She’s certainly as patriotic as Lor’Themar, doesn’t shy away from a fight, has some diplomatic skill (she’s the one who extended a hand of friendship to the Nightborne), and she’s decently respected. If she was nominated to the position, I wouldn’t really complain. They just need to make her personality a bit more interesting.

They really do. It's night and day between Eitrigg and Liadrin during the WF. He had some pretty entertaining banter with Trollbane. Poor Muradin is out there like "Please, give me something to work with here, lady!" If you're too boring to lead a WF, you're too boring to be WC.
You’d have to get rid of Anduin as High King. Maybe have Genn or Tyrande finally get sick of his passive nature, take his place (he can still be King of Stormwind). Then the new leader can attack the Horde, giving Baine motivation to nut up and act like a savage warrior. Like a real Tauren.

Or just make Lor’themar Warchief. At least he fights for his people
Baine's problem has nothing to do with being too soft, but everything to do with the fact that he's portrayed as legitimately intellectually challenged. Between his tone-deaf optimism at the Orgrimmar feast and his portrayal at the Undercity, Baine has shown that he's just clueless to everything that's going on around him. He's such a painfully straight shooter that he's actually not aware that the very concepts of scheming or strategy exist, and is blissfully unaware of Sylvanas' nature.
10/06/2018 12:35 AMPosted by Myrothan
10/06/2018 12:28 AMPosted by Arlifrex
...

And look where that has gotten them.


What exactly are you referring to here? Also, what would you prefer? Would you rather the Horde just be the spikey Alliance? Some type of attack dog vassals?

!@#$ Alliance input. The Horde has sovereignty over itself and its people.


The Horde has been through one rebellion and is now in the midst of starting another. The Warchiefs the Horde picks either die or wage a losing war.

I’m tired of losing crap to this faction only to spare them until they start something worse.

So yeah, it sucks for you, but the horde is proving they don’t deserve sovereignty.
10/06/2018 10:48 AMPosted by Joztrah
You know who I would actually be okay with as Warchief? Liadrin.

She’s certainly as patriotic as Lor’Themar, doesn’t shy away from a fight, has some diplomatic skill (she’s the one who extended a hand of friendship to the Nightborne), and she’s decently respected. If she was nominated to the position, I wouldn’t really complain. They just need to make her personality a bit more interesting.

They really do. It's night and day between Eitrigg and Liadrin during the WF. He had some pretty entertaining banter with Trollbane. Poor Muradin is out there like "Please, give me something to work with here, lady!" If you're too boring to lead a WF, you're too boring to be WC.


High ground was a short joke though.

10/06/2018 12:29 PMPosted by Arlifrex
10/06/2018 12:35 AMPosted by Myrothan
...

What exactly are you referring to here? Also, what would you prefer? Would you rather the Horde just be the spikey Alliance? Some type of attack dog vassals?

!@#$ Alliance input. The Horde has sovereignty over itself and its people.


The Horde has been through one rebellion and is now in the midst of starting another. The Warchiefs the Horde picks either die or wage a losing war.

I’m tired of losing crap to this faction only to spare them until they start something worse.

So yeah, it sucks for you, but the horde is proving they don’t deserve sovereignty.


It's our responsibility to civilize them. King Teranas didn't call it the Alliance Burden for nothing.
10/06/2018 12:29 PMPosted by Arlifrex
So yeah, it sucks for you, but the horde is proving they don’t deserve sovereignty.


Sucks for you, but the Alliance has been trying to influence the Hordes sovereignty for awhile now, and it has yet come to pass. The day Horde sovereignty dies is the day the Horde dies and there will pretty much only be Alliance players left tbh. That's fine if you'd be okay with that, but I can't see even most anti-Sylvanas Horde bros being okay with it. Not alts but the people who genuinely side with the Horde as an institution.

10/06/2018 12:38 PMPosted by Kastrieren
It's our responsibility to civilize them. King Teranas didn't call it the Alliance Burden for nothing.


Some of you humans are alright. Don't go to Darkshore in 8.1.
This thread is bad and you should feel bad. It reminds me of that repulsive moment when everyone talked about Baine favorably during the 7.8.5 cinematic. Baine is an utter insult to his father and to the Horde. He puts a foreign King above his own people. He is Barack Obama or Neville Chamberlain in Tauren form: a spineless appeaser that hides his cowardice behind being a "man of peace". There has to be a breaking or snapping point, and Baine has shown, repeatedly, that he doesn't have one. He didn't have one when Sylvanas slaughtered the Night Elves. He didn't have one when Garrosh Mana Bombed Theramore. He didn't have one when Alliance troops drove his people from their homes and he punished HIS OWN PEOPLE for defending themselves. Most recently, he didn't have one after the Alliance assassinated King Rastakhan.

The only things he's done, are either cringey Yaoi pandering crap, or being a gutless milquetoast who doesn't fight when he needs to. People love to fling crap at Thrall and Jaina for being "peaceful", but both of them, and Cairne, and even F***ING Anduin, all have breaking points with their want for peace. They are willing to fight back if someone violates the "live and let live" philosophy they have. Baine isn't. Baine will allow his people to be slaughtered, allow others to commit war crimes, debase himself and his position, and there will never be a moment when he will have to fight for peace, because he thinks just words are enough.

Baine thinks surrender is peace, and someone like that can always be counted on to allow tyrants or foreign oppressors to reign, as he holds his "beliefs in peace" above the survival and freedom of his people, and the violence necessary to maintain them.
10/06/2018 01:46 AMPosted by Skytotem
Nothing. There is not one thing Blizzard could do to fix Baine believably. They would essentially have to write him as an entirely new character.

