Marksmanship PTR Changes

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
Prev 1 17 18 19
11/13/2018 11:00 PMPosted by Masoschism
11/13/2018 10:32 PMPosted by Bertimus
I think for this specific issue: there's a reason why you cannot cast greater pyro out of invisibility.
The reason you can't cast Greater Pyro out of invisibility is because you can't cast ANYTHING out of invisibility. It has nothing to do with its damage.

The two are very different. Greater Pyro is almost twice as much damage. It has no CD and a longer cast time. You can't chain cast Sniper Shot, so its just not going to play anywhere near as big a part as Greater Pyro does in kills. Yes its not kickable but again, it does half as much damage and Fire Mages have way more mobility and control. There is no direct comparison.


It does almost as much as g pyro because it gets affected by mm mastery. G pyro is usually between 40-50k for me, sniper seems to be right at 40. OFC variable based on what you're hitting, but from what I can tell they're pretty close.
11/14/2018 07:12 AMPosted by Bertimus
It does almost as much as g pyro because it gets affected by mm mastery. G pyro is usually between 40-50k for me, sniper seems to be right at 40. OFC variable based on what you're hitting, but from what I can tell they're pretty close.
Testing on a target dummy is useless for percent based shots. Greater Pyro does 40-50k with some sort of ramp up on the raid target dummy (as you said). It does the same against any mob that has > ~150k hps. In PvP however where it actually matters it is exactly 35% of health, no matter the health. I get as low as 28k on noobs and upwards of 100k hits on tanks in BGs.

I tested Sniper Shot on mobs. Unfortunately I couldn't test it in PvP. It seems to do 20% minus some armor effect, but not the same armor effect of every other physical shot. Most mobs are normalized armor. Against animals and most humanoids it did 18.3% of health. Against a cloth humanoid it did 19.5% of health. Against a target with 174k health, it did 15.1% of health (26166 damage), so it has a cap just like Greater Pyro. Probably the same cap (20% of ~150k in this case).

Bottom line; it is no where near Greater Pyro in damage. Its damage is close to expected, but has some weird armor interaction (I think) which reduces it a bit. It is effectively half of Greater Pyro which is disappointing; it should be 20%. Oh well.
11/14/2018 07:12 AMPosted by Bertimus
It does almost as much as g pyro because it gets affected by mm mastery. G pyro is usually between 40-50k for me, sniper seems to be right at 40. OFC variable based on what you're hitting, but from what I can tell they're pretty close.
Testing on a target dummy is useless for percent based shots. Greater Pyro does 40-50k with some sort of ramp up on the raid target dummy (as you said). It does the same against any mob that has > ~150k hps. In PvP however where it actually matters it is exactly 35% of health, no matter the health. I get as low as 28k on noobs and upwards of 100k hits on tanks in BGs.

I tested Sniper Shot on mobs. Unfortunately I couldn't test it in PvP. It seems to do 20% minus some armor effect, but not the same armor effect of every other physical shot. Most mobs are normalized armor. Against animals and most humanoids it did 18.3% of health. Against a cloth humanoid it did 19.5% of health. Against a target with 174k health, it did 15.1% of health (26166 damage), so it has a cap just like Greater Pyro. Probably the same cap (20% of ~150k in this case).

Bottom line; it is no where near Greater Pyro in damage. Its damage is close to expected, but has some weird armor interaction (I think) which reduces it a bit. It is effectively half of Greater Pyro which is disappointing; it should be 20%. Oh well.

Edit: Also, there is zero benefit to Sniper Shot from mastery.


It would be great if you could actually queue for and do a skirm or something in any reasonable timeframe on ptr.

I am basing this solely on what I can actually test, which is my mage and hunter against the PVP dummy, and those are the numbers I’m seeing. G pyro is consistently about 44k, sniper is consistently about 38-40k.

