Marksmanship PTR Changes

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11/06/2018 03:06 PMPosted by Airese
@Mofuggaz

You worry about numbers, I get it. Numbers are secondary to me. Numbers are easier to fix compare to rotation playstyle. I do hope that rapid fire and arcane spam is not a thing when 8.1 comes out... But you are very extremely sure you are right. We'll see.

@Masochism

Let us respect other people's preference in playstyle. I am not saying you didn't... But lets go easy on what people like and don't like.


What I just posted has nothing to do with numbers. Having to wait to cast arcane just in case aimed procs surging shots fells completey broken.

Nothing on the PTR feels remotely good and nothing about it is interesting.
11/06/2018 01:45 PMPosted by Masoschism
11/06/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Kajeron
Yah, one reason why I didn't line mop/dreanor era marks was that it was predominantly have enough focus to use chimra every 30 seconds. Then do your filler rotation.
That's not how it played at all.

First, Chimera was on a 10s CD. There was also a glyph to reduce that to 9s, but I don't remember if that was there during MoP/WoD or just before. Chimera WAS the rotation. It didn't have a high focus cost or anything, it was just a normal part of our damage. It was also mobile and on demand burst for when we needed it in PvP. It was also excellent follow up burst to Aimed Shot; both landing at the same time (a role that Precise Shots fills now, without all of the other benefits).

You say you didn't like it, but I'm guessing by your comments, you didn't actually PLAY it. It was by far the best iteration of MM this game has produced. The only thing that comes close is WotLK.


It was during MoP. The glyph originally healed you for 2% of your max health. In MoP they changed it to knock a second off chim shot. Which made the rotation really feel smoother and was a nice buff.

Considering how good Chim shot was back then, no hunter worth their arrows were waiting 30 seconds to cast it. So I have no clue what that person is talking about. The rotation completely revolved around it. I mean, it was a 9 second rotation. Because that's how long you had until chim shot and you're goal was to get off as many shots as you could in those 9 seconds. And there were wonderful haste plateaus you hit that changed what you could fit in those 9 seconds.

MM was a heck of a lot of fun to play back then.
Pre WoD MM rotation was rewarding but way too simple in pve. But in pvp there was so much interaction with different stings causing chim to do different effects (Woltk disarm).

WoD and beyond MM is much more complex and rewarding in PvE but not in PvP.

Also please don’t use lethal shots on PTR in its current state it gives about 1 more rapid fire per minute compared to double tap which doubles RFs damage. Double tap means you don’t have to cast an extra RF to get the same benefit as lethal shots.
Which makes the current idiocy surrounding MM’s design all the more baffling: the devs have over a decade’s worth of talent and ability options to choose from, both from MM and ranged SV, and they keep trying these new clunky systems that feel bad rather than going for something tried-and-true.

I’m not saying innovation is bad, but they just overhauled the MM-esque specs three times in the last two years, and we still haven’t gotten an explanation why the old SV had to go, not have we gotten a satisfactory replacement.
11/06/2018 01:45 PMPosted by Masoschism
11/06/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Kajeron
Yah, one reason why I didn't line mop/dreanor era marks was that it was predominantly have enough focus to use chimra every 30 seconds. Then do your filler rotation.
That's not how it played at all.

First, Chimera was on a 10s CD. There was also a glyph to reduce that to 9s, but I don't remember if that was there during MoP/WoD or just before. Chimera WAS the rotation. It didn't have a high focus cost or anything, it was just a normal part of our damage. It was also mobile and on demand burst for when we needed it in PvP. It was also excellent follow up burst to Aimed Shot; both landing at the same time (a role that Precise Shots fills now, without all of the other benefits).

You say you didn't like it, but I'm guessing by your comments, you didn't actually PLAY it. It was by far the best iteration of MM this game has produced. The only thing that comes close is WotLK.

I'm sorry, after fact checking myself I conflated mop with dreanor. Iirc in dreanor chim was a 15 sec cd and barrage was 30. That is the playstyle I did not like.

I also may still be salty about exotic munitions. The talent I always wanted bit had horrible throughput and went away.
Going to do some extensive testing on Friday, but after seeing no update notes this week, I'm beginning to get a bit nervous.

Trueshot needs a slight adjustment to make it "flow" better. IMHO, it should still grant haste as a stat alongside the cdr because of how hard gcd capped it is when up. Trying to best utilize all of the precise shots while keeping rapid fire on cd and aimed shot from reaching two charges is... awkward to say the least.
11/07/2018 07:52 AMPosted by Kajeron
after fact checking myself I conflated mop with dreanor. Iirc in dreanor chim was a 15 sec cd and barrage was 30. That is the playstyle I did not like.
Please fact check better. Chimera was exactly as I said in both MoP and WoD*: i.e. 10 second CD on Chimera, 9 seconds with a glyph. Barrage was optional and I never took it. So maybe you didn't like Barrage. Well, I didn't either, so there ya go. If ya didn't like it, you didn't have to take it. It wasn't even the best talent. Again, I am guessing you didn't play MM in either expansion.

