Marksmanship PTR Changes

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10/31/2018 01:08 PMPosted by Bertimus
Dang. Really disappointed in today’s ptr build.
Nerf to Trick Shot SMH.
this MM dev :(
10/31/2018 03:05 PMPosted by Shadøw
10/31/2018 01:08 PMPosted by Bertimus
Dang. Really disappointed in today’s ptr build.
Nerf to Trick Shot SMH.
more of a nerf to rapid fire when it is used on less than 6 targets. it will do same damage as live when used on 6 targets.
any ideas on what our stat priority will look like in 8.1 (so far)?
10/31/2018 03:05 PMPosted by Shadøw
10/31/2018 01:08 PMPosted by Bertimus
Dang. Really disappointed in today’s ptr build.
Nerf to Trick Shot SMH.


There’s that. I am more disappointed in everything else though. We have 14 pages of feedback and it seems like we are just done now.

For pvp, they took away 2/3 of our cc, and gave us a one shot out of stealth that we didn’t ask for, and told them not to do because it obviously couldn’t stay in the meta and would have to be nerfed out of viability, leaving us with nothing. We told them that would happen and it did. It happened literally as we said it would in the master thread in beta.

So then..
We asked for our cc back... and they give us another gimmicky burst mechanic akin to a guaranteed greater pyro every 10 seconds, and some useless changes to concussive and bursting that don’t do anything to solve the problem. Just wait until people see sniper shot out of camo and start complaining. They’ll have to then nerf this mechanic leaving us with nothing again.

It’s just kind of exhausting going through this cycle trying to explain this over and over again and seeing the exact wrong decisions made in lieu of that feedback.
Do you even care at this point? Its obvious they dont. How mighty specs has falling its ridicolus. From King of the Mountain in Legion to abbomination this days ... sad.
Stop spouting Blizzard doesn't care.

If Blizzard doesn't care, there would have been zero MM changes on ptr.

Is Blizzard going to make changes that you like 100%? Most likely not. But that's a separate issue.

The amount of entitlement in wow forum is ridiculous.
11/02/2018 06:16 AMPosted by Airese
Stop spouting Blizzard doesn't care.

If Blizzard doesn't care, there would have been zero MM changes on ptr.

Is Blizzard going to make changes that you like 100%? Most likely not. But that's a separate issue.

The amount of entitlement in wow forum is ridiculous.


It's more that they don't care about the playerbase feedback. We are not being entitled by providing feedback and then that feedback being ignored.

The one unanimous change all MM hunters agree on is scatter shot made into a baseline ability and taken off freezing trap DR.

This one change would do so much to restore confidence in the devs, to show that they are actually reading the feedback.

Instead they give us changes that nobody asked for without really solving the issue surrounding MM's reliance on stacking a single azerite trait.

It would be nice if they would simply acknowledge some of the feedback the players are providing. Thats not entitlement, thats just wanting to have a conversation.
It's hilarious to me that it's actually a nerf for PvE compared to live (which already sucks) and has all the same problems (bad aoe, reliant on a trait, lack of utility compared to BM). Steady Aim is the only build that is even usable in raids on live (does literally 3k+ more DPS than any other MM build), and then only viable for ST bosses. That's getting gutted, and the replacement spec for it now requires the rapid fire traits instead. And said replacement spec is a NERF from Steady Aim MM.

So.. in summary we are still reliant on a certain trait (just different ones) for the spec to even function properly, still suck at AoE AND do even less damage than live where MM is already near bottom of logs because of being decent at ST only (and only if you have 2+ Steady Aim traits).

They could fix it with a number tuning but in typical blizz fashion, they make their changes then declare the spec fine and ignore it again, been no further fixing on PTR except for random talent nerfs because of PvP, lol. MM at least had some niche on being good at Ghuun and Taloc, now it will have no niche in 8.1, just be bad overall. So, even worse in raids, still useless in mythic+, but has some meme broken one shot junk going on for PvP that is resulting in talent nerfs and probably more nerfs which will even further cripple PvE. Yikes.
The fact that they force rets, MM and a few other classes into target count cap for AoE is really beyond me. All classes should be able to cleave, small and large group AoE. But their damage numbers need to be tuned so they are not good at all of them.

It’s really not hard to expand trick shots to 2-6 target while multi gets buffed so we still do decent damage at 7+ targets but not top tier for it.

Given how crap MM is at AoE dps in uldir we should be top dog at single target dps. But that’s not the case, my survival hunter can sustain 20k+ dps single target compared to 16-17k as MM with perfect traits and 33% haste.
Marksman are really just boring to play. Even if you are really good at it your parse is base on how many aim shot you can get during the fight. You only get 2 charges so you are just waiting to get it back. If the boss is like 20% you can probably only get a couple aim shot in and that is where your damage will shine, but you are sitting and waiting for a proc or burning aim shot without a proc to just increase dps. The 2% that is left on the boss you be lucky get a cast off because it takes about 2 sec to cast that is where we lose our damage on the meter.
Changes should be:
Aim shot instant or 1 sec cooldown: wouldn't matter anyways because we are waiting for charges to come back so casting is just a waste of time and we can't spam it. We will also have a chance to get more shot in during the last % of the boss.
Arcane shot should be a stack which increases your steady shot damage or haste or increase your aim shot cast so there is some rotation or have a chance to give 1 charge of aim shot back. That way we are not just spamming steady shot all day.

Just some idea to make MM just more fun to play. I ended up switching to survival and i enjoy it a lot. Guild is heavy on melee so I am stuck with MM and really don't want to use BM.
Speaking from alpha and beta phase, Blizzard did listen to and made some changes based on feedback.

Probably Blizz should listen and make more changes but to say that Blizz never or don't care is going to make you look silly.
11/03/2018 09:41 AMPosted by Airese
Speaking from alpha and beta phase, Blizzard did listen to and made some changes based on feedback.
The only changes based on our feedback that I can remember (off the top of my head) was the reduction of Aimed and Steady cast times, and the change from Quick Shot and some bleed (I forget the name) to Arcane and Serpent Sting.

While the first was a consensus demand from all testers, the second was a substantial debate at the time. What we wanted was some of our damage to bypass armor. Instead of just having the bleed dot and Quick Shot bypass armor (which many wanted) or some built in armor pen, they instead went with what was likely the minority (and the easiest fix?) and replaced the cool Quick Shot with Arcane, etc.

We were this |-| close to having a purely physical ranged archer class.

Of course that wouldn't have made everyone happy, but we put lots of ideas out there for talents that would have made it more old SV like. God knows there is room in the tree.

I wouldn't say they listened very well. They completed ignored 1000s of pages of feedback, full of numbers and analysis by a lot of very smart people.

We told them repeatedly exactly how to make the spec fun and balanced, with lots of numerical analysis to back it up. Instead we got what we got.
10/17/2018 07:18 PMPosted by Bertimus
I'm not sure changes to LW are really needed. I personally like it better this way than Legion. You said it yourself, there are use cases for pets, there are use cases for no pet. You don't have to switch talents to use it or not use it. You get a lot of utility with the pet, and you can't afford to sacrifice any of that in PvP. It felt worse having such a high %damage talent that was probably assumed in the tuning of the rest of the kit that you didn't have the ability to use in PvP. In the same sense, it felt just as bad losing all of that base utility in raids/pve because there was never a use case where you did comparable damage with a pet out. Use your pet on fights like taloc or mother. Dismiss pet on fights like zul. You are making a choice as opposed to always using pet or not using pet.

So we shouldn't get the choice to run Lone Wolf in PVP? I really think you're supporting the contrary argument. If the pet brings so much utility in PVP, then Lone Wolf needs extra damage to make it viable in PVP as well as PVE.
11/03/2018 04:18 PMPosted by Yarrow
So we shouldn't get the choice to run Lone Wolf in PVP? I really think you're supporting the contrary argument. If the pet brings so much utility in PVP, then Lone Wolf needs extra damage to make it viable in PVP as well as PVE.

There's like two pages of further discussion past what you quoted.
11/02/2018 06:16 AMPosted by Airese
Stop spouting Blizzard doesn't care.

If Blizzard doesn't care, there would have been zero MM changes on ptr.

Is Blizzard going to make changes that you like 100%? Most likely not. But that's a separate issue.

The amount of entitlement in wow forum is ridiculous.


Honestly I'd prefer they not care than be stupid.

Blizzard manages to both not care and be stupid.

MM sucked blizzard ignored hunters forever they finally made changes they are stupid now it's back to caring.
11/03/2018 12:57 PMPosted by Masoschism
The only changes based on our feedback that I can remember (off the top of my head) was the reduction of Aimed and Steady cast times, and the change from Quick Shot and some bleed (I forget the name) to Arcane and Serpent Sting


They also made some fixes based on my suggestions. They added Rapid Fire to MM's mastery (though they didn't do it the way that I recommended, ie. making it a spender rather than a generator). They made Aimed Shot's CD scale with haste. They gave us one of the pet's active abilities as our Command Pet ability when using Lone Wolf. They added Multi-Shot to Precise Shots. They expanded Rapid Fire's Trick Shots mechanic from 1 extra target to 2, since it required 3 targets to activate anyway. They buffed Master Marksman to 100%, and buffed Careful Aim's proc rate to 50%, and buffed Lethal Shot's proc rate to 25%. They made Lethal Shots apply to your next spell cast, rather than being locked to one of the spells and having a 50/50 shot of getting the Aimed buff or the Rapid Fire buff.

All of those were suggestions or issues I pointed out in the OP of that massive State of Marksmanship thread during beta. They didn't listen to all of the issues, but they definitely paid attention to it at least.
11/03/2018 04:23 AMPosted by Eddyv
The fact that they force rets, MM and a few other classes into target count cap for AoE is really beyond me. All classes should be able to cleave, small and large group AoE. But their damage numbers need to be tuned so they are not good at all of them.


They could accomplish the same thing by just saying aimed shot dmg is reduced by 10% each jump, bottoming out at 25% of normal dmg. It has the same effect as limiting the number of targets hit but feels _so much better_ because the damn thing at least hits all the enemies. It's totally psychological to the degree that buffing aimed shot dmg on a limited number of targets will just always _feel_ worse.

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