Marksmanship PTR Changes

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
Prev 1 14 15 16 19 Next
11/05/2018 09:30 AMPosted by Xaedys
They added Rapid Fire to MM's mastery (though they didn't do it the way that I recommended, ie. making it a spender rather than a generator).


To be fair, the change that they _did_ implement here made the steady build viable and created a scaling issue where they had to actually rework the spec more in 8.1 due to their inability to see the ramifications of this. They would have actually been better off keeping the old mastery and making RF a spender as it would have increased the value of arcane shot over steady as we geared up.

But nope. They are incompetent and now we have these changes as well.

lulzy as !@#$.
11/03/2018 09:41 AMPosted by Airese
Probably Blizz should listen and make more changes but to say that Blizz never or don't care is going to make you look silly.

I’m pretty sure they do care - about making a game that’s fun for them and their spreadsheets.

There’s a difference between what’s fun and what efficient, and old Blizzard seemed to have a good grasp on finding a balance between the two.

But this is the new Blizzard we’re talking about after all: they’re expanding their market to new platforms. First, they made Diablo playable on mobile, and now they’re going to port WOW to MS Excel.
11/05/2018 09:40 AMPosted by Lekai
11/03/2018 04:23 AMPosted by Eddyv
The fact that they force rets, MM and a few other classes into target count cap for AoE is really beyond me. All classes should be able to cleave, small and large group AoE. But their damage numbers need to be tuned so they are not good at all of them.


They could accomplish the same thing by just saying aimed shot dmg is reduced by 10% each jump, bottoming out at 25% of normal dmg. It has the same effect as limiting the number of targets hit but feels _so much better_ because the damn thing at least hits all the enemies. It's totally psychological to the degree that buffing aimed shot dmg on a limited number of targets will just always _feel_ worse.


They could just as easily do what they do for literally every other AoE in the game. For uncapped AoE effects like Blizzard, Rain of Fire, or Eye Beam, the damage dealt has a cap of, iirc, 10 targets (might be 20, but I feel like they reduced it to 10 a few years back). Past that, it deals proportionately less damage to each target such that the total damage done is the same as it would deal against 10 targets. For example, if you cast Blizzard on 25 targets, each target will takes 40% as much damage as normal, because 25 * 0.4 = 10. They could very easily do the same thing with Trick Shots, and even cap it at the damage that would be done to 6 targets (primary + 5 extra, the current cap) if they really wanted to.
11/05/2018 09:46 AMPosted by Lekai
To be fair, the change that they _did_ implement here made the steady build viable and created a scaling issue where they had to actually rework the spec more in 8.1 due to their inability to see the ramifications of this. They would have actually been better off keeping the old mastery and making RF a spender as it would have increased the value of arcane shot over steady as we geared up.


I said as much at the time, actually. Adding generators to the mastery destroyed the balanced between Arcane and Steady. Previously, with a modicum of mastery, Arcane dealt ~70-80% more DPCT than Steady. Now, in 8.0, it's a fixed 33% more (and that includes armor reduction on Steady) regardless of gear level. At least in 8.1, that ratio is being changed due to the buff to Arcane, it'll now be 67% more. But it's still a fixed ratio, which is an issue. Adding generators to the mastery was literally one of the dumbest ways they had available to fix RF's secondary scaling, and it has caused innumerable knock-on issues as a result. The viability of the Steady Focus build is a brilliant example of this.
11/05/2018 12:34 PMPosted by Xaedys
I said as much at the time, actually. Adding generators to the mastery destroyed the balanced between Arcane and Steady. Previously, with a modicum of mastery, Arcane dealt ~70-80% more DPCT than Steady. Now, in 8.0, it's a fixed 33% more (and that includes armor reduction on Steady) regardless of gear level. At least in 8.1, that ratio is being changed due to the buff to Arcane, it'll now be 67% more. But it's still a fixed ratio, which is an issue. Adding generators to the mastery was literally one of the dumbest ways they had available to fix RF's secondary scaling, and it has caused innumerable knock-on issues as a result. The viability of the Steady Focus build is a brilliant example of this.


It's a good point. The changes to Arcane don't really change the value perspective much. You still only want to cast it when you have the buff from aimed shot. I don't know what the solution to the problem with rapid fire + mastery + focus generators is though. I'm with you that it's a conundrum. It was never going to work the old way (with just spenders on mastery) because of scaling. But then mastery became way way way too valuable of a stat, so they had to nerf it, which basically made it the same thing as versatility since it is just a +damage% modifier on everything except autoshot.

I mean really. To it's core, this spec is a hot freaking mess. How is this game 12+ years old and we end up in an expansion like this? How does a design team legitimately not do better than this?
- Bursting Shot has had its knockback range increased, can no longer be dodged, and snares targets for 6 seconds now.


I'll finally be able to push back bosses. Should improve my dps a lot.


- Steady Shot will now increase the duration of Concussive Shot on the target by 3 seconds. This will work on a Concussive Shot from any friendly Hunter, not just your own Concussive Shot.


So great that i wont have to extend CS on bosses. Will improve my DPS a lot.

Rapid Fire has had some usability problems in PvP. Most other channeled spells will continue to deal damage when your target runs behind a pillar and breaks line of sight, but Rapid Fire requires constant line of sight.


Take that bosses wont be able to hide behind pillar anymore.

- Careful Aim is now a guaranteed bonus to Aimed Shot damage against targets above 80% health or below 20% health.


It's nice but wont nearly be enough. Not even close. Totally useless on trash in Mythic+. And outside of a few Mythic+ (like King's Rest +10 and up in Tyranical) it's all about trash.

Trueshot has changed a lot over the years, but it’s currently not a very exciting button, and it could feel much more impactful when you use it. We like that it makes your Aimed Shot cast time reduced, so we’re keeping that, and it now additionally causes your Rapid Fire and Aimed Shot abilities to recharge significantly faster while Trueshot is active. The new version of Trueshot is a significant pacing change for its duration, allowing you to cast multiple Aimed Shots and Rapid Fires during its duration. We’re also lowering its cooldown from 3 minutes to 2 minutes.


This could be good. But only if it greatly reduce AS cd and greatly increase focus gen. If not then it wont help much.

Sadly imo all 3 rogue specs will remain better than MM. More utility. More mobility. Better DPS. Simply better no question asked. Better in pvp. Better in pve. Better in solo. Better in raid. Better in Mythic+. Simply better. All 3 of them.

I think MM right now is the worst spec i played since vanilla. It's that bad and and none of those changes will solve anything (outside of maybe pvp but i don't pvp).

Aimed Shot should be limited by focus not stack. Rapide Fire should be buffed. It should be part of the rotation. If you are not willing to buff Rapid Fire change the ******* name. Rapid Fire used to be one of the best talent in the whole game. Now when i use it i feel like i'm trowing needles on an elephant. It's a travesty to cast this waste of a talent Rapid Fire.
Even the new rapid fire focused builds in 8.2 just don’t make sense. You will be barely ever casting steady shot once you get FF + Surging 2x. Your rapid fires will generate so much focus that you’ll be able to minimize your steady shot usage.

Blizzard just needs to decide wether the core focus of the spec will be RF or Aimed shot. If our core spec is around RF, it should be a spender and it needs interaction with other abilities. The new lethal shots is a crap example of good spell interaction.

I don’t know how they are going to get out of the corner they designed them selves into, least we know they will have an answer by December 11th.
Even the new rapid fire focused builds in 8.2 just don’t make sense. You will be barely ever casting steady shot once you get FF + Surging 2x. Your rapid fires will generate so much focus that you’ll be able to minimize your steady shot usage.

Blizzard just needs to decide wether the core focus of the spec will be RF or Aimed shot. If our core spec is around RF, it should be a spender and it needs interaction with other abilities. The new lethal shots is a crap example of good spell interaction.

I don’t know how they are going to get out of the corner they designed them selves into, least we know they will have an answer by December 11th.


Both should. RF should not generate any focus it should be a hard hitting CD that has priority on everything else. That was the essence of Rapid Fire back in the days before they decide to kill it. It was a very lethal CD specially in non rated PVP with heroic raid gear (the old heroic before mythic was a thing) ;)
11/06/2018 04:50 AMPosted by Eddyv
Even the new rapid fire focused builds in 8.2 just don’t make sense. You will be barely ever casting steady shot once you get FF + Surging 2x. Your rapid fires will generate so much focus that you’ll be able to minimize your steady shot usage.

Blizzard just needs to decide wether the core focus of the spec will be RF or Aimed shot. If our core spec is around RF, it should be a spender and it needs interaction with other abilities. The new lethal shots is a crap example of good spell interaction.

I don’t know how they are going to get out of the corner they designed them selves into, least we know they will have an answer by December 11th.


This, MM has an identity crisis in 8.1 is it based on rapid fire or aimed shot? Being built on both feels bad.

In 8.1 all of our damage is gonna be from rapid fire but a ton of our procs and talents are tied into aimed shot.
The direction isn't clear.

With BM and survival it's crystal clear get as many kill commands (BM) and mongoose/raptor(surv) strikes out as possible everything in those specs lends itself towards those 2 bread and butter abilities.
I miss Chim Shot & Kill Shot the most I think. The basic concept is ok, but if they found a way to weave these back in? You just have like no abilities. Marksman has not felt good in Legion or BfA, it needs to a hard look.

Kill Shot would be fine as a talent, probably. But Chim Shot should be baseline again.
Bringing back abilities won't fix core issues. Is aimed shot our BnB or is RF, blizzard needs to pick one build the spec around that then just turn the other to a generic high damage moderate CD ability with no bells and whistles attached to it or remove it all together and replace it with a situational high damage ability like kill shot.
I am not a theorycrafter but I believe, as a baseline, the intention is to not waste aimed shot charges (don't cap on 2 charges), use rapid fire on cd, arcane shot for precise shot as well as focus dump, and steady shot to generate focus.

The interaction between abilities, traits and/or talents is to make rotation more interesting or less predictable.

Barring any unforseen or unintended playstyle, lethal shot steady shot spam type of playstyle should be dead in 8.1.
Yah, one reason why I didn't line mop/dreanor era marks was that it was predominantly have enough focus to use chimra every 30 seconds. Then do your filler rotation.

I'm personally excited for 8.1. If you don't care about numbers for a day spec into a rapid fire build on live, the rotation is a lot more interesting.
11/06/2018 11:10 AMPosted by Airese
I am not a theorycrafter but I believe, as a baseline, the intention is to not waste aimed shot charges (don't cap on 2 charges), use rapid fire on cd, arcane shot for precise shot as well as focus dump, and steady shot to generate focus.

The interaction between abilities, traits and/or talents is to make rotation more interesting or less predictable.

Barring any unforseen or unintended playstyle, lethal shot steady shot spam type of playstyle should be dead in 8.1.

It will be dead and replaced with rapid fire plus arcane spam (with occasional steady).

11/06/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Kajeron
Yah, one reason why I didn't line mop/dreanor era marks was that it was predominantly have enough focus to use chimra every 30 seconds. Then do your filler rotation.

I'm personally excited for 8.1. If you don't care about numbers for a day spec into a rapid fire build on live, the rotation is a lot more interesting.


There is nothing interesting about doing !@#$ damage. There's also nothing interesting about forcing an azerite trait to do average damage. We will be right back in the position in 8.1.
Fun is a personal truth. Altho for what I was talking about I think I can swap fun for interesting. I know this is cliche but one shotting the boss would not be fun.

My point was that if you ignore steady aim on the current patch the rotation is interesting. Once we get an interesting rotation we will need a massive throughput buff as well. But I think people conflate the steady aim rotation and low throughput together. Fixing either of the problems would be a huge step forward.
It's not though here is something that will happen frequently in 8.1. to show how broken this spec is.

I have surging shots as my trait. And lethal shots specced.

I fire rapid fire . Now I need to fire arcane to reduce the CD on RF. But first I have cast AiS to buff arcane.

So now I can't imdiately fire arcane for burst cause what if surging procs resetting the CD on RF. I don't want to waste lethal shots.

This delay in waiting to see if surging procs feels terrible.
11/06/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Kajeron
Yah, one reason why I didn't line mop/dreanor era marks was that it was predominantly have enough focus to use chimra every 30 seconds. Then do your filler rotation.
That's not how it played at all.

First, Chimera was on a 10s CD. There was also a glyph to reduce that to 9s, but I don't remember if that was there during MoP/WoD or just before. Chimera WAS the rotation. It didn't have a high focus cost or anything, it was just a normal part of our damage. It was also mobile and on demand burst for when we needed it in PvP. It was also excellent follow up burst to Aimed Shot; both landing at the same time (a role that Precise Shots fills now, without all of the other benefits).

You say you didn't like it, but I'm guessing by your comments, you didn't actually PLAY it. It was by far the best iteration of MM this game has produced. The only thing that comes close is WotLK.
@Mofuggaz

You worry about numbers, I get it. Numbers are secondary to me. Numbers are easier to fix compare to rotation playstyle. I do hope that rapid fire and arcane spam is not a thing when 8.1 comes out... But you are very extremely sure you are right. We'll see.

@Masochism

Let us respect other people's preference in playstyle. I am not saying you didn't... But lets go easy on what people like and don't like.
11/06/2018 03:06 PMPosted by Airese
Let us respect other people's preference in playstyle. I am not saying you didn't... But lets go easy on what people like and don't like.

Preference is preference, but when your playstyle screams "I'M DOING IT WRONG" in big bold letters, you don't get to say that the playstyle is no good because you're gonna get called out on it, not because that person had an issue with the player, but because that person has an issue with a claim based on incomplete or bad evidence.

Here's the thing I liked about WOD's MM: the mastery rewarded you for standing still rather than penalized you for moving. I also quite enjoyed MM and SV's relative simplicity: no waiting for damage windows, stacking damage buffs, letting my signature shot empower my focus dump shots or triggering trick shots, or tab-targeting to multi-DOT, y'know?

You just target THAT thing, and shoot it until it's dead: once in a while you'll get free shots, but otherwise, just fill it with bullets...and if you're really good, we'll do some CC, traps, positioning, and kiting. If I wanted complicated, I'd play a warlock or something.
11/06/2018 03:06 PMPosted by Airese
@Masochism

Let us respect other people's preference in playstyle. I am not saying you didn't... But lets go easy on what people like and don't like.
I have no idea what this is in reference to.

If you are commenting on my pointing out an (rather substantial) error, I will never cease such activity when it pertains to my favorite spec. I am fairly certain I was not inappropriately disrespectful.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum