Wow this Timewalking thing really shows something..

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11/14/2018 10:13 PMPosted by Arryk
Ahh so you didn't know where snowflake came from then, did you?

I think you calling out the term toxic masculinity is why you got that response.
Most people know where Snowflake came from, because what happens in fight club stays in fight club. lol.
11/14/2018 05:27 AMPosted by Revlol
TW isn't hard, people just seem to forget how dungeons used to be, people used to not using there CC, interrupts, CDs on trash.

The average player population is garbage, it's not an opinion, it's an objective fact as shown by the performance shown in TW, content designed to be accessible to the more casual player base.

Basically, what we're seeing now, is what happens when the casual playerbase has to deal with something that isn't completely braindead.

Nah. The idea that people who weren't even playing or weren't doing dungeons back during BC should somehow "remember" everything about every mob in every dungeon they may only have passed through once or twice on normal is what's garbage.

This is queuable content, presented as content for all above the minimum level. It needs to be completable by a random group irrespective of what classes the dungeon finder throws together.

It's simply an objective fact that people who didn't do them as progression back in the day have no way of reaching the level of expertise that you are suddenly demanding.
11/14/2018 10:16 PMPosted by Oriendaria
Black morass was litterly the only dungeon and heroic that didn't require crowd control. Everything else did. Yes there are mobs out there that can't be controlled. But we are talking about mobs that can be. Crowd control is your friend. Becuase I hope to God blizzard brings back those tactics of crowd control. Tired of this tank everything mind set.
classic can't come fast enough.
11/14/2018 10:21 PMPosted by Jelybeantoes
11/14/2018 05:27 AMPosted by Revlol
TW isn't hard, people just seem to forget how dungeons used to be, people used to not using there CC, interrupts, CDs on trash.

The average player population is garbage, it's not an opinion, it's an objective fact as shown by the performance shown in TW, content designed to be accessible to the more casual player base.

Basically, what we're seeing now, is what happens when the casual playerbase has to deal with something that isn't completely braindead.

Nah. The idea that people who weren't even playing or weren't doing dungeons back during BC should somehow "remember" everything about every mob in every dungeon they may only have passed through once or twice on normal is what's garbage.

This is queuable content, presented as content for all above the minimum level. It needs to be completable by a random group irrespective of what classes the dungeon finder throws together.

It's simply an objective fact that people who didn't do them as progression back in the day have no way of reaching the level of expertise that you are suddenly demanding.


No your mindset is what's garbage.
If you fail due to taking more damage you have options.
The fact that you don't even think to use cc at all and have to be told to use it just shows how far your average player has fallen in this game.
The fact that you act like having to use your tool kit in group content is a bad thing is pathetic.
Why else do you have those abilities?
11/14/2018 10:16 PMPosted by Oriendaria
Black morass was litterly the only dungeon and heroic that didn't require crowd control. Everything else did. Yes there are mobs out there that can't be controlled. But we are talking about mobs that can be. Crowd control is your friend. Becuase I hope to God blizzard brings back those tactics of crowd control. Tired of this tank everything mind set.
Same. I'm always looking for an opportunity to CC or Soothe even in todays game. It's not required for the content these days for sure, but I feel more engaged as a player reacting to these things and assisting the team with my whole kit anyway.

11/14/2018 09:38 PMPosted by Hirai
You know, I read through a few pages, and I'd like to point out something:

People go "CC CC CC CC CC CC"

Um, some CC does not work on mobs that are already in combat and most CC has restrictions on what mobtypes you can CC.

My OP was about Black Morass.

You know, that instance where portals spawn, and the mobs that spawn from them are instantly in combat (which means you ain't gonna Sap it, not that you can Sap Dragonkin anyways) and you CAN'T CC them? And what if you have a group makeup that can't CC dragonkin? I mean you could have a DK as a tank, a warrior, a rogue, a shaman healer, and maybe something like a shadow priest or a 2nd warrior, mage, or something? Then what? You ain't CCing anything with that group setup.

EDIT: And even if you DID have a CC capable class in there, like a hunter (like I was playing at the time), you throw a freezing trap and 0.5s later either the tank or a DPS hits it with an AoE because every class has AoE baked into their rotation now, especially in Black Morass when the mobs spawn ontop of you as soon as they come out of the portals.

Sap is the only CC that can only be used out of combat in todays game.
Yes some restrictions apply, but they aren't heavy. Sap does affect Dragonkin.

I the setup you suggested at best you would have 1 AoE stun, 2 single target stuns with a cooldown, 1 repeatable single target stun, 1 AoE fear, and then depending on your last picks, additional single target stuns, or AoE roots.

Did you use the Chrono-Beacons that you acquire from Sa'at? They can be very helpful.

Edit: If people are breaking said CC as well that is simply bad mechanics. Again it has nothing to do with the tuning of the content and it is very much the player's fault not Blizzard's.
11/14/2018 10:21 PMPosted by Jelybeantoes
11/14/2018 05:27 AMPosted by Revlol
TW isn't hard, people just seem to forget how dungeons used to be, people used to not using there CC, interrupts, CDs on trash.

The average player population is garbage, it's not an opinion, it's an objective fact as shown by the performance shown in TW, content designed to be accessible to the more casual player base.

Basically, what we're seeing now, is what happens when the casual playerbase has to deal with something that isn't completely braindead.

Nah. The idea that people who weren't even playing or weren't doing dungeons back during BC should somehow "remember" everything about every mob in every dungeon they may only have passed through once or twice on normal is what's garbage.

This is queuable content, presented as content for all above the minimum level. It needs to be completable by a random group irrespective of what classes the dungeon finder throws together.

It's simply an objective fact that people who didn't do them as progression back in the day have no way of reaching the level of expertise that you are suddenly demanding.

That is a subjective fact. Why is it impossible for them to reach a level of expertise that includes "don't AoE or target CCd mobs" or "press that button in your spell book that stops the enemy from attacking you for 1 minute"?

You really have no respect for the players you are trying to defend if you believe they are incapable of such simple feats.
It just takes them to use a different approach to the problem, it's not a huge mechanical demand.
11/14/2018 10:38 PMPosted by Haavi
11/14/2018 10:21 PMPosted by Jelybeantoes
...
Nah. The idea that people who weren't even playing or weren't doing dungeons back during BC should somehow "remember" everything about every mob in every dungeon they may only have passed through once or twice on normal is what's garbage.

This is queuable content, presented as content for all above the minimum level. It needs to be completable by a random group irrespective of what classes the dungeon finder throws together.

It's simply an objective fact that people who didn't do them as progression back in the day have no way of reaching the level of expertise that you are suddenly demanding.

That is a subjective fact. Why is it impossible for them to reach a level of expertise that includes "don't AoE or target CCd mobs" or "press that button in your spell book that stops the enemy from attacking you for 1 minute"?

You really have no respect for the players you are trying to defend if you believe they are incapable of such simple feats.
It just takes them to use a different approach to the problem, it's not a huge mechanical demand.

Exactly my point. People just need to start thinking about the entire toolkit they have available.
It's honestly a nice change of pace from the days of "omg let's aoe everything down
11/14/2018 10:38 PMPosted by Haavi
11/14/2018 10:21 PMPosted by Jelybeantoes
...
Nah. The idea that people who weren't even playing or weren't doing dungeons back during BC should somehow "remember" everything about every mob in every dungeon they may only have passed through once or twice on normal is what's garbage.

This is queuable content, presented as content for all above the minimum level. It needs to be completable by a random group irrespective of what classes the dungeon finder throws together.

It's simply an objective fact that people who didn't do them as progression back in the day have no way of reaching the level of expertise that you are suddenly demanding.

That is a subjective fact. Why is it impossible for them to reach a level of expertise that includes "don't AoE or target CCd mobs" or "press that button in your spell book that stops the enemy from attacking you for 1 minute"?

You really have no respect for the players you are trying to defend if you believe they are incapable of such simple feats.
It just takes them to use a different approach to the problem, it's not a huge mechanical demand.


Because back in the day developing that CC focused mindset took a lot longer than a week.

Most people aren’t stupid enough to learn a whole new play style that will be gone in five days, and won’t reappear for another 150 or so.
11/14/2018 10:41 PMPosted by Tyriellais
11/14/2018 10:38 PMPosted by Haavi
...
That is a subjective fact. Why is it impossible for them to reach a level of expertise that includes "don't AoE or target CCd mobs" or "press that button in your spell book that stops the enemy from attacking you for 1 minute"?

You really have no respect for the players you are trying to defend if you believe they are incapable of such simple feats.
It just takes them to use a different approach to the problem, it's not a huge mechanical demand.


Because back in the day developing that CC focused mindset took a lot longer than a week.

Most people aren’t stupid enough to learn a whole new play style that will be gone in five days, and won’t reappear for another 150 or so.

Then they should not QQ.
It's like expecting to be able to do Mythic +'s without learning how to do them. Yes this version is limited timewise, but it has requirements because of how the game was back then.
11/14/2018 10:41 PMPosted by Tyriellais
11/14/2018 10:38 PMPosted by Haavi
...
That is a subjective fact. Why is it impossible for them to reach a level of expertise that includes "don't AoE or target CCd mobs" or "press that button in your spell book that stops the enemy from attacking you for 1 minute"?

You really have no respect for the players you are trying to defend if you believe they are incapable of such simple feats.
It just takes them to use a different approach to the problem, it's not a huge mechanical demand.


Because back in the day developing that CC focused mindset took a lot longer than a week.

Most people aren’t stupid enough to learn a whole new play style that will be gone in five days, and won’t reappear for another 150 or so.

People in vanilla were using cc straight out of the gate.
If people today really need an entire week to realize they need to cc on pull and pull back...
Man people really are getting dumber.
11/14/2018 09:38 PMPosted by Hirai
My OP was about Black Morass.


You don't need to CC on Black Morass. Just pick up and kill the add quickly so the tank doesn't get overwhelmed. Hell, cleave damage is so much more ridiculous than it used to be. If the tank just picks it up in AOE, even odds it'll just die on accident. If the tank flakes out and doesn't pick it up at all, just have a ranged solo kite it.

Tank will get hit pretty hard by the melee portal guards, but he should be keeping active mitigation up at all times. You can hold out for quite a while even if you get unlucky with bad DPS and avoidance rolls. Don't be afraid to use your 1-2m cooldowns, there's a lot of downtime. Temporus is the only particularly threatening boss, so ration survival around him --especially if you have no purge to remove his haste.

The excuse people are making that "nobody remembers this stuff" is half bunk. Trash sure, though you should always pull with an eye for safety if you don't know what they do (God knows I didn't remember half the trash) because fears and surprise casters are common, and should always have an eye out for patrols and be proactive getting them when you have a clean shot. Even flying blind there's a lot the group can do. For bosses, you have a guide that literally spells out every boss's moveset so there's not much excuse -- hit shift-J while burning down the last mob of a pull and read up before you get there.

11/14/2018 10:21 PMPosted by Jelybeantoes
Nah. The idea that people who weren't even playing or weren't doing dungeons back during BC should somehow "remember" everything about every mob in every dungeon they may only have passed through once or twice on normal is what's garbage.

This is queuable content, presented as content for all above the minimum level. It needs to be completable by a random group irrespective of what classes the dungeon finder throws together.

It's simply an objective fact that people who didn't do them as progression back in the day have no way of reaching the level of expertise that you are suddenly demanding.


You don't have to remember or have been there the first time around. I forgot a good bit of the trash and about half the middle bosses myself. But I pulled carefully just in case to gauge abilities, looked up bosses in the Guide on the way there, and briefed teammates on gotcha mechanics that I remembered or saw in the Guide entry.

We're not asking for "expertise". We're asking for proficiency. Not charging blindly into unknown trash, taking a few seconds to read the Guide and brief yourself on upcoming bosses' abilities, being ready to hit defensives and cooldowns if/when you get surprised, and noticing when problem mobs do Scary Things so you can CC or kill them first later. That's it. That's just not being a stereotypical reckless LFR hero. This is the default approach anyone intelligent enough not to go dancing in traffic should be taking to any unfamiliar situation in this game.
11/14/2018 10:46 PMPosted by Matcauthon
People in vanilla were using cc straight out of the gate.
If people today really need an entire week to realize they need to cc on pull and pull back...
Man people really are getting dumber.

lol ikr? Like cmon. Take the bull by the horns, don't go google how to do everything. Actually use critical thinking. You have the tools!
11/14/2018 10:41 PMPosted by Tyriellais

Because back in the day developing that CC focused mindset took a lot longer than a week.

Most people aren’t stupid enough to learn a whole new play style that will be gone in five days, and won’t reappear for another 150 or so.

It doesn't mean that they can't take steps towards doing it. Certainly they aren't going to go from never using CC to always being aware of when to use it.

However if they go into a dungeon, get wiped by the trash and wonder how they can prevent it, it is reasonable to assume that they can look at their spell book at this point and go "I can probably use this to take this creature out of the fight"
11/14/2018 11:05 PMPosted by Haavi
11/14/2018 10:41 PMPosted by Tyriellais

Because back in the day developing that CC focused mindset took a lot longer than a week.

Most people aren’t stupid enough to learn a whole new play style that will be gone in five days, and won’t reappear for another 150 or so.

It doesn't mean that they can't take steps towards doing it. Certainly they aren't going to go from never using CC to always being aware of when to use it.

However if they go into a dungeon, get wiped by the trash and wonder how they can prevent it, it is reasonable to assume that they can look at their spell book at this point and go "I can probably use this to take this creature out of the fight"


Woah woah. Based on the responses I'm seeing so far that is actually unreasonable.
Just going to point out as well that the people who are writing these guides for new players are failing the player base miserably.

All guides are written with the same mentality. You take a look at any of the ones on Wowhead or Icy Veins.
They step you through talents, rotations, stat priorities, cooldowns, traits etc. then right at the bottom only during a "list of abilities" do they mark down the utility the class has.

Take Assassination Rogue guide on wowhead for example, page topics go as follows.
Rotation, Pull, Cooldowns, Core Priorities, example openers w/ a specific trait, example openers w/o a specific trait, further mechanics, resources, poisons, defensive cooldowns, passive abilities, UTILITY ABILITIES, glyphs.

Right at the end assuming you got to that, and not a single mention on the "quick start guide".

This is kind of an issue.
Use all of your 70+ legendary items they work in TW.
11/14/2018 11:07 PMPosted by Matcauthon

Woah woah. Based on the responses I'm seeing so far that is actually unreasonable.

Haha, my apologies I forgot it's unreasonable to expect people to press more than their 4 rotational abilities. But you can be damn sure that you will hear about them saying that "classes have been dumbed down too far" and "Blizzard stop pruning"
11/14/2018 11:20 PMPosted by Haavi
11/14/2018 11:07 PMPosted by Matcauthon

Woah woah. Based on the responses I'm seeing so far that is actually unreasonable.

Haha, my apologies I forgot it's unreasonable to expect people to press more than their 4 rotational abilities. But you can be damn sure that you will hear about them saying that "classes have been dumbed down too far" and "Blizzard stop pruning"


Exactly. I still remember the raging on the forums about Cata dungeons.
11/14/2018 10:19 PMPosted by Melaned
11/14/2018 10:13 PMPosted by Arryk
Ahh so you didn't know where snowflake came from then, did you?

I think you calling out the term toxic masculinity is why you got that response.
Most people know where Snowflake came from, because what happens in fight club stays in fight club. lol.


A few things...

1. Tyler Durdan did not create the concept of “Snowflake.” A man named “Snowflake” Bentley researched water crystallization and concluded that no two Snowflakes are exactly alike, leading to Tyler’s sarcastic application of it to his space Monkeys.

2. The Alt Right has hijacked the term to apply to social justice warriors because for all of their high minded liberal ideals and “beautiful” individuality...they still melt when you turn up the heat. Ironically, Fight Club is all about toxic masculinity.

3. Being a snowflake is boring. Sure under a microscope, you are all pretty as an individual...but when you step away from that microscope and look out the window at the Blizzard, it loses its charm. When all you see is a blanket of white, millions of beautiful individual snowflakes doing their own thing...you feel oppressed and wish it were spring.

4. Snow by itself is plain. When all you see is white, you notice things that stand out. You don’t see the white flakes anymore...

You see the yellow snow.

The brown snow.

The red snow.

The figurative lesson from that observation is that you can be beautiful and unique all you want, and still be lost in the Blizzard. It’s the snow that has been through some !@#$, that has come out stained by life....that catches the attention.

Food for thought.

*this philosophical PSA was brought to you by Mary Jane Muse LLC*
11/13/2018 04:13 PMPosted by Lillyann
11/13/2018 04:12 PMPosted by Hirai
...

That's why I kinda lump tank+heal together when the tank dies. It's one, or the other, or both and it's hard to tell which without some kind of parsing thing...

I don't really know which fault it was, I just know that when the tank drops dead on one elite+2-3 non-elites SOMETHING is going vastly wrong.

Though, if the tank is wearing any kind of modern gear, there's no way he should be dying on a Portal Keeper unless the healer had their fingers someplace fingers shouldn't be.


In my group the tank did drop dead, and the rest of us 4 finished it off lol

The other 4 runs weren't bad, especially the last run. Great Bear tank there.


This is the worst week for my monk so far. I can handle the other TW easily...but with a paladin healer it was ROUGH...Druid wasn't so bad at all. Though this is the first time my stagger has been insanely high from the get go. Like...one pull and had half a bar in 2 seconds.

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