What could unravel Anduin?

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11/11/2018 04:50 PMPosted by Savanovic
How is the Horde not spread thin, that's what I want to know. How the hell are they even in Easter Kingdoms pushing that front so hard when Undercity, their main closest city, was blighted and destroyed?

I am going to discount Silvermoon since the writers decided to completely discount the Exodar with goofy excuses. How did the Horde build that giant fortress in Arathi? Like Stromgarde was in ruins sure, but a lot of the structure was already there. That big Horde fortress was like a farm before the warfront lmao.
So how can the Horde both push the Eastern Kingdoms hard AND defend Ashenvale, Darkshore, Barrens etc with the same strength?

"The Alliance were weakened by the Legion" And the Horde weren't?
There are still Alliance bases of operations in Kalimdor, even if people tend to forget about them. They were not ALL wiped out in the War of Thorns.

It just seems one sided to me. "The Horde can go everywhere at any time at full strength, but if the Alliance dare to focus on more than one thing at a time it means their forces are spread too thin and will begin to lose instantly."


I think the easiest way to answer that is to look at the Alliances path of destruction, and it becomes very apparent why the fight for the EK wound up in mutual defeat. The primary base for Forsaken operations was destroyed, but the Alliance took the worst possible path to reach that destination.

In going through Brill they skipped pretty much every other Forsaken outpost in favor of an attack by the sure, it wasn't a slow dismantling of holdings like the War of Thorns. When the Alliance reached the city they were routed twice and denied a base of operations, and just to add insult to injury the war rendered the already scarce resources in front of Lordaeron useless and infested the countryside with skeletons.

Which is probably why the Alliance invasion is coming from Gilneas and Stromgarde, not Trisfal.
11/11/2018 04:50 PMPosted by Savanovic
How is the Horde not spread thin, that's what I want to know. How the hell are they even in Easter Kingdoms pushing that front so hard when Undercity, their main closest city, was blighted and destroyed?


You got to remember that Sylvanas is pretty much Lich King 2.0 in almost every regard. The reason they aren't spread thin is because she's able to raise the fallen of the enemy as well as her own allies. That was one of the critical and most dangerous things the Horde and Alliance had to deal with going in to fight the Lich King.

As far as structural footholds like the on in Arathi, only thing I can guess is that they still have some kind of connection/pipeline to Arathi. You still have Hammerfall and Hillsbrad Foothills and Silverpine. Although Undercity was wiped out, they are still legitimate outposts because the Alliance sailed to Tirisfal from the sea to the north, not via ground incursion from the south. Had it been a march from the south, we would have seen more of a southern destruction in those areas but likely Sylvanas would have been prepared for the Alliance by the time they got to Undercity.

The only real Horde influence is in the north with the Blood Elf territories as well as Silverpine and Hillsbrad. Other than that, I'd imagine either a resurgence for them or removal.
11/11/2018 05:11 PMPosted by Zenretsu
As far as structural footholds like the on in Arathi, only thing I can guess is that they still have some kind of connection/pipeline to Arathi. You still have Hammerfall and Hillsbrad Foothills and Silverpine. Although Undercity was wiped out, they are still legitimate outposts because the Alliance sailed to Tirisfal from the sea to the north, not via ground incursion from the south.


See, I actually understand this. I am simply implying the same can be seriously and logically applied to Kalimdor if we wanted to. FEATHERMOON STRONGHOLD. Hello?
I know developers probably forgot about this or said it got destroyed or something without me knowing it since they hate night elves, but to my knowledge there is a giant fortress with tons of sentinels on the coast of Feralas. Certainly a harbor and ports could have been built since the damn end of Cataclysm 8 years ago here, which can be used to funnel resources into places in Kalimdor. And that's just the first location that comes to mind.

I think player bias comes into play here. If your side is shown to be able to do something, well that's completely stupid and unfair! If my side is able to do it? Well hey, that's just logical!
I think player bias comes into play here. If your side is shown to be able to do something, well that's completely stupid and unfair! If my side is able to do it? Well hey, that's just logical!


Shhh, you will fracture Darethy's fragile confidence in the Horde!
11/11/2018 05:37 PMPosted by Jedfastblast
I think player bias comes into play here. If your side is shown to be able to do something, well that's completely stupid and unfair! If my side is able to do it? Well hey, that's just logical!


Shhh, you will fracture Darethy's fragile confidence in the Horde!


There is a reason I added the caveat it could simply be written off. For the reasons i'v listed I don't think it will, but it could always turn around.

Plus anyone who knows me knows after MoP I have no confidence in the Horde, well, not three fifths of it anyway.
11/11/2018 05:24 PMPosted by Savanovic
See, I actually understand this. I am simply implying the same can be seriously and logically applied to Kalimdor if we wanted to. FEATHERMOON STRONGHOLD.


The thing about Feathermoon is they have no fleet. Sure they are pretty well defended stronghold, but there's not been much in terms of a solid connection between Feralas and Darkshore. You would be passing Thunderbluff or Orgrimmar and either route would mean forces sent that way would be hindered or outright destroyed depending on the Hordes deployed forces.

The only thing I see that Horde thrives in EK is that Silvermoon can send forces through EPL and down into Hillsbrad/Silverpine and into Arathi. They can go through EPL because EPL and WPL are both 'neutral' in that it's more about the Argent Dawn than the Horde and Alliance (also most of it is neutral)

If Blizz got off their lazy good for nothing butts they would allow factions like the Argent Dawn/Crusade and the Cenarion Circle to aid the Alliance while (as it seems) Thrall would return with the Earthen Ring while likely being supported by the another faction to even it out since we do tit for tat.
I mean I think too that if we were taking this really seriously it is hard to believe that certain neutral entities would remain neutral in the face of a war like this.
My main point, really, is that none of this should be thought about too seriously. There are flaws, imo, with the Horde side of things when it comes to taking a look at their reasoning, as well as it seems strange to me for them to be everywhere at once, at least as strange as it is for the Alliance to be everywhere at once.
Pulling his string as he walks away.
11/10/2018 11:31 PMPosted by Saiphas
This is the 5th thread this week related to Villan batting or removing Alliance characters, and the second one involving Anduin. Just FYI


We're only on Monday.... people are still adjusting to last weekend's time change.
Nothing. He is perfect and everything goes his way. (His decision on not sending troops to Darkshore works out for instance on both fronts)
Anduin can't get a break. the half of the playerbase that hates him because he's too perfect is matched by the half that can't stand him because he's not his Hero Chin dad.
11/12/2018 05:09 PMPosted by Drahliana
Anduin can't get a break. the half of the playerbase that hates him because he's too perfect is matched by the half that can't stand him because he's not his Hero Chin dad.


So true.

Anduin Hater #1: He's a flawless Mary Sue that can do no wrong!

Anduin Hater #2: He's naive, too idealistic and keeps making tactical mistakes because he's too inexperienced and focused on trying to save lives on both sides!

Me: Yeah. Both complaints seem legit!
11/12/2018 09:09 PMPosted by Jazia
Anduin Hater #2: He's naive, too idealistic and keeps making tactical mistakes because he's too inexperienced and focused on trying to save lives on both sides!


Honestly that's kind of a redeeming quality, he can't really be a Mary Sue if he's shown clearly making some mistakes.

I think he's a bit too composed, but then again, he's gone through and seen a lot of serious stuff.

I want to see him like he was when he cratered that troll during the opening BfA cinematic. I want to see some unbridled righteous fury that he can easily bring if the damn devs let him.

He is the absolute culmination of all of his greatest teachers molded into one. Where is the Varian/Genn lessons going to come in. That cinematic is one. Right now he is more akin to Velen/Tyrande in that he's calm and calculating(Sorta).

Basically, I want to see Anduin pop Avenging Wrath and have the most glorious badassery ever displayed by an Alliance hero.
11/12/2018 09:31 PMPosted by Zenretsu
Basically, I want to see Anduin pop Avenging Wrath and have the most glorious badassery ever displayed by an Alliance hero.

But Avenging Wrath is a Paladin ability. And Anduin is a Priest.

A plate wearing, sword wielding, hammer of light throwing Priest. According to the devs.
11/12/2018 09:09 PMPosted by Jazia
Anduin Hater #1: He's a flawless Mary Sue that can do no wrong!

Anduin Hater #2: He's naive, too idealistic and keeps making tactical mistakes because he's too inexperienced and focused on trying to save lives on both sides!


Anduin Hater #1: is complaining from a meta perspective. How the narrative often frames him as a perfect being that can do no wrong.

Anduin Hater #2: is complaining from an in universe perspective whereas his naivete and idealism are leading him to make crucial mistakes, even if the narrative ultimately bends the universe around to make him right in the end.

I'm not saying I'm agreeing with both or either, but they are both possible at the same time.
11/12/2018 09:36 PMPosted by Galenorn
11/12/2018 09:31 PMPosted by Zenretsu
Basically, I want to see Anduin pop Avenging Wrath and have the most glorious badassery ever displayed by an Alliance hero.

But Avenging Wrath is a Paladin ability. And Anduin is a Priest.

A plate wearing, sword wielding, hammer of light throwing Priest. According to the devs.
He's also a Warrior since he beats 3 warriors to death in the BFA intro cinema.
I feel like Defias could serve as a punch in the gut to Anduin. Both times they've had legitimate grievances and both times they've been beaten down instead of reconciliation taking place. The fact that they killed his mother is just icing on the cake.

Vanessa is also close enough to Anduins age and lost her father to Stormwind's forces. Could have a good duality/foil to the two characters.
Maybe not being able to use the light which results in Stormwind getting wrecked. it would have to be due to him having a moment of doubt though so he blames himself for it. No possible rescue or anything like that. He just has to watch everyone die and there's nothing he can do about it.
11/12/2018 09:31 PMPosted by Zenretsu
11/12/2018 09:09 PMPosted by Jazia
Anduin Hater #2: He's naive, too idealistic and keeps making tactical mistakes because he's too inexperienced and focused on trying to save lives on both sides!


Honestly that's kind of a redeeming quality, he can't really be a Mary Sue if he's shown clearly making some mistakes.


Pretty much.

I think he's a bit too composed, but then again, he's gone through and seen a lot of serious stuff.

I want to see him like he was when he cratered that troll during the opening BfA cinematic. I want to see some unbridled righteous fury that he can easily bring if the damn devs let him.


You saw that scene differently than I did I think.

I would like to point out that 2 seconds after that he drops his sword to reembrace his calling as a healer.

He is the absolute culmination of all of his greatest teachers molded into one. Where is the Varian/Genn lessons going to come in. That cinematic is one. Right now he is more akin to Velen/Tyrande in that he's calm and calculating(Sorta).

Basically, I want to see Anduin pop Avenging Wrath and have the most glorious badassery ever displayed by an Alliance hero.


That Anduin wouldn't be Anduin.

Which goes back to what Drahliana said. Many people dislike him just because he's not Varian + holy powers.

11/12/2018 09:36 PMPosted by Galenorn
11/12/2018 09:31 PMPosted by Zenretsu
Basically, I want to see Anduin pop Avenging Wrath and have the most glorious badassery ever displayed by an Alliance hero.

But Avenging Wrath is a Paladin ability. And Anduin is a Priest.

A plate wearing, sword wielding, hammer of light throwing Priest. According to the devs.


Anduin is a Priest because he thinks of himself as a Priest.

He's focused on healing wounds, both mental and physical, peace and spirituality above all things. He has a pretty set of armor and is competent with a sword, but he is not a warrior and doesn't have a warriors mentality.

That is enough to distinguish him from a true Paladin in my eyes.

11/12/2018 09:38 PMPosted by Nairdrix
11/12/2018 09:09 PMPosted by Jazia
Anduin Hater #1: He's a flawless Mary Sue that can do no wrong!

Anduin Hater #2: He's naive, too idealistic and keeps making tactical mistakes because he's too inexperienced and focused on trying to save lives on both sides!


Anduin Hater #1: is complaining from a meta perspective. How the narrative often frames him as a perfect being that can do no wrong.


Not just a meta view, I've seen many posters sincerely describe him as flawless, too good and incapable of making mistakes.

He isn't a Sue because he does make mistakes and there are consequences for his actions. Just not the ones that those posters want to see. (A different leader appointed for the Alliance.)

Funny enough the badass Paladin some would love actually would be more of a Sue, because by removing the profound respect for life that is one of his fundamental character traits, it also removes the potential associated flaws. He's too sensitive, suffers from doubt, indecisiveness and inaction stemming from his desire to protect all life and create peace. Which ultimately creates problems for him and his people.

Guilt-free smiting of all who oppose him removes that conflict.

Anduin Hater #2: is complaining from an in universe perspective whereas his naivete and idealism are leading him to make crucial mistakes, even if the narrative ultimately bends the universe around to make him right in the end.


I see this complaint a lot.

I don't really see this in game however.

Sincere question: how is the narrative bending around him?

He hasn't been dethroned, but that isn't really that unrealistic. many military leaders have made more serious blunders and retained their positions. He's the reigning king of the most powerful race in the Alliance, removing him would be crippling to morale and potentially the Alliance war effort. And a lot of his mistakes are ones that the other military leaders should be sharing the blame for (Not to mention the writers)
A bit of an odd tangent, but I could see him being unraveled by fatigue from people around him increasingly failing to respect his ideals - especially if them doing so keeps paying off for the overall health of the Alliance. Basically, take the post 8.1 bit with everyone celebrating the Zandalar victory, and keep that sort of narrative going - the people around him increasingly just care about winning the war instead of any sort of compassion for the Horde survivors or anything. Also, the Alliance keeps resorting to less than noble means to their victories. Maybe they kill Saurfang, and the fallout, again, works to their advantage. So, nothing ever goes wrong for the Alliance as a whole, but everything keeps going wrong for Anduin on a personal level.

Basically, he learns that the average footman, and mostly everyone else around him, cares much less about honor and morality and much more about just winning the war (and possibly the spoils of war).

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