Marksmanship PTR Changes

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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10/23/2018 12:18 PMPosted by Kajeron
I have a different perspective then most. I think the class is great aside from throughput without steady aim. Steady aim combined with abysmal throughput compound having to use the build.


That's fine, but you're not doing any competitive PvP where the individual spec's toolkit is much more under a magnifying glass. From a pure numbers perspective, MM is only "kind of" the worst spec in PvE, where it's "majorly" the worst spec in arenas. Furthermore, without that wildly overtuned azerite trait's interaction with lethal shots, the spec would be even more dead in PvE. Maybe you like spamming two buttons but I don't think most do.
I dislike spamming 2 buttons a lot. My point is that low throughput overall puts the spec under the magnifying glass even more in a way that it was not during beta.

You are correct about PvP though. I gave up on arena in TBC because hunters were auto lose back then also.
New 28202 build didn't address any feedback we have been talking about last few days.
10/23/2018 04:45 PMPosted by Killshót
New 28202 build didn't address any feedback we have been talking about last few days.
Maybe next week? Hopefully we can some power put back into aimed shot. With the loss of lethal shots giving crits, casting aimed feels so... unrewarding.
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It's unlikely they're going to remove pets outright for MM. There are plenty of people that like playing with a pet (personally, I don't care either way.) What they need to do is make playing with a pet or without both viable options as already stated in the thread. They either need to significantly buff the damage of LW to make the loss of utility worth it, or make the damage from either about the same, while giving you the utility from whichever pet you last dismissed to the hunter should they play with LW.


That's what baffles me about LW currently. Like, we -had- this before? And I thought it worked pretty well??!

I personally prefer using a pet, just because it feels more Huntery to me, and I generally do either outdoor content or farming old raids with her, so I find the pet useful. But I totally get why people want to avoid the hassle of a pet, especially in dungeons and raids. Options are good, having one clearly better than the other isn't good. I just don't understand why it feels like we're going backward in design sometimes.
This may be some "improvements" but this doesn't make the rotation feel any better or more exciting and fun to play. Huge thumbs down if you ask me. Do you guys just not listen to feedback like at all? SMDH
Are you guys kidding with the changes to Lethal Shots!? That was the bread and butter of our damage output and it was the only thing that made our AOE moderately viable. A guaranteed crit on Rapid Fire with Trick Shots made for insanely good burst AOE. Even at that, we are middle of the road on AOE at best. Now we're going to be trash.

But even for single target, fishing for procs still provided the best throughput.

Also, I would only ever cast Rapid Fire when the proc was up. Now without a guaranteed crit, I guess Rapid Fire just won't be in my rotation at all?
10/24/2018 12:52 AMPosted by Roquen
Are you guys kidding with the changes to Lethal Shots!? That was the bread and butter of our damage output and it was the only thing that made our AOE moderately viable. A guaranteed crit on Rapid Fire with Trick Shots made for insanely good burst AOE. Even at that, we are middle of the road on AOE at best. Now we're going to be trash.

But even for single target, fishing for procs still provided the best throughput.

Also, I would only ever cast Rapid Fire when the proc was up. Now without a guaranteed crit, I guess Rapid Fire just won't be in my rotation at all?


Welcome to Blizzard's logic. They really have no idea what they're even doing anymore and it shows more and more every single day. It's pathetic.
I love how most hunter threads devolve into a LW discussion. Talk about looking at the most useless part of the spec and splitting hairs. Our AoE is still bad and you’re bickering about bringing or not bringing a pet.

lol worthy.
10/24/2018 12:52 AMPosted by Roquen
Are you guys kidding with the changes to Lethal Shots!? That was the bread and butter of our damage output and it was the only thing that made our AOE moderately viable. A guaranteed crit on Rapid Fire with Trick Shots made for insanely good burst AOE. Even at that, we are middle of the road on AOE at best. Now we're going to be trash.

But even for single target, fishing for procs still provided the best throughput.

Also, I would only ever cast Rapid Fire when the proc was up. Now without a guaranteed crit, I guess Rapid Fire just won't be in my rotation at all?