* MoP and WoD were nearly identical. The difference between them that I remember were:

-- Loss of Scare Beast and Scatter Shot
-- Baseline movement during Aimed Shot in WoD (instead of requiring a glyph in MoP)
-- A change in the Mastery.
11/07/2018 07:31 AMPosted by Kabbie
Which makes the current idiocy surrounding MM’s design all the more baffling: the devs have over a decade’s worth of talent and ability options to choose from, both from MM and ranged SV, and they keep trying these new clunky systems that feel bad rather than going for something tried-and-true.

I’m not saying innovation is bad, but they just overhauled the MM-esque specs three times in the last two years, and we still haven’t gotten an explanation why the old SV had to go, not have we gotten a satisfactory replacement.


A lot of specs feel like "change for the sake of change" rather than change to make things better. Enhancement shaman feels like that too. I miss walking up to a mob and just hitting storm strike. Now you can't do that because you have to spend the first 5 seconds casting set up/resource generating attacks that were once just buffs similar to rogue poisons. It just plays like a ghetto warrior, without even having something like charge to start a fight with a boost of resources. It didn't improve what was fun about enhancement. It just took what people liked about warrior and tried to shove it into the spec to try and make it "new and interesting". When imo it's not, it just feels like watered down warrior with enhancement animations. And we have Survival which is probably the biggest "change for the sake of change". That was a really fun spec and simply removed so they could add something different without making a new class. (Even though it's not really that new considering UH dk has been melee with a pet since Wrath)

But you take a spec like frost or fire mage. Those specs have evolved over the years, you can see how the small changes here and there shaped them. The core of what's fun is still there, it just gets tweak. The specs still feel familiar even with the changes they've gone through. In cases like these, it feels like the changes were meant to help make gameplay feel fresh without hitting the reset button to give you something that doesn't even feel familiar.
11/07/2018 07:52 AMPosted by Kajeron
I'm sorry, after fact checking myself I conflated mop with dreanor. Iirc in dreanor chim was a 15 sec cd and barrage was 30. That is the playstyle I did not like.


It wasn't changed to 15 seconds from 9 in 7.2.5 in Legion. Dreanor I believe was when they made it boring, hit 2 targets and no longer referesh stings or having different procs based on what sting was on the target.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Chimaera_Shot

*edited out rudeness. I apologize I had misread your comment.
Wow no need to be extremely rude...

I went out on a limb and admitted I was wrong. I play more now then I did back then. If you're quickly going to resort to personal attacks against someone in the community then no wonder the devs keep us at an arms length.
11/07/2018 09:34 AMPosted by Kajeron
Wow no need to be extremely rude...

I went out on a limb and admitted I was wrong. I play more now then I did back then. If you're quickly going to resort to personal attacks against someone in the community then no wonder the devs keep us at an arms length.
If it's any consolation, I would like to say I respect that you for admitting your mistakes. Pobody's nerfect.
11/07/2018 09:34 AMPosted by Kajeron
I went out on a limb and admitted I was wrong. I play more now then I did back then.
You did, and then you made another mistake (the SAME mistake really). I corrected that mistake a second time with the same information I gave the first time. This suggested to me you didn't read what I wrote the first time. It also suggested to me your "fact checking" wasn't fact checking at all, since your "admittance of mistake" had the same errors.

I did not attack you personally. There was no character defamation in my response. I merely pointed out that you were incorrect, and I specified the errors in your statement.

Why does it matter to me? Because it is important to me that neither you nor anyone else spread false information when we are attempting to fix what is obviously broken. I use examples from the past to show what I think was good. When you (or others) come in and say "I didn't like it because of x, y and z" and yet your statements of x, y, AND z are all completely false information, I am going to point out that x, y, and z are false.

That is all I did. I will continue to do so if you or anyone else creates false facts on this topic. That's not personal, its simply error correction. It happens to everyone, myself included.
Correct my errors fine. However I did read your post. I did play marks back then. I don't have enough time to thoroughly research the time back then however I still remember the feeling of the spec and not liking it. At least you didn't insult my current performance.

Just came across of looking at the surface of what I typed and jumping to this guy is wrong. Then jumping to he is wrong his thoughts are invalid, I will tell him then brush him aside.
At the risk of beating a dead horsey...
11/07/2018 01:30 PMPosted by Kajeron
I still remember the feeling of the spec and not liking it.
I completely respect your feelings. Your feelings were never a part of my discussion.

11/07/2018 01:30 PMPosted by Kajeron
At least you didn't insult my current performance.
Why in my special place of the ninth hell would I do that? Such activities are only a gateway to ad hominem attacks. I'm not a fan. If you resort to such things it usually means your argument is weak.

11/07/2018 01:30 PMPosted by Kajeron
Just came across of looking at the surface of what I typed and jumping to this guy is wrong.
That is pure speculation on your part. I'm not much of a "jump to conclusions" kind of person.

11/07/2018 01:30 PMPosted by Kajeron
Then jumping to he is wrong his thoughts are invalid
I get that your feelings are that you didn't like the way MoP/WoD MM played. You (sorta) quantified those feelings with false facts. You then qualified your feelings on "how MM played" based on those false facts. Your conclusions ARE invalid, because your premise was so completely incorrect. The way you stated MM played was simply not the way it played at all. That doesn't mean a general feeling of dislike is invalid. Your feelings CAN'T be invalid. But your stated reasons are because that's just how logic works.

I dismiss your reasons because and only because they are unqualified (AKA categorically false). I do not dismiss your feelings. They are quite separate entities.

Quite to the contrary of dismissing your feelings, I respect your feelings. If you made statements that showed you played it sufficiently to understand how the spec played, and then stated why you didn't like it because of how it actually played, we would be having a very different conversation. More than likely we would be in agreement on many points. WoD/MoP was not what I would consider "perfect".

It was just a million miles closer than Legion or BfA.
10/17/2018 05:53 PMPosted by Killshót
Cool, but Aimed Shot takes ages to cast outside of new Trueshot. Please fix it by either reducing cast time or making it castable on the move (I personally prefer second option). Also i'm not sure why CD and charges on Aimed Shot is a thing, get rid of them.

And our AOE/cleave is so bad and convoluted which sucks. Trick shot needs to be fixed, make it trigger from less targets and remove target cap.


No it doesn't, you just have bad gear.
They managed to make MM worse... while still being 100% reliant on a specific azerite trait. Amazing..
Don’t make this about you.

-

I can respect a build that showcases and supports a single move - that was the core of SV, after all - but BFA MM is still not fun to play. In their own ways, Aimed Shot and Rapid Fire both break the flow of the MM’s rotation, and it’s frustrating to watch the devs not understand this.

Or maybe I’m just plain fed up with the game: I’ve mained a hunter for more than a decade, and it continues to break my brain why Blizzard decided pull a Cecilia Giménez (google it if you don’t know) and “fix” something that wasn’t broken.

Eight ears of incremental changes and players getting comfortable with their solid (if a bit boring) builds. Now we’ve gone through two extreme changes to MM (let’s not even discuss ranged SV RIP), and I’ve felt like a complete newbie who had to relearn everything twice in as many years. It’s jarring, it’s unfamiliar, it’s a little painful to ask yourself how Blizzard is going to screw it up this time.

Maybe that’s just me. I don’t know if other players fee like that.
Scatter on disorient. Please. We have to have some realistic way of setting up in arena and this would be incredibly easy to pull off development wise. It is SO important and if you look at nothing else in pvp, please just consider this one change. It can be make or break.
MM would feel a lot more complete if it’s utility toolkit for PvE didn’t lack:

1. A single target stun like BM and SV get
2. Utility choices when the player forgoes a pet (we lose the ability to use Master’s Call or Bloodlust). With Lone Wolf, we should get to choose between the three specced abilities from the pet families.
3. Tranq Shot - the only other enrage dispel class is Druid. We need something like this back to allow us to do something unique for our group even if we lose the magic dispel portion.
11/08/2018 08:09 AMPosted by Kabbie
Don’t make this about you.

-

I can respect a build that showcases and supports a single move - that was the core of SV, after all - but BFA MM is still not fun to play. In their own ways, Aimed Shot and Rapid Fire both break the flow of the MM’s rotation, and it’s frustrating to watch the devs not understand this.

Or maybe I’m just plain fed up with the game: I’ve mained a hunter for more than a decade, and it continues to break my brain why Blizzard decided pull a Cecilia Giménez (google it if you don’t know) and “fix” something that wasn’t broken.

Eight ears of incremental changes and players getting comfortable with their solid (if a bit boring) builds. Now we’ve gone through two extreme changes to MM (let’s not even discuss ranged SV RIP), and I’ve felt like a complete newbie who had to relearn everything twice in as many years. It’s jarring, it’s unfamiliar, it’s a little painful to ask yourself how Blizzard is going to screw it up this time.

Maybe that’s just me. I don’t know if other players fee like that.


nope also tired of this class now. 2 specs with 2 reworks 2 xpacs in a row and neither are as fun as before. my sub runs out in a week.

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