Marksmanship PTR Changes

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bunch of stuff

Aimed Shot is reduced by armor. Boss armor has a multiplier of 0.7, about the same as mail. That reduces Aimed shot to 144 (relative damage) vs. two arcanes of 120. Reducing that by 20% puts that at 114 < 120.

Of course its not the same against cloth, and its WAY worse against plate, but Boss armor is the most relevant, in the middle, and is what Blizz uses to balance, so it is best gauged by that.

Of course that doesn't take into account Precise Shots, which is really just Aimed Shot damage in disguise, but if you cast Precise Shots even more (because it is by far our highest DPF and DPCT ability), there will be ZERO talents that we can take that cost focus or a global that won't be a DPS loss, thus breaking the spec even more.

11/12/2018 08:56 PMPosted by Contesta
Outside of the current cheese build that they are nerfing, movement is far less now then it ever was in legion, WoD or MoP.
How can you justify this? The math is quite simple. You have to stand still 5 seconds out of every 24 with the current version. In Legion you had to stand still about half the time.

I do agree however that it is less than both WoD and MoP much to my sadness (since those specs were 100% mobile) as those were the best MM has been.
11/12/2018 09:07 PMPosted by Masoschism
bunch of stuff

Aimed Shot is reduced by armor. Boss armor has a multiplier of 0.7, about the same as mail. That reduces Aimed shot to 144 (relative damage) vs. two arcanes of 120. Reducing that by 20% puts that at 114 < 120.

Of course its not the same against cloth, and its WAY worse against plate, but Boss armor is the most relevant and in the middle so it is best gauged by that.

Of course that doesn't take into account Precise Shots, which is really just Aimed Shot damage in disguise, but if you cast Precise Shots even more (because it is by far our highest DPF and DPCT ability), there will be ZERO talents that we can take that cost focus or a global that won't be a DPS loss, thus breaking the spec even more.

11/12/2018 08:56 PMPosted by Contesta
Outside of the current cheese build that they are nerfing, movement is far less now then it ever was in legion, WoD or MoP.
How can you justify this? The math is quite simple. You have to stand still 5 seconds out of every 24 with the current version. In Legion you had to stand still about half the time.

I do agree however that it was less than both WoD and MoP much to my sadness (since those specs were 100% mobile) as those were the best MM has been.

Because the windows in which I need to move is less in earlier builds. There is a difference of total open window movements, and decision open window movement. If I need to move every second of a raid boss encounter, you may have a point, but I don't. The fact that, outside of the cheese, I have to stand 0.5 seconds base longer per cast, and more if we take into consideration haste, I have more decision % time I have to wait till I have to move. In legion, if I had to dodge a mechanic in 2 seconds, I could cast an aim shot, disengage cast another one. In the current build I would have to eat it, or cancel my shot.

Edit: And even with constant moving, it would easier to fill in the movement gaps with mark shots, MM players did far better with legion build against mythic dogs then pre-patch bfa build.
11/12/2018 09:17 PMPosted by Contesta
In legion, if I had to dodge a mechanic in 2 seconds, I could cast an aim shot, disengage cast another one. In the current build I would have to eat it, or cancel my shot.
So, I really only do PvP (on my hunter). Total time I need to stand still to be effective is by far the most important thing to me. I'm not saying that extra 0.5 seconds might not play a part in DPS loss in a raid, but I know it ain't often (I do it all the time on my mage). It CAN'T be often because you can choose your cast windows due to the 2 charges (that's why they exist). Again, its two times out of every 24 seconds. You know when there will be a mechanic you have to move from and with the charges you can time your Aimed Shot accordingly. Its really not that hard.

Regardless, I would rather it would be castable while moving, but for certain your proposal would cause ME (and anyone who does PvP) more problems than it solves in the exact same vein as Legion did.
11/12/2018 09:17 PMPosted by Contesta
In legion, if I had to dodge a mechanic in 2 seconds, I could cast an aim shot, disengage cast another one. In the current build I would have to eat it, or cancel my shot.
So, I really only do PvP (on my hunter). Total time I need to stand still to be effective is by far the most important thing to me. I'm not saying that extra 0.5 seconds might not play a part in DPS loss, but I know it ain't often (I do it all the time on my mage). It CAN'T be often because you can choose your cast windows due to the 2 charges (that's why they exist). Again, its two times out of every 24 seconds. You know when there will be a mechanic you have to move from and with the charges you can time your Aimed Shot accordingly. Its really not that hard.

Regardless, I would rather it would be castable while moving, but for certain your proposal would cause ME (and anyone who does PvP) more problems than it solves in the exact same vein as Legion did.


Sure, it's not hard when you can layout all the mechanics and everyone plays the fight neatly, throw a cog of other player, randomized raid mechanics, into the fight and now you messed the whole rotation up. For this tier, you're looking at Zul and Vectis, kind of.