Blizzard constantly buffs underperforming specs. If you’re at the bottom of the barrel you will see dmg buffs. Meanwhile you’re advocating a horribly designed build because it does more damage than these changes? Log off and take a walk dude.
So its looking like now we're a spec focused on trying to get as many Rapid Fires out as possible with new azerite trait. The problem is switching one completely Azerite trait reliant build for another. The spec being designed around having certain Azerite and talent combo, or doing completely garbo damage otherwise, is so stupid and will keep the spec niche at best, for those lucky enough to get the correct gear. Not to mention then the spec is just broken again next raid tier/expansion when that specific Azerite trait is phased out and we have to start this whole beg for buffs process all over again.

To top it all off... even with the new ideal build, the damage is lower than Steady Aim Build. Damage on PTR is quite sad. So far MM is getting nerfed in 8.1 lol.

IDK what Blizz is thinking, MM is the only DPS spec still completely reliant on a specific Azerite trait after the tuning, and literally useless without it, and seems like they're doing it all over again in 8.1 just with a different trait, while nerfing MM overall, who are already in the gutter... they need to buff rapid fire baseline, buff Aimed Shot baseline (damage is quite pathetic now without Steady Aim Deadly Shots), get rid of the rapid fire proc fishing mechanics and just shelve the new rapid fire trait, then maybe the spec will work.
There HAVE to be more meaningful control changes than these. Scatter off trap dr. Preferably also a pvp talent for root on bursting shot. The listed changes are a drop in the bucket and don't do anything for actual control. In the world with this many gap closers on melee, these slows will do literally nothing. Please just listen to us. This is common sense. You cannot take 2/3 of the CC away from the squishy control plant and cast hunter spec and still expect it to work. Imagine frost mage with one poly on a 30s cooldown with 0 roots and one blink and ice block. More uptime on 50% slows does exactly nothing to fix the problem.
I'm late to the party and ppl have mentioned much of this but i'll still summarize my thoughts.

These changes look OK, but for PVP specifically they still do not address the largest needs in order to make MM more viable over BM or SV. In fact right now its a negative to do it.

MM spec in general seems like its just not baked for this xpac for pvp. It lacks utility, escapes and damage uptime. Ideally Blizzard wants MM to play Lonewolf. Me personally I don't even think MM should get a pet option, the class should be built and tuned around no pet. But i'll keep my comments to how its currently built.

- Problem 1- The utility issue.
When you go MM vs BM and don't use a pet you literally lose Roar, Freedom and a 10% dmg reduction for anyone near your pet. And you gain what exactly? Whatever marginal difference there is between the pet's dmg and the Lone Wolf 10%? You also gain a dmg reduction any hunter can get with a tenacity pet.... The fact almost no BM or SV plays a tenacity pet should tell you how attractive that choice is.
- So now we've lost roar, freedom and dmg reduction. Where is our utility? I am forced, 100% of the time to take posthaste so I have no option to using binding shot. My scatter breaks in a stiff wind so that on an off target is useless. Bursting shot changes seem OK except Blizzard has given every melee in the game a way to get out of snare so that will also be very low % to lock ppl in.

Problem 2 - the CC
- Scatter still DRs with trap. I am at a loss to understand why this is. Virtually no other 2x CC class has a DR between their setup and CC. Bash+Clone? Anything a rogue does? incap+Stun? DH talent stun into talent intimidation ? Even the other two hunter specs intimidation+trap does not DR (ignore that intimidation is the most bugged CC there is), so why does a MM who has some of the worst utility in the game have a Scatter/Trap Dr? This needs to be fixed.

Problem 3 - Aimed Shot
- As many folks have pointed out Aimed shot takes too long to cast. Its fun in random BGs to sit in the middle of a field and turrent but in Arena its east to LoS a hunter casting Aimed shot. And if we follow my notes above MM has no real way to pursue in and ensure its hitting. BC you only give us 1 escape tied to our only real ability to move over spaces. Whats interesting is SV as a melee has 2 abilities that are ranged, plus a CD that makes a 3 spell ranged to ensure uptime but MM has no real way except this latest Rapid Fire change. Why? Aimed shot needs to be reworked. Lower cast time and on the move at least. Or proc based and instant. Theres nothing wrong with our "casts" being rapid fire and steady.

Problem 4 - lack of playstyle options
- as other ppl have pointed out, talents and PVP talents are weak and force virtually all MM into the same spec(this is true for BM as well). There is simply not enough variety baked into the spec to allow for this.