I get what you’re saying about the damage cap though. If they’re both trying to do a % base of the millions of health the pvp dummy has and have a cap, they’re gonna be close to the same in damage in that one scenario.
@Masochism

I may be a lot regressive because “all” I want is the WOD-era MM back, modified into pure physical damage, along with a series of talent options that line up in such a way that pigeonhole the hunter into MOP SV, but I never bothered to ask what you’d like to see out of MM.
Thanks Bertimus for championing our cause for MM and continually posting about the core changes we need lol. And all the rest of you guys too. Hope Blizzard sees it and throw some more changes our way. Miss playing MM in arena :(
It just occurred to me it might actually be affected by both armor and mastery normally and it just so happened that the two were almost exactly canceling at my current mastery level. So I tested it.

Using a mastery trinket vs. one without it seems it works exactly the same as all other physical damage shots. It interacts with armor and mastery normally. This means it could go above 20% damage with increased mastery, though it might take a while to get there since our mastery isn't strong. This is different than Greater Pyro. I wonder if this is intended.

I edited my above post to remove evidence of my conclusion jumping.
11/14/2018 09:41 AMPosted by Masoschism
It just occurred to me it might actually be affected by both armor and mastery normally and it just so happened that the two were almost exactly canceling at my current mastery level. So I tested it.

Using a mastery trinket vs. one without it seems it works exactly the same as all other physical damage shots. It interacts with armor and mastery normally. This means it could go above 20% damage with increased mastery, though it might take a while to get there since our mastery isn't strong. This is different than Greater Pyro. I wonder if this is intended.

I edited my above post to remove evidence of my conclusion jumping.


Well g pyro is technically affected by mage mastery in that it procs ignite. It’s just not modified like sniper because mage mastery doesn’t do that. Which is what makes the 20% number deceptive for sniper shot.

If the numbers I’m seeing on the pvp dummy are normalized to a 150k health pool, then I think I am right that it’s pretty close to a g pyro. The difference there between hitting a mage or warlock vs a plate class will be stark too.

Either way I would still much rather have a reliable setup mechanic, and think that’s the healthy way forward for the spec. Without it, we are just too one dimensional which will always result in being stupid op or worthless.
11/14/2018 09:20 AMPosted by Kabbie
I may be a lot regressive because “all” I want is the WOD-era MM back, modified into pure physical damage, along with a series of talent options that line up in such a way that pigeonhole the hunter into MOP SV, but I never bothered to ask what you’d like to see out of MM.
If you add in situational abilities that were removed after MoP such as Scare Beast (that works on feral/travel form) and Eyes of the Beast, etc. then that sounds just about perfect to me. WoD was my favorite MM version for sure.

Realistically I would like:

-- Removal of the counter-intuitive parts.

- AoE not working on two targets (like how AoE works for every single other ability in the game).
- Camo being available only half the time. (Should be baseline. The talent sould make it permanent and reduce the CD (to 20-30s). Remove the healing for all I care.)
-- AoE talents mixed in with (primarily) ST talents makes for very bad choices. Choices are good, forced to make bad choices is bad.

-- Fix the broken parts.

- Precise Shots clipping is the most broken and the most important "core ability" thing for me. All talents that cost focus and globals are currently traps for the unwitting, some more than others. This needs to be fixed! (Easiest way is to reduce Precise Shots to just one proc. Most fun way is to remove it and put all that damage into its own shot under our control.)
- Surging Shots interaction with Double Tap and Streamline
- Scatter/Trap DR issues (either fix that directly, or give us some other reasonably reliable way to get off a trap in organized PvP. A baseline root or root on tar trap would work.)
-- Oh ya, and Scatter should be baseline since its mandatory, damn useful in PvE and iconic MM!
- Lone Wolf is not an option in PvP (it needs to be utility neutral)
- Piercing Shot focus cost reduced to 15, CD reduced by haste, and its damage increased to 150*AP (from 112.5). This puts it in the ballpark of LnL (it would still suffer from Precise Shots clipping, but at 15 focus it would be a lot less of an impact).

-- Add situational abilities back. Abilities that are only used when something OUTSIDE OF OURSELVES causes us to react to it.

- Tranq Shot
- Kill Shot
- Scare Beast

-- Add reactionary abilities like LnL used to be, or Marked Shot (sans Vulnerable). This could be accomplished by removing Precise Shots and upping the proc rate of LnL and making it baseline. (Note: Precise Shots is NOT a reactionary ability, but a deterministic one. Its just Aimed Shot extended into more focus and globals.)

More specifics on talents:

-- 75 tier has only one option. Posthaste should be baseline, or the others need to be MUCH better than they are to compete (or both). Born to be Wild needs to be drastically different (could be two charges on those abilities, and include another charge of disengage). Binding Shot MIGHT be competitive if its CD was cut ~ in half.

Also, why are Aspect of the Cheetah/Turtle on a 3 min CD in the first place. Neither one is worth a 3 min CD.

-- Barrage is out of place (and suffers mightily from Precise Shots Clipping).

-- Trailblazer is worthless. Old Aspect of the Cheetah was awesome for kiting, but took skill and practice to use to best effect. If anyone thinks this is some sort of replacement for that, they have NEVER played a hunter.

-- Lethal Shots is a feel bad ability. Let us have control over how our character plays. A 100% chance for Arcane to reduce Rapid Fire by 1 second would be so much better than a 20% chance to reduce it by 5s, even though they are ~ equivalent numerically (not really, but close enough). Did we not learn this lesson with Careful Aim, Master Marksman and the previous (live) version of Lethal Shots?

-- Hunter's Mark has no business being in the focus tier. Reduce its effect and make it baseline again. Put something that actually affects focus in its place.
11/14/2018 09:51 AMPosted by Bertimus
If the numbers I’m seeing on the pvp dummy are normalized to a 150k health pool, then I think I am right that it’s pretty close to a g pyro.
I don't think so. My tests did not show that, but I didn't test it on a target dummy. You would need a 150% mastery multiplier for it to be equal to Greater Pyro. That is unattainable under any circumstance. Realistically it will probably cap around 24% of health on mail at the end of BfA (a 70% mastery multiplier), adjusted for other armor types.
Would having Precise Shots be a stacking buff that increases the damage of your next arcane/multi up to 2 times be better? i.e. 1 stack = 75% 2 stacks = 150%
11/14/2018 09:53 AMPosted by Masoschism


Realistically I would like:

-- Removal of the counter-intuitive parts.

- AoE not working on two targets (like how AoE works for every single other ability in the game).
- Camo being available only half the time. (Should be baseline. The talent sould make it permanent and reduce the CD (~20-30s). Remove the healing for all I care.)
-- AoE talents mixed in with (primarily) ST talents makes for very bad choices. Choices are good, forced to make bad choices is bad.

-- Fix the broken parts.

- Precise Shots clipping is the most broken and the most important "core ability" thing for me. All talents that cost focus and globals are currently traps for the unwitting, some more than others. This needs to be fixed! (Easiest way is to reduce Precise Shots to just one proc. Most fun way is to remove it and put all that damage into its own shot under our control.)
- Surging Shots interaction with Double Tap and Streamline
- Scatter/Trap DR issues (either fix that directly, or give us some other reasonably reliable way to get off a trap in organized PvP. A baseline root or root on tar trap would work.)
-- Oh ya, and Scatter should be baseline since its mandatory, damn useful in PvE and iconic MM!
- Lone Wolf is not an option in PvP (it needs to be utility neutral)
- Piercing Shot focus cost reduced to 15, CD reduced by haste, and its damage increased to 150*AP (from 112.5). This puts it in the ballpark of LnL (it would still suffer from Precise Shots clipping, but at 15 focus it would be a lot less of an impact).

-- Add situational abilities back. Abilities that are only used when something OUTSIDE OF OURSELVES causes us to react to it.

- Tranq Shot
- Kill Shot
- Scare Beast

-- Add reactionary abilities like LnL used to be, or Marked Shot (sans Vulnerable). This could be accomplished by removing Precise Shots and upping the proc rate of LnL and making it baseline. (Note: Precise Shots is NOT a reactionary ability, but a deterministic one. Its just Aimed Shot extended into more focus and globals.)

More specifics on talents:

-- 75 tier has only one option. Posthaste should be baseline, or the others need to be MUCH better than they are to compete (or both). Born to be Wild needs to be drastically different (could be two charges on those abilities, and include another charge of disengage). Binding Shot MIGHT be competitive if its CD was cut ~ in half.

