Remember Wildstar

General Discussion
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I see a lot of raider thread complaints about gear and all I have to say to you folks is this.

Remember what happened to Wildstar and all the other MMO who tried to follow your path of ideological destruction.

They catered to raiders.

They catered to the hardcore.

and now its dead.

Don't let that happen to WOW and don't alienate a huge majority of the WOW community, otherwise you won't have a game to play.

Before WOW we had Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot and Asheron Call and they catered to the elites of those games and guess what? When WOW hit the seen it was more casual friendly with more avenues to progress your character.

Now, fast forward 15 years later and "BAM", its a top notch cultural icon in video game history and still going strong.

Don't be that player, and remember your gaming history.

/my 2 cents

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Layman terms for the simple minded. Bold letters for the layman terms of the layman terms ;P

1) Wildstar advertised to be the "Hardcore Raiding MMO". (Trying to appeal to a small minority group of elite players in the MMO world hoping it would bring over Casuals that would want to join in the fun).

2) Forum posts and video complaints about 40 man raiding and raiding in general being to hard. (Raiding had nothing for the Casuals to do)

3) They went free to play within a year. (To boost sub numbers and revenue from loss of subscribers)

4) They didn't develop any new "Hardcore Raiding Content". (Not enough income)

5) They closed down. (Not enough money to sustain the product)

Common sense would tell you that centralizing one aspect of the game for a small minority group doesn't work for MMOs of today nor is it practical for business. You have to appeal to a broader base of players and not just a few.
If you knew anything about that game or its story on how it got to that point, that was remedied really fast.

It failed due to horrible mismanagement by the studio.
10/20/2018 07:51 AMPosted by Óbvious
If you knew anything about that game or its story on how it got to that point, that was remedied really fast.

It failed due to horrible mismanagement by the studio.
Revisionist history doesn't help anyone.
10/20/2018 07:52 AMPosted by Urmog
10/20/2018 07:51 AMPosted by Óbvious
If you knew anything about that game or its story on how it got to that point, that was remedied really fast.

It failed due to horrible mismanagement by the studio.
Revisionist history doesn't help anyone.


I don’t think extrapolating to a convenient argument by false equivalence helps either. Wildstar and WoW had different audiences and while the concepts of hardcore raiding and progression were remotely similar, you cannot simply state that WoW would fail too.
10/20/2018 07:49 AMPosted by Urmog
They catered to raiders.

They catered to the hardcore.

and now its dead
I'm sure there is more to that for why it failed. I mean those could be part of why. But I wouldn't be surprised if there was more to it to failing than that. Like maybe the lore just wasn't doing it for people,etc as well. Not saying that what you said is wrong....Just saying there is always more than just one thing that can cause a game to fail...Which idk on Wildstar as I never really played it or even tried...so I'm just guessing/assuming there was more to it failing than just hardcore....
Not gonna lie I'd absolutely love to see a non goofy serious hardcore fantasy mmo out there (with modern tech). Wildstar looked okay but I tried it and really couldn't stand the questing and how the combat worked. So, hopefully if there are a few options for hardcore fantasy mmo's that'd be awesome.

The thing is they don't have to plan to pull in millions, just make a tough game that is done right. Look at games like Dark Souls, Bloodborne, and the games it inspired by design cause of how well it was done. That was most definitely not a failure! So a well designed and intriguing hardcore tough mmorpg could do very very well. And again I'd LOVE to see it happen, but the combat, progression, dungeons all have to be done top notch and well fleshed out.
People left other games for WoW because it was an already established universe. All of my friends were excited for it because they played the RTS series and loved the story. None of them were interested because it was easier. Sure, you'll have people that were, but people still play runescape and it is the grindiest game in existence. I believe the top pve in runescape 3 is also harder than anything that WoW has ever released.

10/20/2018 07:51 AMPosted by Óbvious
If you knew anything about that game or its story on how it got to that point, that was remedied really fast.

It failed due to horrible mismanagement by the studio.


This is how it failed. People blame NCSoft but they were very patient with the game. The studio management was atrocious.
The thing I see the most is “I don’t have the time to raid”

And that’s really a poor excuse.

Especially with how Blizzard has changed raiding, in the time it takes for you to wait for an LFR queue, you could’ve gotten into a fresh normal or heroic.

It’s the people, not the game. They’re just bad :/
10/20/2018 07:56 AMPosted by Faustim
10/20/2018 07:52 AMPosted by Urmog
...Revisionist history doesn't help anyone.


I don’t think extrapolating to a convenient argument by false equivalence helps either. Wildstar and WoW had different audiences and while the concepts of hardcore raiding and progression were remotely similar, you cannot simply state that WoW would fail too.
Oh but I can because I've been around long enough to see how the industry reacted to World of Warcraft.

Like I said before, we MMO gamers had Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot and Asherons call before WOW and those games catered to a select few. World of Warcraft didn't do that, they expanded the experience and revolutionized the industry.

To many of you are advocating for those old days as new concepts that you believe will be better for the game but it won't be. Your ideology will only hurt the game and make it cease to exist.

Wildstar tried to do exactly what you all wanted, they even advertised on it and it failed.

/End of Discussion
The thing I see the most is “I don’t have the time to raid”

And that’s really a poor excuse.

Especially with how Blizzard has changed raiding, in the time it takes for you to wait for an LFR queue, you could’ve gotten into a fresh normal or heroic.

It’s the people, not the game. They’re just bad :/
People are not you but that doesn't mean they cannot enjoy a good experience.

Their progression is not hurting you, especially when they don't have the time to play as much as you do. Which means you have less competition for a good raiding slot in a raiding guild.

Things to think about, the glass is not always half empty, it might be half full for you.
10/20/2018 07:51 AMPosted by Óbvious
If you knew anything about that game or its story on how it got to that point, that was remedied really fast.

It failed due to horrible mismanagement by the studio.


lol. Wildstar's reason for being was to appeal to hardcore raiders. It was supposed to be vanilla WoW reborn, vanilla WoW incarnate.
10/20/2018 07:52 AMPosted by Urmog
10/20/2018 07:51 AMPosted by Óbvious
If you knew anything about that game or its story on how it got to that point, that was remedied really fast.

It failed due to horrible mismanagement by the studio.
Revisionist history doesn't help anyone.


There is nothing revisionist about it. Carbine killed Wildstar through self inflicted stoopidity[sic]
I love Wildstar, but it failed because it was poorly optimized through the gate. They never worked on optimizing it much. The combat wasn't standard MMORPG combat and people didn't like that. I've never enjoyed leveling in an MMORPG before Wildstar, but it wasn't for most people. Leveling in wildstar was easier than leveling in wow without heirlooms. Most people didn't even make it to cap on Wildstar and the game was easier than WoW's leveling experience.

Wildstar's death was purely due to being poorly managed.
10/20/2018 08:02 AMPosted by Urmog
10/20/2018 07:56 AMPosted by Faustim
...

I don’t think extrapolating to a convenient argument by false equivalence helps either. Wildstar and WoW had different audiences and while the concepts of hardcore raiding and progression were remotely similar, you cannot simply state that WoW would fail too.
Oh but I can because I've been around long enough to see how the industry reacted to World of Warcraft.

Like I said before, we MMO gamers had Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot and Asherons call before WOW and those games catered to a select few. World of Warcraft didn't do that, they expanded the experience and revolutionized the industry.

To many of you are advocating for those old days as new concepts that you believe will be better for the game but it won't be. Your ideology will only hurt the game and make it cease to exist.

Wildstar tried to do exactly what you all wanted, they even advertised on it and it failed.

/End of Discussion


So 8 Million Subs in Vanilla, like 10/11 Million in TBC to Wrath means that catering to a middle ground makes the game fail? I can make an uncorroborated argument stating that by catering to casuals they have lost the large audience and subscription retention hovering around 5 million or less these days.

Your argument like my above example is invalid because it doesn't require facts or truth or anything other than personal opinion.
10/20/2018 07:59 AMPosted by Vaniira
The thing I see the most is “I don’t have the time to raid”

And that’s really a poor excuse.

Especially with how Blizzard has changed raiding, in the time it takes for you to wait for an LFR queue, you could’ve gotten into a fresh normal or heroic.

It’s the people, not the game. They’re just bad :/


Check out the expert of all thing. When I was in the military i had about an hour to play games (sometimes). Raiding most definetley takes more than an hour.

You dont know peoples schedule or how they manage their game time. Calling people bad simply because they dont raid is not the case and just shows how much of a shill you are. Another elitist added to the ever growing list.
OP is totes right... I mean, look at all of the titans of the industry like D&D Online, City of Heroes, and No Man's Sky... these are genre-defining titles that have stood the test of time precisely because they put a low priority on raid content.

Or, wait... maybe this is one of those apples and oranges things, and ascribing the success or faliure of a game based on a single aspect of its content is dumb.
at its most successful wow was infinitely more difficult than it is now.

AT ITS MOST SUCCESSFUL.

at its most successful diablo 2 was infinitely harder than diablo 3 in terms of accumulating gear.

10/20/2018 07:49 AMPosted by Urmog
I see a lot of raider thread complaints about gear and all I have to say to you folks is this.

Remember what happened to Wildstar and all the other MMO who tried to follow your path of ideological destruction.

They catered to raiders.

They catered to the hardcore.

and now its dead.

Don't let that happen to WOW and don't alienate a huge majority of the WOW community, otherwise you won't have a game to play.

Before WOW we had Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot and Asheron Call and they catered to the elites of those games and guess what? When WOW hit the seen it was more casual friendly with more avenues to progress your character.

Now, fast forward 15 years later and "BAM", its a top notch cultural icon in video game history and still going strong.

Don't be that player, and remember your gaming history.

/my 2 cents
10/20/2018 08:09 AMPosted by Dirtytricks
at its most successful wow was infinitely more difficult than it is now.

AT ITS MOST SUCCESSFUL.

at its most successful diablo 2 was infinitely harder than diablo 3 in terms of accumulating gear.

10/20/2018 07:49 AMPosted by Urmog
I see a lot of raider thread complaints about gear and all I have to say to you folks is this.

Remember what happened to Wildstar and all the other MMO who tried to follow your path of ideological destruction.

They catered to raiders.

They catered to the hardcore.

and now its dead.

Don't let that happen to WOW and don't alienate a huge majority of the WOW community, otherwise you won't have a game to play.

Before WOW we had Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot and Asheron Call and they catered to the elites of those games and guess what? When WOW hit the seen it was more casual friendly with more avenues to progress your character.

Now, fast forward 15 years later and "BAM", its a top notch cultural icon in video game history and still going strong.

Don't be that player, and remember your gaming history.

/my 2 cents


When was WoW "more difficult"?
10/20/2018 08:11 AMPosted by Akston
10/20/2018 08:09 AMPosted by Dirtytricks
at its most successful wow was infinitely more difficult than it is now.

AT ITS MOST SUCCESSFUL.

at its most successful diablo 2 was infinitely harder than diablo 3 in terms of accumulating gear.

...


When was WoW "more difficult"?


Wow has never been all that difficult. It has been far more time consuming though.
10/20/2018 08:11 AMPosted by Akston
10/20/2018 08:09 AMPosted by Dirtytricks
at its most successful wow was infinitely more difficult than it is now.

AT ITS MOST SUCCESSFUL.

at its most successful diablo 2 was infinitely harder than diablo 3 in terms of accumulating gear.

...


When was WoW "more difficult"?


BC and WoTLK are great examples, you know, back when wow had enough subs to proudly post its total active subs everywhere and brag about it.

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