Oh, now I understand everything, you are a marksman that still holds out for it being viable in pvp again, that ship sailed a while ago. It's one of the reasons I stopped casually pvping on top of this games pvping being !@#$.

If you really care, why aren't you asking for exotic ammunition back? It would play well into rapid fire.
11/12/2018 09:39 PMPosted by Contesta
Oh, now I understand everything, you are a marksman that still holds out for it being viable in pvp again
It sailed in Legion alpha (though I didn't know it yet cause I was enjoying the crap out of WoD MM).

It could come back. The core of this version is perfectly fine. Its just all the crap on top of it thats broken, and they aren't doing the right things to fix it. There are many possible "fixes", but your proposal would be a definitive step backwards from everything that made MM great in the past, in the exact same way that Legion ruined it (half of the reason anyways).
11/12/2018 09:07 PMPosted by Masoschism
bunch of stuff

Aimed Shot is reduced by armor. Boss armor has a multiplier of 0.7, about the same as mail. That reduces Aimed shot to 144 (relative damage) vs. two arcanes of 120. Reducing that by 20% puts that at 114 < 120.

Of course its not the same against cloth, and its WAY worse against plate, but Boss armor is the most relevant, in the middle, and is what Blizz uses to balance, so it is best gauged by that.

Of course that doesn't take into account Precise Shots, which is really just Aimed Shot damage in disguise, but if you cast Precise Shots even more (because it is by far our highest DPF and DPCT ability), there will be ZERO talents that we can take that cost focus or a global that won't be a DPS loss, thus breaking the spec even more.

11/12/2018 08:56 PMPosted by Contesta
Outside of the current cheese build that they are nerfing, movement is far less now then it ever was in legion, WoD or MoP.
How can you justify this? The math is quite simple. You have to stand still 5 seconds out of every 24 with the current version. In Legion you had to stand still about half the time.

I do agree however that it is less than both WoD and MoP much to my sadness (since those specs were 100% mobile) as those were the best MM has been.

I just notice this while rereading the conversation.

Your math doesn't add up it's 145>120 now, or 131>120 at 20%. Also, you aren't taking into account gcd 2 arcane take 3 seconds of cast time, you don't exclude the cast after the second arcane is out the gcd effects the next ability cast, so that is 2 arcane @ 120 for 3 seconds vs 1 aim shot at 2 seconds at 131.

To make it simpler, lets take it to the cast closes divisibility: 6 seconds.
In 6 seconds you can cast 4 arcane shots for 240 and 3 aim shots 393 which is significantly more dps. The only thing that shifts this is when you get precise procs which in the new build hits for 75% (was 100%) which would make 1proc 2 set hit for 165 and 2 proc hit for 210 instead of 120.

If we leave it as it is there would be no point in casting arcane shot even with procs because it would be a dps loss.

To your last comment, the base model isn't geared for pvp in any shape or form. MM lacks good pvp oriented ccs, survivability, consistent points of burst damage, it's nothing like the pvp build of MoP or WoD and you know it. Just come out and say it, you want WoD MM back. But if you get it back, you will soon find out that the meta and build of other classes for pvp even shreks that of old MM.

Edit: okay, you are taking the total I meant knock down the modifier from 207% to 187%. If you go back to what I quoted in that reply I specifically pointed this out.

Aim Shot: A powerful aimed shot that deals [(187% (currently in ptr 207%) of Attack power) * ((max(0, min(Level - 10, 10)) * 8 + 130) / 210)] Physical damage
Friendly reminder that scatter is still on the same DR as trap for some reason.

10/17/2018 05:38 PMPosted by Nimox
One goal of ours for Marksmanship is proficiency in keeping targets at range in PvE and PvP situations. Marksmanship plays best when you have distance from your target, so we’re emphasizing some of the tools that help you either move a target away from you, or keep your distance.


If this is your stated intent, you really need to take a look at how you're forcing MM hunters to set up CC with the current model. To land a full selftrap as MM, your only option is to slow and chase, and fake grounding/port/death, etc. to pull of a trap from MELEE range, where there is no travel time for your trap. You do not have mage-level mobility, so when you do this, you're sacrificing all of your mobility to pull a trap off, and putting yourself in a terrible spot with no out left to get away from the other team. Scatter as a mid-range setup is the perfect solution to the problem now. All of the 50% slows in the world are going to do nothing so long as there is no setup. It was there for multiple expansions before WoD. Absolutely no reason to not bring it back now.
11/13/2018 04:03 AMPosted by Contesta
Your math doesn't add up it's 145>120 now, or 131>120 at 20%.
I'm not sure how you can multiply 145 by 1 - 0.2 (a 20% reduction) and get 131. It is 116 (sorry, not sure where the 114 came from, probably a mistype).