Suggestions (don't bring issues without ways to solve them)
- Make lonewolf more attractive in PVP. Lonewolf should come with a master's call like freedom in addition to the 20% dmg reduction.
- make posthaste baseline and part of disengage. this is too long coming but this needs to be universal on all hunters. you absolutely force us to take this because of the way melee has been designed over the last 2-3 expansions. Add another utility or ability in its place, this allows MM to have binding shot which would significantly increase it's utility
- change scatter to a stun or something that does not DR with trap. Its not just trap that the DR affects, you lose a lot of hunter friendly comps because of Scatter
- Fix Aimed shot to be shorter cast time castable while moving or instant
- long term goal should be to remove pets at all from MM and balance the class around that, but I know not every hunter agrees with me
- ill throw this out there, how about a 3rd trap for MM that dmg's enemies that stand in it's aura? Similar to Vengeance Shield Eye for an Eye, Thorns, etc. This would help and have the option to toss where healer stands too. Maybe this goes where Posthaste was and you can choose between binding shot or this new trap.

Assuming implemented changes I could now have an MM that has
- baseline rootbreak/escape
- baseline freedom
- extra 20% dmg reduction(would really be cool if it worked like pallys vengeance shield)
- baseline knockback/snare
- short ranged stun
- trap
- quicker dmg that I can always cast on the
- option to take pet for roar and slight lower dps but slightly higher uptime

That's a pretty competent spec
Suggestion: Make LW a passive 20% dmg resistance and a 35% runspeed increase. Boom. Balanced and great.
If these are the only changes that go live the worst spec in the game got worse.
If anyone on the PTR is testing this, is the current PTR build any fun?

Numbers can always be tweaked up or down (mostly down because FMM), but if the playstyle isn't rewarding to play, I can't see myself playing it in 8.1.

One of the things that made MOP SV so rewarding is that you were looking forward to that LNL proc and it felt good to hit that button and hear the boom every. single. time. It was simple and stupid, but it worked: press button, get damage.

Right now, MM doesn't have anything nearly as engaging.
It feels bad for the same reason live feels bad.

No utility terrible 100 talents useless lone wolf precise shots and relying on a single azerite trait.
10/24/2018 07:21 AMPosted by Bertimus
There HAVE to be more meaningful control changes than these. Scatter off trap dr. Preferably also a pvp talent for root on bursting shot. The listed changes are a drop in the bucket and don't do anything for actual control. In the world with this many gap closers on melee, these slows will do literally nothing. Please just listen to us. This is common sense. You cannot take 2/3 of the CC away from the squishy control plant and cast hunter spec and still expect it to work. Imagine frost mage with one poly on a 30s cooldown with 0 roots and one blink and ice block. More uptime on 50% slows does exactly nothing to fix the problem.


I’ve been an advocate of giving MM roots since... they took them away from entrapment/imp wing clip.

I think MM should have explosive trap removed as a PvP talent (even though you can double knock since they seem to be off DR bursting and explosive). Replace explosive trap with a PvP talent adds either a 4 sec root to bursting shot or the first time an enemy enters tar trap for each trap.

Even though I want old school scatter trap for MM, they would need to make scatter pathing larger than trap radius and that seems like too many changes to just facilitate one combo. If they give us entrapment back like I described above we can self set up traps pretty easily and we could get scatter as a cross CC which is really fun. I like scatter as a cross CC tool instead of a linear extension to the healer CC chain.
10/26/2018 05:43 AMPosted by Eddyv
Even though I want old school scatter trap for MM, they would need to make scatter pathing larger than trap radius and that seems like too many changes to just facilitate one combo.


Not sure I follow. Scatter has a larger pathing radius than bursting, and bursting made you stand still when it disoriented. I think they could literally just put scatter on disorient and be done. Not that that is the only option though. They could also add back a version of freezing arrow that replaces freezing trap. And give bursting a root. Or do something completely different. As long as meaningful control mechanics get added, we'll be good. Until that happens, there's really no reason to play marks in arena.
10/17/2018 06:47 PMPosted by Kiwî
10/17/2018 06:31 PMPosted by Shadowmonger
Gratz Hunters

OK BLUE WHY ARE YOU SILENT ON SHADOW PRIESTS!?!


They deleted my reply to this post that asked the same question. So that's a good sign.


And if a hunter came into a thread about shadow priest asking what about hunters , they would delete that persons post

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