8.1 How hpal will be wrecked by one sac.

Arenas
Having One sac is going to completely wreck hpal. i am going to discuss why hpal is good in the current meta (not hpal specifically) and why hpal is lackluster in most cases and how they dont possess nearly enough raw healing output.

Healing as hpal now Vs Legion

The amount of effort to get a sac is almost effortless for most comps, and our only real "save" thats used usually within the first 30 seconds of the game. With the changes, its gonna be "saccd you, now i got nothing for you at all for 2 minutes" (bops are not even close to a "safe" CD, they are a joke as their insta dispelled by belf DH any shaman priests mages ect and we have the most unreliable purge protection) The other big problem with these talent changes is that although some of these talent choices are...interesting to say the least, you just wouldn't take them over lights grace/ultimate sac. WE HAD A 70% REDUCTION FROM SAC DAMAGE TO NOW NOTHING. Its halarious when kfc was OP this season you would sac someone, run behind a pillar, and spam heal urself hopiing not to die from sac dmg. If you didnt run LOS the warrior touches u, you use a global to freedom and ur already executed.

-30 yard aura range and 15% shadow damage is complete and utter trash and will never be taken for any reason with the choice of the other talents. Blizzard is basically adding a talent that wont even be used. An utter waste in my opinion. Cant even see this being used in RBGs.

My guess, is that most paladins will be taking divine favor (Now a 25 sec healing to even keep up with the healing, and you will need lights grace with this talent as well as ultimate sac) and dropping blessed hands. So now, the 1 sac Nerf, has become a nerf furthermore because blessed hands has less value due the unreliability of bop.

When compared to legion hpal were basically back to the same thing, not only have we lost so many essential artifact traits that held the class up (more than ppl are aware) but now were expected to deal with the dmg but dont have the catchup healing required.

with our meele wings being a 2 minute cd from one minute, as well as it being 20 seconds long (so easy to CC it and lose its value) VS legions 30 seconds (then nerfed later to 25) HOW DO MONKS STILL HAVE WOTC ON A 1 MINUTE CD AND THEY LITERALLY DO 2X THE DAMAGE OF CURRENT MEELE WINGS. IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE. isnt it like something crazy like 40k rising sun kicks and like 6k blackouts that are chained vs a hpallys 5-7k crusader strikes and 9-11k judgements. Judgement also plays a bigger effect on meele wings, if someone dodges ur judgement youre SOL kid. Crusader strikes are weak healing, maybe like 11k on average.

our holy shock trait being removed, the light saves, (every 30 seconds your next holy light will heal for 100% more of targets who fall before 50%) tyrs deliverance, (a MASSSIVE CD that let our holy light heal 40% more and was a good HOT) Silver hand (Chance to proc from holy light, increases ur next holy shock by 10% of all dmg and healing done in the last 8 seconds)

Now were ganna get all those ppl hating us "disgusting repentance paladins" bc were forced to play something super aggressive and gimmicky comps. hpal has ultimately been a very fast paced healer, often needing games to be 1-3 minutes long, and even with double sac anything over 2-3 minutes long means your probably going to end up losing. Now were gonna need even shorter games than before, probably around 1-2 min games in 3s or you will just lose.

THE PROBLEM AT THE MINUTE WITH HPAL AND ITS BIGGEST PROBLEM

You simply dont face hpally comps at high rating unless its RMpala (sure hpallys que at 2700ish running a select few other comps but generally You dont see them running something else at the highest level, sure double mage but lets be real for a minute)
Paladins weren't wanted in arena at the start of bfa and i literally struggled to get into 2kcr games in lfg while i was at 22-2300cr. Ppl didnt care what cr i was they would simply say "sorry man we dont want a hpally." (except for when BM arms was busted bc u could just bop sac and they kill something before u run out of cds which is exactly how rogue mage is atm), even streamers would answer the old question "best healers atm?" and they would always say hpally as the weakest healer and the ONLY buff weve recieved in that time is a 7% holy light and flash of light buff. Ppl suddenly start getting this falsified idea that hpallys are all the in a good spot because of rogue mage (fire assas) when ppl finally found out oh hey fire assas is still a broken comp, lets grab a hpal and have him bop us to get free polys and have ultimate sac to stay aggressive the entire damn game.... and THERE LIES THE PROBLEM WITH HPALLY! IT COMPLIMENTS FIRE ASSAS WITH ITS TOOLS SO WELL!!! TOO DAMN WELL!! and hpally as a class becomes heavily overlooked as you have now have hpallys showing a large representation at higher ratings, but with ONE comp. You all the sudden dont have such the downfall of containing a low healing output because mage peels, utility, stuns, short games, mobility and the defensive of all three classes. hpally is the only healer that can literally juke 2 kicks from a meele and die from 50% while spamming heals. Literally, any DH warrior who trains me, will kill me. I could juke every kick back to back, it doesnt matter, i will eventually die from raw damage and the continuation of stuns. We have to cast everything on ourself (sure lotm isnt a cast, its a measly 15k heal that kills yourself, but u cant LOTM yourself) and have very poor healing output outside of wings, even spam casting holy lights.

but pallies arent amazing, their amazing with rogue mage, which is LITERALLY the only tier 1 comp for pally. i couldn't even think of another tier 2 comp yet alone a tier 1 with a hpally that doesnt have rogue mage in the comp. Maybe like boomy enh or fmpal but i mean come on.

My ultimate resolve is

PALADINS NEED AT LEAST TWO SACS AND ULTIMATE SAC NEEDS TO BE REMOVED.


Blizzards genius design of ultimate sac has ultimately lead us here. Great mechanic blizzard. Although i feel ultimate sac is a somewhat of a staple at this point, if it means keeping 2 sacs, then get rid of it. Why? With what ive already said, Hpals are the EASIEST HEALER TO CC. hands down. Shamans get shear/grounding 30 SECOND CD /ghostwolf (reps anyway) priests get Death on a TWELVE SECOND CD druid 0 SECOND CD SHAPESHIFTIING monk PORT ROLL

then we get to hpals, Their stop for CC is a sac (and with ultimate sac is meant as a defensive, not a CC breaker) on a TWO MINUTE CD. How well cld one play to avoid CC on themselves with one sac? you cant. Having two sacs let you have one for a moment where you need to presac a CC such as a poly. This leaves the class with such low potential no matter who is playing the class, and will now be more "comp" dependent than ever.
11/14/2018 08:12 AMPosted by Zêzima
HOW DO MONKS STILL HAVE WOTC ON A 1 MINUTE CD AND THEY LITERALLY DO 2X THE DAMAGE OF CURRENT MEELE WINGS.
For 25% of our mana, costs a global to use, only makes us immune to roots/snares, and lasts 15s.

11/14/2018 08:12 AMPosted by Zêzima
if someone dodges ur judgement youre SOL kid.
Only if you're hitting a DH or Rogue at the wrong time would that be possible.

11/14/2018 08:13 AMPosted by Zêzima
hpally is the only healer that can literally juke 2 kicks from a meele and die from 50% while spamming heals. Literally, any DH warrior who trains me, will kill me.
That's just the current state of healing for everyone except perhaps MWs. We just 100-0 in stuns instead.

11/14/2018 08:13 AMPosted by Zêzima
Hpals are the EASIEST HEALER TO CC.
Hmmm not sure about that.
25% of mana. Its called mana tea into crane. Youre class is disgusting when it comes to healing, id MUCH prefer anyone elses feedback but a disgusting MW. a 1500 MW could keep his team alive even when pushing essesnce font on CD in arena. lol.

or hey lets just pop our Aura master heal so we dont have to worry about being kicked.

Mw is the easiest joke class of healer there is, SURE its not the best in the meta, but when it comes to healing. my god.
I can post on my Rsham or Hpally too, if that'll calm you down. Please stop shouting :(
While i would say that this nerf to Hpal is going to force me off mine. I wouldn't say that MW or any healer is really op.

Healers in general right now are being treated as cannon fodder. You have to absolutely play out of your mind at all times to beat the simplest of comps as most healers. There is an exception to this rule, and its exactly as you stated, if a DPS combo has good synergy with a healer then the healer appears OP.

If there were two really OP dps specs that went well with MW, then these nerfs would be happening to MW. I play most healers, in legion i played al but Rsham. Im not exactly a pro, not even close, I understand the game mechanics very well though.
Just remove ultimate sac, keep two sacs, buff healing output. Not sure why no Hpals ask for this, ultimate sac is clearly the issue. Two sacs can still get used for CC breaks and with higher healing output you can keep your team alive if you avoid CC well.
11/14/2018 08:38 AMPosted by Dillon
Just remove ultimate sac, keep two sacs, buff healing output. Not sure why no Hpals ask for this, ultimate sac is clearly the issue. Two sacs can still get used for CC breaks and with higher healing output you can keep your team alive if you avoid CC well.
we did, like a thousand times. purge heavy meta and one sac is gonna wreck us.
11/14/2018 08:37 AMPosted by Masimove
While i would say that this nerf to Hpal is going to force me off mine. I wouldn't say that MW or any healer is really op.

Healers in general right now are being treated as cannon fodder. You have to absolutely play out of your mind at all times to beat the simplest of comps as most healers. There is an exception to this rule, and its exactly as you stated, if a DPS combo has good synergy with a healer then the healer appears OP.

If there were two really OP dps specs that went well with MW, then these nerfs would be happening to MW. I play most healers, in legion i played al but Rsham. Im not exactly a pro, not even close, I understand the game mechanics very well though.


i get what youre saying. Monks are good with turbo but not every comp, but they sure can heal any comp if they wanted. They have a disarm, ring of peace (u can ring mage polys as well or stop a target from running to a pillar by placing a ring on it, or knocking someone off) as well as pre enveloping a target, making any CC they enter not as detrimental.
11/14/2018 08:38 AMPosted by Dillon
Just remove ultimate sac, keep two sacs, buff healing output. Not sure why no Hpals ask for this, ultimate sac is clearly the issue. Two sacs can still get used for CC breaks and with higher healing output you can keep your team alive if you avoid CC well.


We can agree on something dilly.
11/14/2018 08:38 AMPosted by Dillon
Just remove ultimate sac, keep two sacs, buff healing output. Not sure why no Hpals ask for this, ultimate sac is clearly the issue. Two sacs can still get used for CC breaks and with higher healing output you can keep your team alive if you avoid CC well.


TBH against MOST comps ultimate sac is a L2P issue. You know how many games i've lost cause i used ultimate sac and behind a pillar spamming heals i couldn't heal the damage i was ticking? Most of the time the DPS tunnel my sac target then just swap to me and im down to 50% health. Outside of Wings Hpal healing is not very good at all. Our only means of victory is these big cool downs. we don't have the realiable healing that other classes have, we have cool downs.

Which is OKAY. Its fun to have healing classes that have various strengths. I like playing my disc cause it feels hybrid and intense that i have to find opportunities to do damage. I love playing my druid cause I can keep some heals up as i get CC, but don't get caught out of bear form, you'll die.

I like playing my monk cause its mobile, fast, heals to full quickly, but if my kite game is weak or im facing very mobile melee... its gonna be tough.

Hpals niche is big cds to extend the game, our weakness is our actually healing output requires us to stand still and even then it isn't high quality healing.
11/14/2018 08:42 AMPosted by Masimove
11/14/2018 08:38 AMPosted by Dillon
Just remove ultimate sac, keep two sacs, buff healing output. Not sure why no Hpals ask for this, ultimate sac is clearly the issue. Two sacs can still get used for CC breaks and with higher healing output you can keep your team alive if you avoid CC well.


TBH against MOST comps ultimate sac is a L2P issue. You know how many games i've lost cause i used ultimate sac and behind a pillar spamming heals i couldn't heal the damage i was ticking? Most of the time the DPS tunnel my sac target then just swap to me and im down to 50% health. Outside of Wings Hpal healing is not very good at all. Our only means of victory is these big cool downs. we don't have the realiable healing that other classes have, we have cool downs.
yeah against a ton of comps sac is a death sentence to yourself unless your team peels super hard. ive had to bop because a cupid cleave bursted someone i sacced so hard it took me from above 90% to around 15% in like 4 seconds while i was behind a pillar spamming.

Edit: tbh im done tho, i will just have to learn to play without yet another tool and to everyone saying "good". remember this is blizz we are talking about, they are trying to turn this into an mmo with moba complexity, theyre gonna take your stuff too. literally still pruning and lowering yet another healers viability, enjoy your lfg ques i guess.
Agreed. People come to the forums and really want massive massive nerfs to any class they struggle to beat. The cycle will come around and those classes will be getting pruned and destroyed via a critical nerf. Forums don't think critically, they just want the win by any nerfs deemed necessary. It'll come around to the other people who are currently viable, then when their class is utter garbage because of ONE nerf. They'll be back asking for buffs.
11/14/2018 08:12 AMPosted by Zêzima
with our meele wings being a 2 minute cd from one minute, as well as it being 20 seconds long (so easy to CC it and lose its value) VS legions 30 seconds (then nerfed later to 25) HOW DO MONKS STILL HAVE WOTC ON A 1 MINUTE CD AND THEY LITERALLY DO 2X THE DAMAGE OF CURRENT MEELE WINGS. IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE.
Wotc was a 45 sec cd in legion, and if you think yours lasting only 20 seconds is easy to cc, imagine 15 seconds. If you're really going to compare the two, keep in mind that we have to waste an honor talent slot for ours, yours is now a talent that you can take in PvE. Not only that, ours costs us 25% of our fricken mana pool. At best we can pair it with mana tea, which is a 1.5 minute cooldown (which we're pretty much stuck waiting for every time, making it in reality a 1.5 min cd and not a 1 min cd)... and even then that still costs us 12.5% of our mana and a craaaaaazy amount of GCDS to build up.

I'll tell you what they told me when I freaked out over mistwalk being pruned. It'll be fine, you're overreacting, just wait and see, yadda yadda yadda, all that garbage. In reality your class is going to likely suck and they'll probably have to buff it in other ways, which is how mistweavers got the Wotc stun break.
They generally just need to nerf the gimmicks of most healing specs, and increase casted healing throughput. It should feel WAY more rewarding to get a big heal off. If a healer is competently juking and using defensives just at the right time, they shouldn't just get run over by a turbo cleave.
11/14/2018 09:01 AMPosted by Jao
They generally just need to nerf the gimmicks of most healing specs, and increase casted healing throughput. It should feel WAY more rewarding to get a big heal off. If a healer is competently juking and using defensives just at the right time, they shouldn't just get run over by a turbo cleave.


I disagree the gimmicks of each healing class is what makes them all a very different play style right now.

Just want to add, my monk has be the best name in the game.

Rollnaldo. You can take it if you want guys, just know, i was the first.
11/14/2018 08:57 AMPosted by Fox
11/14/2018 08:12 AMPosted by Zêzima
with our meele wings being a 2 minute cd from one minute, as well as it being 20 seconds long (so easy to CC it and lose its value) VS legions 30 seconds (then nerfed later to 25) HOW DO MONKS STILL HAVE WOTC ON A 1 MINUTE CD AND THEY LITERALLY DO 2X THE DAMAGE OF CURRENT MEELE WINGS. IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE.
Wotc was a 45 sec cd in legion, and if you think yours lasting only 20 seconds is easy to cc, imagine 15 seconds. If you're really going to compare the two, keep in mind that we have to waste an honor talent slot for ours, yours is now a talent that you can take in PvE. Not only that, ours costs us 25% of our fricken mana pool. At best we can pair it with mana tea, which is a 1.5 minute cooldown (which we're pretty much stuck waiting for every time, making it in reality a 1.5 min cd and not a 1 min cd)... and even then that still costs us 12.5% of our mana and a craaaaaazy amount of GCDS to build up.

I'll tell you what they told me when I freaked out over mistwalk being pruned. It'll be fine, you're overreacting, just wait and see, yadda yadda yadda, all that garbage. In reality your class is going to likely suck and they'll probably have to buff it in other ways, which is how mistweavers got the Wotc stun break.


i appreciate all you do for the forums but youre post holds very little value. You just made crane out to be a 1.5 min cd bc u cant line it up with mana tea. like what? its a minute cooldown NO MATTER HOW YOU WANNA SUGARCOAT IT. its funny how you say our class will be fine. Im sure you play a hpally at really high rating, right. like i said, id rather not have a MWs feedback on this since two of you now must've literally not read my entire post. i shouldn't have to explain any more, its all there.
11/14/2018 08:38 AMPosted by Dillon
Just remove ultimate sac, keep two sacs, buff healing output. Not sure why no Hpals ask for this, ultimate sac is clearly the issue. Two sacs can still get used for CC breaks and with higher healing output you can keep your team alive if you avoid CC well.


The problem is Blizzard never offsets nerfs with needed buffs or changes. Look at 8.1 Enhance where our 3 PvP talents that carry us are removed and changed with no meaningful changes to other abilities to make the spec play correctly.

So sure you have a great idea here but Blizz just does things half measured all the time. So Hpals will get double sac removed instead of them taking the time to fix the issue correctly. Just like with every other "fix" including stacking azerite traits.
11/14/2018 09:04 AMPosted by Zêzima
i appreciate all you do for the forums but youre post holds very little value. You just made crane out to be a 1.5 min cd bc u cant line it up with mana tea. like what? its a minute cooldown NO MATTER HOW YOU WANNA SUGARCOAT IT.
Sure, if you want to OOM and suddenly lose a match like AMA in legion.

its funny how you say our class will be fine. Im sure you play a hpally at really high rating, right. like i said, id rather not have a MWs feedback on this since two of you now must've literally not ready my entire post. i shoudlnt have to explain any more, its all there.
Played an h pal last expac to 2k within 3 days of playing it. Having 2 charges of sac / bop made it noob friendly AF because I was / am garbage. Granted that was before when the sac damage was reduced by the artifact, but still they are insanely strong cds.

As for the "your class will be fine" thing, you obviously didn't get that I said that as a backhanded joke, and that it will likely destroy your class until they buff it again like what happened to mistweavers. I personally side with Dilly's solution on the matter. You're right though, I didn't read your entire post because it was a big wall of text, and big walls of text are OP.
11/14/2018 09:04 AMPosted by Zêzima
i appreciate all you do for the forums but youre post holds very little value. You just made crane out to be a 1.5 min cd bc u cant line it up with mana tea. like what? its a minute cooldown NO MATTER HOW YOU WANNA SUGARCOAT IT.
Sure, if you want to OOM and suddenly lose a match like AMA in legion.

its funny how you say our class will be fine. Im sure you play a hpally at really high rating, right. like i said, id rather not have a MWs feedback on this since two of you now must've literally not ready my entire post. i shoudlnt have to explain any more, its all there.
Played an h pal last expac to 2k within 3 days of playing it. Having 2 charges of sac / bop made it noob friendly AF because I was / am garbage. Granted that was before when the sac damage was reduced by the artifact, but still they are insanely strong cds.

As for the "your class will be fine" thing, you obviously didn't get that I said that as a backhanded joke, and that it will likely destroy your class until they buff it again like what happened to mistweavers. I personally side with Dilly's solution on the matter.


well now that i get that was sarcasm i dont consider youre post of no value. That comment right there made me be like this guys so oblivious.

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