11/13/2018 04:03 AMPosted by Contesta
Also, you aren't taking into account gcd 2 arcane take 3 seconds of cast time, you don't exclude the cast after the second arcane is out the gcd effects the next ability cast, so that is 2 arcane @ 120 for 3 seconds vs 1 aim shot at 2 seconds at 131

I wasn't discussing the cast time. I also wasn't discussing YOUR cast time (though I should have been). The REAL cast time is the cast time plus the amount of time it takes to recover the focus. That is:

1.75*3 + 2.5 (or 2.0 in your case) for AiS = 7.75 (7.25)
1.75*3 + 3.0 for Arcane = 8.25

The damage per cast time is higher in both cases for Aimed, but lower in damage per focus. This does come out ahead for Aimed Shot vs. 2 Arcanes:

- 5% more at 2.5s
- 12% more at 2.0s

That is only BARELY better than 2 arcanes. With just one Arcane Flurry trait (which is MUCH easier to apply than Steady Aim) that drops to a 2% loss for your version of Aimed Shot after all is said and done.

It just doesn't work out with the math.

Of course if you are still keeping the current version of Precise Shots... That would COMPLETELY break the spec, because all of your focus and globals would go into casting Precise Shots. Precise Shots DPF and DPCT is so high, it overwrites EVERYTHING, and is thus the highest priority. That means you will sacrifice all talents that cost focus (this is already a problem, and the main reason the spec is broken in the talents), you will even sacrifice Aimed Shots. You might even sacrifice Rapid Fire depending on traits.

The math of your version just doesn't work out. It becomes even worse with Precise Shots. It would destroy the mobility, and would make the Precise Shots problem even worse than it is.
11/13/2018 04:03 AMPosted by Contesta
Edit: okay, you are taking the total I meant knock down the modifier from 207% to 187%. If you go back to what I quoted in that reply I specifically pointed this out.
I am not getting this...

Oh, you mean 20% of AP drop from 207% to 187%. Sorry, that is TERRIBLY confusing as it is not the way anyone speaks when talking about a 20% reduction.

Regardless, at best it is just a smidge higher than 2 Arcanes. This becomes overwritten by adding Arcane Flurry. With your version with infinite Precise Shots the only talent that anyone will take in the first tier is Master Marksman, and the only trait anyone will take is Arcane Flurry (for all those Precise Shots). It would completely break the spec (worse than it already is).

And you would have to stand still half the time...
New changes on ptr.

https://www.wowhead.com/news=288624/patch-8-1-ptr-build-28440-class-changes-enhancement-shaman
Just saw a summary of PTR build 28440 and I got a very single question:
Why aren't MM hunters allowed to hit 2 targets with trick shot ? If I'm not mistaken we are the only spec that can only "cleave" targets with at least 3 targets and again, most raid content have 2 targets situations.
Is it just too much to ask for this adjustment ?
11/13/2018 04:33 PMPosted by Zendak
Just saw a summary of PTR build 28440 and I got a very single question:
Why aren't MM hunters allowed to hit 2 targets with trick shot ? If I'm not mistaken we are the only spec that can only "cleave" targets with at least 3 targets and again, most raid content have 2 targets situations.
Is it just too much to ask for this adjustment ?
This. Also Serpent Sting spreading with trick shots would be a nice change, increase Crows damage and/or lower the cooldown to 30 seconds to make it better for single target and let Serpent Sting be our aoe DoT.
PTR changes, so it's here for reference.

~20% damage buff to Aimed Shot (19.8%, 248% AP from 207%)
Piercing Shot now ignores armor (functional ~43% damage buff against bosses)
10% damage buff to Serpent Sting
25% damage buff to Trick Shots cleave (40% -> 50%)

The buff to Trick Shots will improve our meters some, but doesn't address any of the feel problems many people have brought up in this thread. Huge damage increase to Aimed, which feels required post Lethal change. Also, it will help keep Rapid Fire centered builds from pushing it out completely. Piercing Shot gets a (functional) huge damage buff, though I don't know if it's worth taking over LnL yet, especially with the Trick Shots buff. Can you math this one for us, Masochism? Serpent Sting gets tapped up a tad, might be worth taking over Crows or Master Marksman in a few circumstances if Precise Shots consumption didn't dominate focus use so much. As is, not sure.
Piercing shot and explosive shot changes are pmuch exactly what I asked for. Just need a setup in pvp now. Scatter to disorient.
11/13/2018 05:37 PMPosted by Kalro
~20% damage buff to Aimed Shot (19.8%, 248% AP from 207%)
Piercing Shot now ignores armor (functional ~43% damage buff against bosses)
10% damage buff to Serpent Sting
25% damage buff to Trick Shots cleave (40% -> 50%)

According to my model with these changes on single target;

-- Piercing Shot increases damage by 1.8%
-- LnL increases damage by 5.5%

Anything that increases Aimed Shot (Careful Aim, Steady Aim e.g.) also increases LnL's contribution to damage. Nothing adds to Piercing Shot, so that has no additional modifiers. ==> LnL is still far superior for sustained ST damage (and AoE as well unless the target count is very high and you can hit them all with Piercing Shot).

Piercing Shot's problem is primarily its focus cost and of course its negative effect on Precise Shots. Precise Shots clipping kills Piercing Shot out the gate. If you take any other focus costing talent and Piercing Shot it will be a DPS loss.

Serpent Sting interacts with haste well. It still suffers from Precise Shots clipping, but at higher haste levels it suffers less.

The new Serpent Sting has approximately the following effect on damage based on haste:

0% haste: 4.2% DPM increase
10% haste: 5.0% DPM increase
20% haste: 5.7% DPM increase

This is largely because while Serpent Sting is affected by haste, you only have to cast it 5 times per minute (it gives a final tick at the end depending on how much time elapsed since the last tick). That has an effect on what you can do with your focus, and also decreases Precise Shot clipping. Overall this makes Serpent Sting not bad. If Precise Shots was reduced to JUST ONE PER AIMED SHOT (or removed entirely) Serpent Sting would be quite good.

The change to Surging Shots still doesn't remove the fact that it breaks Double Tap. That will likely be nerfed at some point. Hopefully they make the appropriate change to Surging Shots and don't nerf Double Tap because of a broken trait. Who knows though, they already did it to Streamline...
They fixed the new sniper shot on the ptr. Idk if intended or not, but it does not appear to be able to crit. All I’ve been able to test on is the pvp dummy, but with all rapid fire traits, explosive and aimed shots are both 20/40k hit/crit. Sniper seems to be a consistent 40k hit.

If you explosive-aimed-arcane it all hits at the same time, which makes a nice burst, and you can preempt with sniper and follow up with rapid fire which hits really hard with rapid fire traits.

I will put it this way. If these changes make mm good in pvp, it will be good for the wrong reasons. This has the makings for prepatch all over again because you can accomplish all of this out of stealth. If/when it all has to be nerfed, we are back at square one because the core issue was not solved. We still have no reliable setup mechanics because of scatter dr and the removal of bursting disorient.
11/13/2018 09:38 PMPosted by Bertimus
They fixed the new sniper shot on the ptr. Idk if intended or not, but it does not appear to be able to crit
No % of health abilities crit. That would be pretty ridiculous if they did.

11/13/2018 09:38 PMPosted by Bertimus
This has the makings for prepatch all over again because you can accomplish all of this out of stealth.
Stacking Azerite traits is the problem once again. If that wasn't a thing, we wouldn't be having this issues.

11/13/2018 09:38 PMPosted by Bertimus
We still have no reliable setup mechanics because of scatter dr and the removal of bursting disorient.
This is just one of the completely unaddressed glaring issues that remain.
Posted by Bertimus
This has the makings for prepatch all over again because you can accomplish all of this out of stealth.
Stacking Azerite traits is the problem once again. If that wasn't a thing, we wouldn't be having this issues.


I think for this specific issue: there's a reason why you cannot cast greater pyro out of invisibility. Not only is sniper shot un-kickable, you can cast it from 60+ yards away out of stealth. So think in the case of a rogue/mm opener (which was the problematic combo in prepatch) - you stand 60 yards away and effectively accomplish a gpyro into that full explosive aimed arcane burst out of stealth. The follow up RF is also going to hit really hard, and may well be OP by itself, but even without it, that opening burst sequence from stealth and far away is what the most immediate problem will be.

Posted by Bertimus
We still have no reliable setup mechanics because of scatter dr and the removal of bursting disorient.
This is just one of the completely unaddressed glaring issues that remain.


Which is what's absolutely so frustrating about all of this. Since May, all of the PvP marks hunters have been giving this exact feedback in one way or another. That we need control instead of burst mechanisms for the plant and cast marks to work. They continue to do specifically the opposite. Just watch the first couple weeks of the season after this launches and has to be nerfed heavily and we're right back where we started.
11/13/2018 10:32 PMPosted by Bertimus
I think for this specific issue: there's a reason why you cannot cast greater pyro out of invisibility.
The reason you can't cast Greater Pyro out of invisibility is because you can't cast ANYTHING out of invisibility. It has nothing to do with its damage.

The two are very different. Greater Pyro is almost twice as much damage. It has no CD and a longer cast time. You can't chain cast Sniper Shot, so its just not going to play anywhere near as big a part as Greater Pyro does in kills. Yes its not kickable but again, it does half as much damage and Fire Mages have way more mobility and control. There is no direct comparison.
ill check this spec again in 9.0 i guess.

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