He has been nothing but a spineless milquetoast kissing Anduin's feet for years, he cares nothing for his people.
One of the rare Skytotem posts I agree with.

I loved Caire, and Blizz killed him for no reason. I'm not going to accept his weak, imbecile, Alliance loyal, off-brand replacement.
I don’t think that Baine should be Warchief. It should be Vol’jin, whose reign felt interrupted.

Saurfang would be a good Warchief, but he’s probably going to die.

Thrall would be a good Warchief but that feels like the distant past. He hasn’t been present enough in the Horde story to justify his return.

Baine could be a good Warchief, but he has to start being assertive. Right now he vocalizes displeasure when upset but it hasn’t amounted to anything. If he strated actually challenging Sylvanas and forcing her to bend to his wishes, then he could actually be seen as a competent leader instead of an ineffective pushover.
Step 1: Baine's flaws need to be acknowledged in story and explained.

Fixing Baine requires the writers (Golden) to acknowledge that he has personality flaws. Then they have to make him also realize these flaws. You don't even have to retcon his story to explain why he acts this way, you just have to expand on his introductory sequence back in WCIII. Baine and many of his tribe were captured in a Centaur raid. Because he's the chieftain's son, the centaurs force him to watch as his friends are slaughtered in front of him. By the time Rexxar rescues him, literally everyone around him had died, and when he reaches home, the Centaur that captured him had been wiped out, giving him no time to dwell on revenge prospects and all the time to dwell on grief.

I'd expect Baine to be heavily influenced by this event. Hero worship of Rexxar and the Horde would unfortunately impress on him a bystander effect, while survivor's guilt constantly makes him take actions which prioritize his people's lives because he'd view things like his pride or sense of retribution to be inherently selfish and disrespect those who put their lives in his hands. It gives clear context behind his actions and gives him a stepping stone moving forward.

Step 2: The writers need to stop killing any development for Baine

This is really a narrative problem where the writers want one non-aggressive faction leader on both sides. When Jaina snapped, Anduin stepped up to take her place. If you combined pre-MoP Jaina and Anduin into one character, you'd have a an Alliance Baine equivalent in terms of what people think.

The thing is, Baine can snap. The writers have absolutely no problems dreaming up scenarios or even showing a hypothetical scenario where Baine is aggressive. Baine had a Cataclysm line where he actively leads Tauren to push the Alliance out of the Southern Barrens in retaliation for Mulgore. Most recently Beta BFA Baine had super aggressive text where it was clear he was not going to put up with Sylvanas doing anything suspicious in Zuldazar. The problem is that these is that any development for Baine ends up axed in service to other characters. Baine being aggressive towards Sylvanas basically assures the MoP Garrosh vibe so they tone it down in an attempt to hide their intentions. Baine retaliating against the Alliance creates a Black and White scenario in favor of the Horde and makes it harder for them to use Baine as a peacemaker, so for narrative ease, they cut it completely.

What I'm getting at is that people need to stop victim blaming Baine when it should be painfully clear that the writers are pulling out his spine to make it easier to write their narrative.

Step 3: Baine needs to be treated as a person rather than a mouthpiece

I say "person" because you can create static characters. Basically, due to the aforementioned narrative issues, the writers like to stick Baine into generic mouthpiece roles. They have no problem with Baine being the "reasonable opinion" person that ends with him taking all the flak.

Beyond the "negotiations" issue, take a look at how Baine speaks to Vol'jin in 8.1 datamine where he's just standing in for Thrall. We are also led to believe that Baine still has a high opinion of Saurfang because he has literally one scene that shows us what he thinks. The problem here is that Baine should be pissed off at them. He doesn't have to hate them, but he needs to give them a piece of his mind. Vol'jin made the exact same mistake that Thrall made in appointing a terrible person for Warchief, something that should hit close to home since Cairne died because of Thrall's decision. Baine directly asked Saurfang whose idea it was to go up into Ashenvale while he was tending to the wound in Silithus, and Saurfang replied that it was his own. Without anything else being cleared up off-screen, Baine should directly fault the burning of Teldrassil on Saurfang and be icy towards him.

Baine's hostility should also extend towards the Alliance after the Burning of Zuldazar. It should be a betrayal of trust from Anduin; Baine was confident that with new leadership, Taurajo wouldn't be repeated. Now that the Alliance have shown that they have no problem with destroying Horde allies and their civilian centers in pursuit of their goals. Baine should be confronted with the fact that there's no hero in this story that's going to make everything better. He needs to realize that fighting to protect one's way of life is as valid as fighting for one's life. If Baine was treated as a dynamic character, a person with actual emotions, this would be the part where he finally grows up and starts making his own plans.
10/06/2018 02:14 PMPosted by Rhahen
Baine's hostility should also extend towards the Alliance after the Burning of Zuldazar. It should be a betrayal of trust from Anduin


betrayal of trust of anduin? he is literally the king of stormwind, that should have make him angry at lordaeron, not after the alliance attacked zuldazar.

even after that he is like "yeah, we should surrender, let's negotiate"
after seeing derek "this is wrong".

the alliance already attacked 2 horde cities at this point for teldrassil, if he didn't snapped now, i don't know when he will.
and not forgetting the fact that both of his "friends" anduin and jaina lead those attacks.
i think that he most likely is going in the alliance favor.
the barrens warfront could change this.

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