Also, why are Aspect of the Cheetah/Turtle on a 3 min CD in the first place. Neither one is worth a 3 min CD.

-- Barrage is out of place (and suffers mightily from Precise Shots Clipping).

-- Trailblazer is worthless. Old Aspect of the Cheetah was awesome for kiting, but took skill and practice to use to best effect. If anyone thinks this is some sort of replacement for that, they have NEVER played a hunter.

-- Lethal Shots is a feel bad ability. Let us have control over how our character plays. A 100% chance for Arcane to reduce Rapid Fire by 1 second would be so much better than a 20% chance to reduce it by 5s, even though they are ~ equivalent numerically (not really, but close enough). Did we not learn this lesson with Careful Aim, Master Marksman and the previous (live) version of Lethal Shots?

-- Hunter's Mark has no business being in the focus tier. Reduce its effect and make it baseline again. Put something that actually affects focus in its place.


I just wanted to quote all of your post because it was all so amazing.
Playing around with the new build on PTR, this changes things a bit::

Aimed Shot feels worth using and even necessary in rotation again. Rapid fire isn’t a replacement now. You want to use both inside TS and out. It’s good in a way, but you’re back to being a turret. Rapid fire as a replacement outside TS left you much more mobile.

Surging shots is still strong, but you don’t feel as punished using something else.

Careful Aim feels more worthwhile now, but Explosive Shot still feels good. I could make an argument for either.

Trueshot was good, now it’s even better. The stronger Aimshot with a 1s cast time is gold. Trueshot in the Careful Aim windows is awesome.

Piercing Shot feels stronger now that it ignores all armor, but the focus cost is very noticeable and it just doesn’t feel like it measures up to a reduction in TS cooldown. LnL feels very sub par now. It’s still difficult to pick the other two over Calling the Shots.

Multi-Shot -> Explosive Shot -> Aimed Shot -> Piercing Shot all combine to provide a really strong AE burst that mostly all hits at the same time. It’s fun but it takes like 4s to pull off. A lot can go wrong and you need a ton of focus to make it happen.

Serpent Sting is a little stronger, but it takes GCD’s away from Arcane Shot and Arcane Shot reduces the cooldown of much stronger abilities, not mentioning the use of precise shots. AMOC is at least more worth the GCD. Serpent Sting needs something more.
I just want a dang setup.

We had:

Binding or wyvern
Bursting Disorient
Trap

Now we just have trap. You can't remove 2/3 of a CC spec's CC and expect it to still work in PvP. Especially given that the other caster/cc oriented classes kept or GAINED cc. How does nobody at blizzard see this as a problem? I just don't get it.
11/14/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Thyssalia
Would having Precise Shots be a stacking buff that increases the damage of your next arcane/multi up to 2 times be better? i.e. 1 stack = 75% 2 stacks = 150%
Yes. It is the focus and globals that it takes up that cuts into that focus and globals being used on the talents that use such things. This is what breaks the math of the spec. Your proposed reduction in both globals and focus would solve the problem. But I have to ask, why do we need this type of purely damage based RNG anyways (I'm not asking you, I'm asking Blizzard)? It doesn't change gameplay, so what's the point?

I still wish Precise Shots was just removed and the damage put into another shot though. This would give more agency to the user, instead of playing the whack-'o-mole minigame that is Precise Shots.
11/14/2018 10:04 AMPosted by Masoschism
I don't think so. My tests did not show that, but I didn't test it on a target dummy. You would need a 150% mastery multiplier for it to be equal to Greater Pyro. That is unattainable under any circumstance. Realistically it will probably cap around 24% of health on mail at the end of BfA (a 70% mastery multiplier), adjusted for other armor types.


I was able to get a 160k hp warlock to test with me, and all of my sniper shots hit him for 37k. My greater pyro hits him for 43k. Damage definitely went down as the armor of target went up. Was ~30k against 150k warrior not in d-stance. 26k against a feral in bear with 156k. G pyro was pretty consistently 43-45k against all of them except the feral (bear might have passive dr?).

I don't think I ever said that the abilities were "equal", but I do think that it's something to look out for. Against the warlock that I was able to get to be my target dummy, I was able to Sniper (37k) -> explosive (25-40k) aimed (25-50+) arcane (10-24) out of stealth every duel against him. It's a very significant opener, especially given that you're able to immediately follow up with a DT rapidfire that you prepped. This may very well be the intended advantage for the class, I don't know. I am merely saying that I would have much rather had scatter off trap DR or any control mechanism than steps in this current direction. Win in the opener or lose isn't fun for anyone on either side of that opener.
11/14/2018 09:43 PMPosted by Bertimus
I don't think I ever said that the abilities were "equal", but I do think that it's something to look out for. Against the warlock that I was able to get to be my target dummy, I was able to Sniper (37k) -> explosive (25-40k) aimed (25-50+) arcane (10-24) out of stealth every duel against him. It's a very significant opener, especially given that you're able to immediately follow up with a DT rapidfire that you prepped. This may very well be the intended advantage for the class, I don't know. I am merely saying that I would have much rather had scatter off trap DR or any control mechanism than steps in this current direction. Win in the opener or lose isn't fun for anyone on either side of that opener.
I would just like to point out that Sniper Shot was the lowest damage of those abilities you mentioned except Arcane, and that was against cloth.

My main point was that you can't compare them. I say that because I have been playing Fire (with Greater Pyro of course) exclusively since BfA started. It just does a lot more damage. If you are only getting 45k with it, something is wrong. It is always 35% of health in PvP (it may be reduced by magic or general DR, though I am not sure and haven't tested it). I got a 90k hit against a DH tank earlier. It took me ~8 seconds to kill him (from the shadows while someone else tanked him). Against that warlock it should have been ~56k. If it wasn't, something else is going on that you aren't telling me. I cast it every day in PvP. I know how much it does. Your numbers do not match my 1000's of casts.

I do agree the potential burst is extreme against cloth, though I don't think its worse than (or even as good as) Fire or Destro (against everyone).

Also your total cast time for all those things is at least 10 seconds, maybe more. I'm not convinced being able to kill a clothie (the most vulnerable) while blowing a CD (Double Tap) in 10 seconds while they do nothing to protect themselves is out of line. It's certainly not the same as a one shot kill like Double Tap + Careful Aim was providing.
11/14/2018 10:06 PMPosted by Masoschism
11/14/2018 09:43 PMPosted by Bertimus
I don't think I ever said that the abilities were "equal", but I do think that it's something to look out for. Against the warlock that I was able to get to be my target dummy, I was able to Sniper (37k) -> explosive (25-40k) aimed (25-50+) arcane (10-24) out of stealth every duel against him. It's a very significant opener, especially given that you're able to immediately follow up with a DT rapidfire that you prepped. This may very well be the intended advantage for the class, I don't know. I am merely saying that I would have much rather had scatter off trap DR or any control mechanism than steps in this current direction. Win in the opener or lose isn't fun for anyone on either side of that opener.
I would just like to point out that Sniper Shot was the lowest damage of those abilities you mentioned except Arcane, and that was against cloth.

My main point was that you can't compare them. I say that because I have been playing Fire (with Greater Pyro of course) exclusively since BfA started. It just does a lot more damage. If you are only getting 45k with it, something is wrong. It is always 35% of health in PvP (it may be reduced by magic or general DR, though I am not sure and haven't tested it). I got a 90k hit against a DH tank earlier. It took me ~8 seconds to kill him (from the shadows while someone else tanked him). Against that warlock it should have been ~56k. If it wasn't, something else is going on that you aren't telling me. I cast it every day in PvP. I know how much it does. Your numbers do not match my 1000's of casts.

I do agree the potential burst is extreme against cloth, though I don't think its worse than (or even as good as) Fire or Destro (against everyone).

Also your total cast time for all those things is at least 10 seconds, maybe more. I'm not convinced being able to kill a clothie (the most vulnerable) while blowing a CD (Double Tap) in 10 seconds while they do nothing to protect themselves is out of line. It's certainly not the same as a one shot kill like Double Tap + Careful Aim was providing.


Those are good points. We'll wait and see.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum