Making Baine a Good Warchief

Story Forum
Prev 1 3 4 5 6 Next
Baine knows that Lordaeron is retaliation for Teldrassil and even if he's angry at Saurfang for going along with Sylvanas, it was still Sylvanas who led the attack and is getting retaliation. With Zuldazar, the Alliance are making a preemptive attack to sever Zandalari and Horde connections. It would prove to Baine that Taurajo isn't some one off incident and that he needs to be willing to fight.

Keep in mind that 8.1 hasn't happened yet. If they can change Baine's beta text, they can change his milquetoast lines into something tolerable.
The best way would be for Baine to step down and let Dezco take the reigns for a bit (assuming Dezco's up for it).

Dezco at least has the benefit of having been on-sight in Pandaria during MoP - I think I've actually done more quests involving him than Baine. He's also not saddled with all the baggage Baine's accrued up to this point, so it's a bit easier to give Dezco a change in direction / motivation if needed.
Step 1: Retcon out the whole "exiling tauren who tried to seek vengeance for Taurajo." Just say that no such incident ever happened.

Step 2: Have the Alliance offer peace terms that Baine cannot accept. We've seen that Baine is a lover of peace, which is good. But we also need to see his limits. We need to see what would bring him to choose war.

Step 3: Have him make decisions in general. Thus far, Baine has come across as a good candidate for "right-hand man" of the real leader, whoever that is. He executes the plans of others, but he doesn't choose things of his own accord. That would need to change.
OK ... I made my "nice" post about the steps they could take IMO that could make him an appropriate Warchief ... now I'm gonna do my !@#$% fest version.

Baine is NOT a bad character, but the ways the writers use him is ^-*!:

- He's the son of one of the Founders of the Horde
- He grew up in Thrall's Horde
- His mentors are Cairne, Thrall, Rexxar, Vol'jin, and Saurfang
- He's the racial representative of the ONLY race that vouched for the Forsaken
- He matured with the Blood Elves as part of the Horde
- He suffered under Garrosh's Horde
- He apparently has enough physical prowess to rip Garrosh in half in a Mak'gora for the Warchief position WITH HIS BARE HANDS (In AU).
- He swallowed his pride and stayed to "tend to the living' in Sylvanas' Horde.

Baine is the ONLY Horde representative that could genuinely be considered a product of THIS Horde (WC3 and WoW's Horde) and the ingredients that comprise his character are absolutely perfect for a Warchief ... however. The ingredients mean jack-@#$% if the writers refuse to mix them properly; which they have...

Baine is the victim of "not all Horde" syndrome. He's the shining example of how not all Horde are feral warmongers with victim complexes. His need as a character always come after the needs of him counterbalancing the development of the Horde narrative and the development of other Horde characters.

He was supposed to have a bigger role in Legion; got cut. His dialogue in the BfA beta was A LOT more aggressive (which explains why he's even on Zandalar, but also why Zandalar quests are so tonally different than those of the War Campaign), this dialogue got watered down for fear of Garrosh 2.0 concerns.

The reason Baine comes off as so spineless is largely likely do to the writers deciding he needs to represent the "Good Horde" so they can have another character get away with going absolutely bonkers (like Garrosh and Sylvie). They go SUPER evil, Baine's needs get set aside so he can be EXTRA GOOD to compensate!

Its constantly frustrating watching a character recipe with so much promise be consistantly despoiled by writers who care more about what he can do for OTHER characters and the story, than who he is/can be himself...
He just needs to grow a spine. Wishing for peace is noble but like Varian says you need to fight for it. I want him to hunt down Magatha and have her executed. It could be a starting point for a transition into a strong character.

But that's been the problem with Baine, he's always been "that one with potential" but Blizzard never acts on it. Even when he gets angry he does nothing.
Baine needs to stand knee-deep in Alliance guts without feeling bad about it.

And that's just step 3.
10/06/2018 11:07 PMPosted by Treng
Baine needs to stand knee-deep in Alliance guts without feeling bad about it.

And that's just step 3.
As an Alliance player, I would love to see that Baine.
Ill be walking away from this game the day that spineless wimp goes anywhere near the title of Warchief.
Tbh the thing that really makes Baine intolerable is the exile of his own people after they were victims of the Alliance. I don’t care if the Alliance were justified or not, the fact is from a Tauren and Horde perspective it should have been seen as cause for a fight Baine should have stood with his people.

Maybe the writers could use their lack of respect towards continuity and just retcon that. And the horn thing.

Then actually show Baine protecting Horde members. And I mean in game and not in a !@#$ty short story or cinematic
Lorthemar would be best but as pointed out doesn't want to be leader of the belfs let alone the Horde.

Liadrin is ballsy and diplomatic enough to work but is as interesting as watching paint dry.

I could see Eitrigg or Rexar.
10/06/2018 11:39 PMPosted by Valinoth
Lorthemar would be best but as pointed out doesn't want to be leader of the belfs let alone the Horde.

Liadrin is ballsy and diplomatic enough to work but is as interesting as watching paint dry.

I could see Eitrigg or Rexar.
This is why I bemoan what they did to Kael'thas. Not only would he have made a respectable faction leader for Silvermoon, but also a respectable candidate for Warchief.

Granted I'm Alliance, so take this with a grain of salt.
10/06/2018 11:42 PMPosted by Grandblade
10/06/2018 11:39 PMPosted by Valinoth
Lorthemar would be best but as pointed out doesn't want to be leader of the belfs let alone the Horde.

Liadrin is ballsy and diplomatic enough to work but is as interesting as watching paint dry.

I could see Eitrigg or Rexar.
This is why I bemoan what they did to Kael'thas. Not only would he have made a respectable faction leader for Silvermoon, but also a respectable candidate for Warchief.

Granted I'm Alliance, so take this with a grain of salt.


Nah, you hit it pretty much on the head. Me and several other Horde players have felt the same about Kael. Everything about what happened to him just...makes no sense.

In fact BC in general makes no sense, and by extension so does most of the interaction with Illidan in Legion, that expansion is a narrative albatross I hope we never revisit.
10/06/2018 11:50 PMPosted by Darethy
10/06/2018 11:42 PMPosted by Grandblade
... This is why I bemoan what they did to Kael'thas. Not only would he have made a respectable faction leader for Silvermoon, but also a respectable candidate for Warchief.

Granted I'm Alliance, so take this with a grain of salt.


Nah, you hit it pretty much on the head. Me and several other Horde players have felt the same about Kael. Everything about what happened to him just...makes no sense.

In fact BC in general makes no sense, and by extension so does most of the interaction with Illidan in Legion, that expansion is a narrative albatross I hope we never revisit.
I think if we removed most of BC in general, Legion would have made more sense. All the awful atrocities Illidan committed wouldn't be overlooked, and neither him nor Kael (and Vashj, feel like she got the shortest end) woulda been overlooked... honestly in retrospect, narratively Legion should've come earlier. Mechanically I understand why it came first though. People wanted to go to Outland.
Choosing the Horde leadership seems to be a very complicated and intricate process. The impression is that the ritual for choosing a new Horde ruler, involves a ceremony where the commander of each race all get together, and then they sort of scamper around the throne of the Warchief while a melody is played.. and then when the music stops, they all run for the chair at the same time.. and whoever sits in it first becomes the new WoW Hitler.
10/07/2018 12:06 AMPosted by Shadestalkër
WoW Hitler
Gah, you had me until the end...
Baine could have done so much this expansion to instill faction pride, to invigorate the Horde in this conflict, but instead he says nothing. By now he has such a record of seeking peace, trying to ease conflicts that it is almost assumed he will always be seeking a peaceful solution.

Imagine if after the assault on the Zandalari capital, instead of asking 'should we surrender' he stepped forward when it was other characters worried about their chances, and rallying them. If the 'voice of peace' said that this war was needed, then he could rally the Horde, and make them feel justified about this war.

Honestly, there is a simple way, in my opinion, to make Baine surge forward in the view of the Horde players. Have that sliver of horn he sent to Anduin be a clever move on his part. Show off some Tauren magic, some of scrying / vision quest that works on sympathetic magics. In short, Baine can basically use that sliver of horn to scry on Anduin during meetings. He could see the arguments with Tyrande, the views of his commanders, the reports. Anduin's commanders keep pressing for stronger measures, and harder actions, but he keeps shooting them down. Baine knows that even a noble leader of a nation can still have corruption in those lower in the chain. After all, wasn't his own father taken down by the poison from who served lower in the chain?

Have Baine decide that Anduin could not keep the members of the Alliance in check if surrender occurred, and have him resolve that the best path for his people, for the Horde... was to continue the fight.
10/06/2018 11:39 PMPosted by Valinoth
Lorthemar would be best but as pointed out doesn't want to be leader of the belfs let alone the Horde.

Liadrin is ballsy and diplomatic enough to work but is as interesting as watching paint dry.

I could see Eitrigg or Rexar.


And yet ... I can't help but remember that the BE Leader Lor'themar also exiled a minority of his own people for the sake of unity because they refused to adhere to Rommath's teachings in order to sate their magic addiction. I rarely see people chastising him for such a decision. Though this does show consistency on his part, he does the exact same thing to the Void Elves for the same reason.

In regards to the attack on Taurajo, yes Baine "expelled Tauren from Thunder Bluff who wished to take retribution against the Alliance for Taurajo". As far as I can tell, it no-where says he exiles them from Mulgore. He also did build that huge !@# wall in between Mulgore and the Southern Barrens in direct response to Taurajo, which the majority of his people approved of (and his dealing with the Quillboar).

Also, a LOT of people overlook this when they criticize Baine for not seeking retribution for Taurajo, remember he also faced enormous criticism just prior to this for remaining part of the Horde AT ALL. He manages to satiate these Tauren by dealing with the Quillboar, but a lot of Tauren rightfully blamed Garrosh's Horde for the hardships they were facing.

Bluntly, while its unfortunately not elaborated on, its highly likely that Taurajo was blamed "rightly" by some on the Alliance (though the Alliance General did attempt to ensure civilians had a way out, which Baine was aware of). Its not a stretch to think that many Tauren also blamed Garrosh for making Taurajo a military target in the first place; when HE declared war on the Alliance.

This tension between the Tauren AND Garrosh's horde would continue to escalate on numerous cultural fronts throughout Garrosh's reign (even during Cata) ... and someone people still expect Baine to be SUPER gung-ho for war under Sylvanas?
10/07/2018 08:37 AMPosted by Droité
... and someone people still expect Baine to be SUPER gung-ho for war under Sylvanas?
I expect him to tear her in half, like he should have Garrosh.
Cairne > Baine

I will never be convinced otherwise.

Anyway, some warchief suggestions for you lads in red:

Raise Cairne into undeath, or have the valkyr stuff him into a new body.

Voljin becomes warchief again, even if he is still a ghost

Retcon this: the kaelthas of BC was a dreadlord sent to finish off the belves. Now you find the real one in an abandoned space prison

Yay or nay?
Baine is a terrible leader

EVen ignoring his request for surrender in 8.1, and his that fact no warchief has ever trusted him, the simple fact he declared his own people a legitimate target and exiled the people who removed an enemy fort from their lands is outstanding.

Even if there wasn't a war (Which there 100% was, not matter what blizz says) the fact he responded to a military attack on his own people by exiling the ones who wanted to stop future attacks is insane.

Before anyone says he was looking at the broader picture, that is not the job of a leader, a leader's job is to try and protect and help their own people. At the very least if there was no war, (Which completely invalidates the idea it was a military target) he should have demanded compensation for the loss of life, resources and property, and demand the big ugly dwarven fort that had been massacring his people for years be removed, or just declare war to protect his people from further incursions, the alliance should not have a military fort in the barrens anyway.

Hell the fact the alliance was building a road through his territory without his permission should have had him show resistance to them in the first place. Especially when they where gonna use it to march troops through his territory.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum