They shouldn't have killed Varian off so soon

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11/14/2018 03:42 PMPosted by Momimfotm
A point isn't invalidated just because you don't like it.
Actually the point IS VALID, they both suffered at the hands of trash. Varian wasn't lucky to escape like Vol'jin did.

11/14/2018 03:42 PMPosted by Momimfotm
your point is invalid because he can just die again.

I never once made the claim that he couldn't, where the hell you get that from?
Yes it is


Nuh-uh

they both suffered at the hands of trash. Varian wasn't lucky to escape like Vol'jin did.


Their deaths are just not comparable in any meaningful way. Varian got a great, heartfelt sendoff that made me feel sad and awed even as a Horde player. With Vol'jin I just felt frustrated and embarrassed. The only consolation was that Sylvanas was at least portrayed as heroic but it was at Vol'jin's expense. He looked pathetic. The line where he said "they're coming from behind", only to get stabbed from the front, OMEGALUL.

I never once made the claim that he couldn't, where the hell you get that from?


Well you're brushing aside his death like other posters here saying it doesn't matter because he's back as a disembodied spirit who may ascend to something higher. That's really not good enough. Vol'jin shouldn't have to die just so his character can sit out an expansion and get some needed development postmortem. He's not Warchief, he's not in any meaningful position to help or empower the Horde in any way. Have you done his 8.1 questline? It's utterly awful. It's him literally going(SPOILERS)

door to door asking people if they whispered naughty thoughts in his ear to make Sylvanas Warchief as he was dying. I will take a last stand over that any day.
11/14/2018 05:31 PMPosted by Momimfotm
Yes it is


Nuh-uh
Yup
11/14/2018 05:31 PMPosted by Momimfotm
...

Nuh-uh
Yup


No
11/14/2018 05:31 PMPosted by Momimfotm
Yes it is


Nuh-uh
Yup

11/14/2018 05:31 PMPosted by Momimfotm
Their deaths are just not comparable in any meaningful way. Varian got a great, heartfelt sendoff that made me feel sad and awed even as a Horde player. With Vol'jin I just felt frustrated and embarrassed. The only consolation was that Sylvanas was at least portrayed as heroic but it was at Vol'jin's expense. He looked pathetic. The line where he said "they're coming from behind", only to get stabbed from the front, OMEGALUL.

I didn't say they died the same way, I said they suffered the same way. Pay attention to context.

11/14/2018 05:31 PMPosted by Momimfotm
Well you're brushing aside his death like other posters here saying it doesn't matter because he's back as a disembodied spirit who may ascend to something higher. That's really not good enough. Vol'jin shouldn't have to die just so his character can sit out an expansion and get some needed development postmortem. He's not Warchief, he's not in any meaningful position to help or empower the Horde in any way. Have you done his 8.1 questline? It's utterly awful. It's him literally going(SPOILERS)

door to door asking people if they whispered naughty thoughts in his ear to make Sylvanas Warchief as he was dying. I will take a last stand over that any day.
I'm not brushing aside anything, I never once said his death didn't matter. You really should stop projecting, it makes you look dishonest.

Just because I disagree with you on something doesn't mean you can put words in my mouth.

<span class="truncated">...</span>Yup


No
Yup yup.
Nah. He was absolutely a better leader, but that's kind of the whole point. We've already seen him take the lead in a war based expansion (MoP), to the point where he got to make 10,000+ year old war veteran Tyrande look like an idiot when it comes to strategy.

Anduin being in charge may not mean the best outcome for the Alliance, but it's something -different- for the story which is sorely needed with so much else being MoP 2.0 right now. It's also a good way to transition Anduin from the bratty annoying child character everyone hates to a proper adult and authority figure. But that won't happen overnight.
I didn't say they died the same way, I said they suffered the same way. Pay attention to context.


I never said you did though, I just said their deaths aren't comparable because you said:

And he was weakened by trash btw so that point is invalid.


Varian being weakened by trash doesn't invalidate my point considering he soloed a fel reaver and killed a few fel lords before personally being disenchanted by Gul'dan, y'know, the MOST powerful mortal warlock to ever live. The dude who raised the broken isles out of the water? If varian had been one-shot by trash before getting to do anything I would agree, but he didn't, so I won't.

I contest that they suffered similarly considering Varian died rather quickly while Vol'jin was poisoned. Even their suffering isn't comparable. We can debate which one was worse but that's purely subjective.

I'm not brushing aside anything, I never once said his death didn't matter. You really should stop projecting in your arguments, it makes you look dishonest.

Just because I disagree with you on something doesn't mean you can put words in my mouth.


Sorry, I realize I went off on a little tangent that didn't necessarily relate specifically to what you were saying but other replies in this thread. But at the same time, you did trivialize Vol'jin's death in comparison to Varian's because "he's still getting screentime". So because he's back as an ineffectual, powerless force ghost that makes his death OK? C'mon.

Yup yup.


Nah.
11/14/2018 05:58 PMPosted by Momimfotm
I didn't say they died the same way, I said they suffered the same way. Pay attention to context.

I never said you did though, I just said their deaths aren't comparable because you said:

And he was weakened by trash btw so that point is invalid.

Varian being weakened by trash doesn't invalidate my point considering he soloed a fel reaver and killed a few fel lords before personally being disenchanted by Gul'dan, y'know, the MOST powerful mortal warlock to ever live. The dude who raised the broken isles out of the water? If varian had been one-shot by trash before getting to do anything I would agree, but he didn't, so I won't.

I contest that they suffered similarly considering Varian died rather quickly while Vol'jin was poisoned. Even their suffering isn't comparable. We can debate which one was worse but that's purely subjective.
So basically, you quoted me saying the same thing that I'm reiterating to you now about them suffering.

11/14/2018 05:58 PMPosted by Momimfotm
Varian being weakened by trash doesn't invalidate my point considering he soloed a fel reaver and killed a few fel lords before personally being disenchanted by Gul'dan, y'know, the MOST powerful mortal warlock to ever live.
Yes it does, what does him killing a fel reaver and a couple of fiends have to do with him getting stabbed just like Vol'jin? The only difference is Varian took a couple of demons with him whereas Vol'jin only took one.

Kill count =/= Getting stabbed

I contest that they suffered similarly considering Varian died rather quickly while Vol'jin was poisoned. Even their suffering isn't comparable. We can debate which one was worse but that's purely subjective.
So tell me how they didn't suffer the same way? Both of them were stabbed by demons. One was flat out killed by Gul'dan while the other died to DoT is where they died differently.

But at the same time, you did trivialize Vol'jin's death in comparison to Varian's because "he's still getting screentime". So because he's back as an ineffectual, powerless force ghost that makes his death OK? C'mon.
I never once said that his death was okay.
11/14/2018 05:58 PMPosted by Momimfotm
Yup yup.

Nah.
Yup
So basically, you quoted me saying the same thing that I'm reiterating to you now about them suffering.


If you want to get technical, comparing their levels of suffering does also compare their deaths because it ties into how they both died.

Yes it does, what does him killing a fel reaver and a couple of fiends have to do with him getting stabbed just like Vol'jin? The only difference is Varian took a couple of demons with him whereas Vol'jin only took one.

Kill count =/= Getting stabbed


No it doesn't. Varian's suffering and death are lent emotional weight, gravitas, and deep meaning because of what it took to take him down. He went down fighting, in a blaze of glory, defiant until the last second. There is meaning in his death and sacrifice because it allows the Alliance to safely withdraw. Vol'jin barely manages to kill one attacker and dies slumped over in Grommash hold. For those reasons, it doesn't invalidate my point about Vol'jin dying to a trash mob.

I never once said any of that his death was okay.


Not directly, but Vol'jin dying to you is something you can wave away with the excuse of "oh but he's back". That's just wrong. It doesn't make it OK.

God you're frustrating.

Yup


No.
11/14/2018 06:47 PMPosted by Momimfotm
If you want to get technical, comparing their levels of suffering does also compare their deaths because it ties into how they both died.
No it doesn't.

11/14/2018 06:47 PMPosted by Momimfotm
No it doesn't. Varian's suffering and death are lent emotional weight, gravitas, and deep meaning because of what it took to take him down. He went down fighting, in a blaze of glory, defiant until the last second. There is meaning in his death and sacrifice because it allows the Alliance to safely withdraw. Vol'jin barely manages to kill one attacker and dies slumped over in Grommash hold. For those reasons, it doesn't invalidate my point about Vol'jin dying to a trash mob.
Once again.

Kill Count =/= Getting stabbed.

11/14/2018 06:47 PMPosted by Momimfotm
Not directly, but Vol'jin dying to you is something you can wave away with the excuse of "oh but he's back". That's just wrong. It doesn't make it OK.

God you're frustrating.
I sure as hell can say the same for you because of your projection. You got images of me locked into your head saying things you want to hear instead of hearing what is being said to you.

11/14/2018 06:47 PMPosted by Momimfotm
Yup

No.
Yup.
No it doesn't.


Yea it does.

Once again.

Kill Count =/= Getting stabbed.


Dude. You opened this argument yourself by comparing their suffering and how their deaths factored into it. You can't just ignore the events that led up to it. That's just you being deliberately obtuse and dishonest.

I sure as hell can say the same for you because of your projection. You got images of me locked into your head saying things you want to hear instead of hearing what is being said to you.


I do not! I clarified what I meant in my responses but you just chose to ignore literally everything I've said. How can I be expected to argue my point if you just continually keep saying, "I didn't say that" or "I didn't mean that" or "oh you're just projecting". This is impossible. >.>

Yup.


No.
I can break the tie.
Vol'jin died from a fel blade. Vol'jin's soul is still alive.

Varian would have died from a pair of fel blades. The real issue is that his soul has been completely destroyed by fel energies. His soul is dead forever.

So, Vol'jin wins in the end.

P.S. It does not matter if Varian died in the blazes of glory. It only matters if you are still alive at the end, hence Vol'jin is still alive.
11/14/2018 07:10 PMPosted by Momimfotm
Yea it does.
No it doesn't.

11/14/2018 07:10 PMPosted by Momimfotm
Dude. You opened this argument yourself by comparing their suffering and how their deaths factored into it. You can't just ignore the events that led up to it. That's just you being deliberately obtuse and dishonest.
Dude, you're the one who brought up Vol'jin and mentioned his death. Not me. Do you even remember the crap you post?

11/14/2018 08:44 AMPosted by Momimfotm
Oh please. He got an awesome last stand. Vol'jin died to a !@#$ing trash mob.

So if you wanna get technical, you COMPARED his death, not me.

11/14/2018 07:10 PMPosted by Momimfotm
I do not! I clarified what I meant in my responses but you just chose to ignore literally everything I've said. How can I be expected to argue my point if you just continually keep saying, "I didn't say that" or "I didn't mean that" or "oh you're just projecting". This is impossible. >.>
YES you do. I'm not ignoring anything because you keep putting crap I never once said in my mouth.

Stop projecting, then we won't be talking about this.

11/14/2018 07:10 PMPosted by Momimfotm
Yup.

No.
Yup.
When Varian stepped out of the limelight, it allowed for the development of Anduin, Genn, and Velen. All you need to do is look at how Baine is languishing at the sidelines and Nathanos's simpering to understand how a character with plot armor like Sylvanas can suck the life out of all others.
Vol'jin is still alive.


Uh, no, he is very, very, dead. His soul is wandering around in troll limbo. Not the same thing.

As for @shadow

Going back I realize I sort of misread a lot of what you said and interpreted something different to what you were actually saying so I do apologize. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth or create a fallacious strawman, I do quite like you as a poster but I can see we're not going to see eye-to-eye here. I am however, strongly against the notion that Vol'jin is better off compared to Varian because his spirit is still around. But that's subjective and arguing over who got the worse end of the deal and wringing our hands over it serves no purpose.

I maintain that Varian had a great death and send-off and would have preferred Vol'jin getting that(if he absolutely had to die) instead of getting one-shot by a trash mob. Vol'jin's story shouldn't have to require him to die to move it along. I just feel that's wrong.
11/14/2018 08:38 AMPosted by Talestra
He had to die, the horde would go ballistic if he didn't. Be happy knowing that like Vol'jin, he also died to trash. I know I know, some people will say Guldan, but Varian was done. He was stabbed with TWO of those Fel swords, when one of them was enough to kill Vol'Jin.

Guldan however, used Fel finish Varian off, which means his soul was literally consumed by the Fel and destroyed, a fate far worse than Vol'jin. Vol'jin is becoming a higher being. Varian just gets oblivion as his final reward.


Varian didn't die to trash, that was Fel Lord Zakun and his crew.
11/14/2018 08:35 AMPosted by Shadøw
I like Anduin, but I would've preferred seeing Varian lead the charge this expansion. He's a warrior who has war experience and was a gladiator. I felt like he would achieved better results in BfA.

Plus there wasn't enough of seeing him switching from dual wielding to using a greatsword.
I say the samething about Garrosh, but here we are
He had to due to Sylvannas plot armor. If he was still leading alliance he would have ran her through.
11/14/2018 07:54 PMPosted by Momimfotm
Vol'jin is still alive.


Uh, no, he is very, very, dead. His soul is wandering around in troll limbo. Not the same thing.

As for @shadow

Going back I realize I sort of misread a lot of what you said and interpreted something different to what you were actually saying so I do apologize. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth or create a fallacious strawman, I do quite like you as a poster but I can see we're not going to see eye-to-eye here. I am however, strongly against the notion that Vol'jin is better off compared to Varian because his spirit is still around. But that's subjective and arguing over who got the worse end of the deal and wringing our hands over it serves no purpose.

I maintain that Varian had a great death and send-off and would have preferred Vol'jin getting that(if he absolutely had to die) instead of getting one-shot by a trash mob. Vol'jin's story shouldn't have to require him to die to move it along. I just feel that's wrong.
It's fine man, don't worry about it. I really got no issues with you and think you're a cool person. We're both passionate about the game.

But why do you think Vol'jin isn't better off coming 8.1 though? If he was to be a loa and replace a certain Trex who got caught off guard I'd say he's in a good spot.

11/14/2018 07:54 PMPosted by Momimfotm
I maintain that Varian had a great death and send-off and would have preferred Vol'jin getting that(if he absolutely had to die) instead of getting one-shot by a trash mob. Vol'jin's story shouldn't have to require him to die to move it along. I just feel that's wrong.
Yeah, I agree that Varian went out like a boss. My thing with Vol'jin is I felt he was pretty irrelevant during the time when he was warchief. So I just have a "meh" feeling towards him, I hate what happened to the dude though. But depending on what goes on in future content that could change.
But why do you think Vol'jin isn't better off coming 8.1 though? If he was to be a loa and replace a certain Trex who got caught off guard I'd say he's in a good spot.


Thank you <3

Because I don't want him to be a neutral loa who is peripheral to the larger story, I want him back as Warchief. He will fall into the same trap as Alliance leaders who are so powerful they can't be properly used in a faction war without being made into morons(Malfurion, Tyrande, Jaina,etc). Vol'jin was one of the last remaining wc3 characters and among the few Horde leaders who weren't generic warriors/hunters. Also, considering the fact that loa tend to die an awful lot it doesn't really set me at ease. Would blizzard "kill" him again? I doubt it, but I have no confidence in the writing team whatsoever.

Yeah, I agree that Varian went out like a boss. My thing with Vol'jin is I felt he was pretty irrelevant during the time when he was warchief. So I just have a "meh" feeling towards him, I hate what happened to the dude though. But depending on what goes on in future content that could change.


He really was a pretty irrelevant Warchief during his brief tenure so I can understand that feeling. I always liked him because he struck a good balance between characters like Thrall and Sylvanas, he wasn't a warmonger, but he wasn't a passive chump either. He could be reasonable but aggressive. Shadows of the Horde is a really amazing book that greatly endeared me to him. And his overall arc in MOP and Cata were great. The fact that he didn't hate Sylvanas was also refreshing.

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