Marksmanship PTR Changes

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10/17/2018 07:30 PMPosted by Bertimus
10/17/2018 07:27 PMPosted by Jackson
just because it's not a talent doesn't make it a "choice." They both have cases where they're absurdly warranted, and little middleground. It's like saying "yeah, I've got 5 stacks of steady aim and lethal shots up, so I have the choice between hitting aimed shot or flare"

Right now there are situations where you want to use a pet and situations where you don't want to use a pet. If they buffed LW, you would always want to not use a pet. How is that making it any more of a choice? It sounds like you are saying that the choice is too obvious, which I guess I just don't see as a problem.

It's not a choice in any meaningful way. Like, if someone offered you a million dollars, or a nickel. Super obvious "choices" aren't actually choices if there's only one correct answer
I said this in the other MM thread, but I'm actually concerned about the new sniper shot. This really needs a lot of consideration before they decide to go through with it. The only other ability in the game that is remotely close to this is greater pyro, which can be kicked and has a higher cast time (while also having no CD and a higher %health's worth of damage). The spec is already incredibly one-dimensional in PvP, and none of the changes listed so far are really going to change that. This is a burst gimmick; effectively a chaos bolt that you cannot kick every 10s. When it has to be nerfed, we're right back at square one with a base damage kit that feels awkward with such little control.

Really what is needed for a healthy and fun PvP spec(assuming that the other core kit changes also go through/keep coming) is the control kit improved. Scatter off trap DR is still a must since so much control was lost with BfA rewrite. A talent that let you trade the knockback on bursting for a knockdown/root/stronger snare would actually improve the core functionality of the spec in PvP a lot more than a bigger radius or longer lasting snare imo. Either or both of those really.

I would rather have a solid control kit with reasonable burst over having a kit that otherwise plays very awkwardly without control but works because of a gimmicky burst mechanic. Imo the former is a healthier direction for the spec and arena/pvp meta.
Scatter off Trap DR, Aimed Shot baseline 1.5 second cast and MM is no longer a free HK in pvp again.

Seriously, it's limited by charges, why does it also have to take 6 years to cast. By the time you finish casting it, the rogues stepped to you and done 40-50% of your HP and you get rewarded with a 12k Aimed Shot.
Basicly if our trick shot stays as it is now MM is dead on m+ content.

Explosive shot and trueshot thats good change but rest meh tbh.
Good to see work is being done and I see the logic behind some of these changes but honestly looks like a nerf overall so far for PvE, from the Steady Aim build (the only build that did somewhat relevant damage at all). And MM is already bottom of the barrel for raids and mythic+.

Mechanically, it looks better of course as it promotes using more abilities, but I'm not seeing the numbers. All MM damage was in Lethal Shots Steady Aim, that got gutted, where is it coming from now? Almost all these changes outside Lethal Shot nerf (killing the Steady Aim build) and Trueshot buff are quality of life/RNG changes rather than number buffs to offset nerfing the only viable build.

New Rapid Fire trait is probably going to be required 2-3x now instead of Steady Aim, and we'll do less damage overall probably? Building a spec around a required azerite trait is bad. If we're just going from a Steady Aim required spec to a Sharpshooter required spec, that's replacing one problem with another. Baseline Rapid Fire needs to be buffed heavily (instead of new Azerite trait) for these changes to make sense for PvE. Also new Lethal Shots still looks problematic... are we going to just spam arcane shots instead now to try to get Rapid Fire resets?

Baseline AoE still looks weak. Explosive Shot QoL change is irrelevant when Careful Aim is way better and is also getting QoL change. Having to sacrifice big ST talents just to do mediocre AoE is just not viable in mythic+ and almost all raid encounters, especially when execute is often very important. Why not just swap Barrage and Careful Aim positions in the tree and then balance appropriately?

The good news is though, numbers can still change. These changes look like they make it easier for them to just then buff numbers till they aren't poop anymore. So I hope numbers will be looked at before release?

PS- MM still looks bottom tier for mythic+. Bad baseline AoE and still way less utility and survivability than BM, especially if you want to use Lone Wolf.
Im happy that blizzard is finally looking into our class, I was honestly thinking for a moment they thought we were okay. We need a lot more help in the mythic plus department though. Zero reliable AoE and not a lot of synergy within our AoE skills. Also utility! I think we at least deserve some sort of hard CC in order to keep ourselves competitive!
Survival of the fittest needs a 1 min CD. It's a 20% barksin that lasts for -six- seconds, on a 3 min CD. Come on now?
10/17/2018 07:28 PMPosted by Fairyland
10/17/2018 06:29 PMPosted by Ehelolx
Legion MM was the most disgusting thing to happen to any spec ever which is saying a lot considering legion/bfa class design.
I find it an impossible task to compare 'who sucked most', given what Demonology Warlocks have went through in Legion.

Seriously, anyone even want to challenge they have it worse than Demonology in Legion?

Legion MM was not even close to disgusting. It was meta and one of the most powerful specs in both pvp and pve, with amazing priority add damage, burst aoe, and cleave all in one.

Aimed shot was hitting even harder than some chaosbolts, on top of big meaty marked shots that were instant casts.

Multishot into marked shot alongside trick shot+ lock and load procs was amazing.

People who hated Legion MM were just terrible players because the fact is you had guaranteed vulnerability window uptime thanks to windburst to cover streaks of marked shot starvation (which was very rare by Nighthold).
You had all this feedback in Beta. Where is our cleave and procs?
Still waiting for Spriest changes
10/17/2018 08:15 PMPosted by Aileya
Survival of the fittest needs a 1 min CD. It's a 20% barksin that lasts for -six- seconds, on a 3 min CD. Come on now?
I agree, this definitely needs looking into.
I’m also kind of interested in a specific detail about explosive shot. Is it targeted at the area where the target is at the time of cast or will it follow the target if it moves?
10/17/2018 09:50 PMPosted by Bertimus
I’m also kind of interested in a specific detail about explosive shot. Is it targeted at the area where the target is at the time of cast or will it follow the target if it moves?
It's gonna function like the old ES. Instead of it dealing fire damage every 3 seconds, it's gonna tick to 3 seconds before it explodes damaging everything within 8 yards.

So no more skill shotting.
First of all, I really appreciate the blue (Dev blue no less!) post and the explanation on your thoughts for these changes. I am thrilled to see that steps are being made to improving the spec, and am very hopeful to see more changes as the PTR progresses. And now, some feedback. For reference, I am a heroic raider (now AoTC after switching to this guy, because I missed hunter so much), I enjoy M+ quite a bit, but I don't PVP.

1) Keeping distance: I understand that these are PVP changes mostly, but the ability to kite a thing is very nice to have. I can't currently think of a situation where I would have to kite one thing for an extended period of time, but being able to do so going forward is another utility I'll happily accept. I do think that a brief (~2s) root would be appropriate to add to Bursting Shot, both in PVP (for reasons stated by other hunters here far more experienced in PVP than I), and in the kiting scenario.

2) Rapid Fire usability: Okay, being able to disengage during RF is something I legit didn't think about, and I appreciate it being added in. Will that functionality be added to Steady Shot as well? Only curious. As for the LOS change, I will appreciate that on fights like boss 2 in Temple of Sethraliss or G'huun P3, where I have to face away. I have other concerns about RF which I'll address shortly.

3) Aimed Shot/Careful Aim: The removal of randomness is something I was hoping for, and this was a great place to do it. Evening out Aimed Shot (and removing the first-hit bonus) will, I imagine, allow more room to tweak the numbers without having cascading changes in PVP, which I could see being a potential problem before. As it is, when CA goes off on a first-hit Aimed shot crit, when I'm out in the world, it's usually one-shotting things my level. I'll miss that, but the potential for a stronger base aimed shot could make up for it, if that's how you choose to use the design space you've created.

4) Trueshot: This change I was not expecting. The reduced recharge on AiS is very welcome, as is retaining the faster cast speed (I'm assuming the exact numbers aren't set in stone), but with Autoshot being a substantial part of our damage now, the haste did affect that too, as well as Steady Shot and the GCD etc, so I hope come tuning time that's considered also. It's a very interesting move, and I look forward to seeing how it maths out.

Overall, I have to say the changes, and the reasoning behind them, is very, VERY welcome. However, I would like to note here some issues we would very much like discussed, and we would very much appreciate if you would follow up with us. Those issues are:

1) Lone Wolf: This is a tricky one, as there isn't a great consensus on this so far as I've seen. People are split. Some want it to be buffed so that petless is always the correct choice, and either the command pet ability can be changed or not, and if not, the damage boost is enough to compensate the lost utility. I don't fall into that camp personally, but it's a valid line of thought. The second option, is the removal of the ramp up time of Lone Wolf, coupled with a faster dismiss pet cast. Being able to swap pets on the fly would be interesting, and provide a unique aspect of pet management other specs don't have, but I could see it being hard to justify and being unfriendly to newer players.

Another option, the one I would most strongly advocate for is the removal of lone wolf entirely, we just use pets, and hopefully an appropriate portion of lone wolf's bonus is baked into the spec baseline. This would be the best for PVP players, who (almost) always use a pet (I'm told), and for PVE players who enjoy the extra utility, and showing off their cool pets they sought out and tamed.

2) 2-target cleave/AoE: So we currently have a blind spot between 1 and 3 targets where our effectiveness dips. This may be an intended design decision, strengths and weakness and niches, I understand that entirely. However, this isn't a great feeling currently, as there are many situations where two targets are present and stacked, and having no way to take advantage of that (besides explosive shot) feels bad. Perhaps consider making Explosive Shot (and by the way, love the change to this ability, loved it before too, but I digress), a baseline ability.

As for AoE beyond 5 targets, these are somewhat rarer outside of edge cases (Or very high M+ levels), so if our cap is again a design decision, I could appreciate that, and again, baseline Explosive Shot would be greatly helpful, without having to uncap our RF/AiS cleave. Speaking of Rapid fire...
3) Rapid Fire: Okay, so the quality of life changes to Rapid Fire are great! The problem is...I almost never use it on anything but a Lethal Shots buffed cleave scenario. With the redesign to LS (which wasn't mentioned in your post, but I can surmise the reasoning has something to do with a certain Azerite trait,) and the new Trueshot both putting more emphasis on Rapid Fire, I'm curious; what is the intended role of Rapid Fire? It generates, it can be cast on the move, but Steady Shot does those too. It does more damage than Steady shot, but less than Aimed Shot, which makes sense, but it really only shines on 3-5 targets, not an uncommon scenario, but not at all present on some bosses.

If it's meant to shine in AoE, why can't it do that naturally? I don't know that Rapid Fire actually needs to be changed necessarily, I'm just not sure where it should fit in a single target scenario. I would very much appreciate learning about your design space intent for Rapid Fire, so that I could offer better feedback.

4) Talents and talent tree: Specifically, Careful Aim seems out of place where it is, in a row that seems focused on expanding our AoE, as a talent that seems more like a ST focused one (Specifically on long lived, high health enemies like bosses). I understand that AiS cleaving is a part of our AoE, but it's still limited by our target cap, whereas the other two aren't. Again, here, I think making Explosive Shot baseline is a good move, and as the poster below me (Post-edit) stated, perhaps make that row about enhancing Explosive shot? Volley is indeed a somewhat uninteresting ability, damage numbers aside, and Careful Aim doesn't seem to belong.

In truth, the core issue is that we would like to get out of the current situation of having "The ST spec" and "The AoE spec" and performing significantly worse in the situation opposite the spec we've chosen. There should be some degree of maximizing ST at the expense of AoE, and vice versa, that's half the point of talents after all, but we should also be able to spec in a way that allows us to function adequately in both scenarios. This is particularly important in an age of M+ (Where we're spec locked), and contemporary encounter design (in which many raid fights have sizable AoE or cleave components, in addition to a large boss HP pool to cut though). Again, my feeling is that our Niche is to be mobile ranged ST damage dealers, so having a slight weakness in AoE without specing deliberately to counter it is absolutely fine, but the current state of things makes that disparity too great, and we feel the gap needs to be closed. Some of that is a tuning issue, but some isn't.

In summary, I'm very pleased with the changes posted today, I'm very excited about seeing what comes next, and I'm very hopeful about the future of the spec, as it's one very near and dear to me. We're passionate people, and the more you communicate with us, the more we would love to offer feedback. Thank you, and I hope this has been valuable.
Some really much needed mechanical and qol changes so far. There is a lot of work to go though. Utility lost during lone wolf is a major issue. There are also some talents that are incredibly undesired and boring such as Hunters mark. If they want to bring back some fan service abilities they should consider killshot, marked shot(without vulnerability), or Chimera shot as baseline.

They could even make explosive shot baseline and make the whole talent row focused around it. All they would have to remove is volley from tier 2 (A boring passive). Move careful aim to tier 4 (replacing hunters mark... does anyone really think this talent is fun?).
10/17/2018 05:52 PMPosted by Elynos
10/17/2018 05:48 PMPosted by Rockford
Fantastic QoL changes that should have been in release (you had the feedback).

Trickshot requiring 3 targets is horrible for cleave, and should be activated on Multi Shot (no target requirement). Though tbh, Trickshot being our baseline AoE mechanic, and basing it from Aimed's limitations (despite recent improvements), still feels horrible.

Again, these are welcome changes that should have been in release, not months after.

In addition, posting plans for the spec are very welcome, and would love to see much more on a regular basis (hint hint Shadow).

Please stop, legion had tons of class problems till 7.1.5. Just be happy they are fixing things.
Hey, don't get me wrong. I appreciate the communication and QoL changes we're now receiving, though do not excuse lack of development just because it was the same for the previous expansion... These changes are from pages of feedback given back in Alpha, months before release. Yes it's good to see them finally make it in, but could have easily made it into release if the information had been considered when it was given.

As for my feedback on Trickshots, as you'd recognise from previous threads, or even posts within this thread, it's still an issue. These changes are very, very welcome. But Marksman will still have issues, of which players will continue giving constructive feedback.

@Elynos, I see no suitable reason to stop considering feedback already given. But yes, I am very happy in the direction of these changes, and hope for more refinement in the coming weeks as we get closer to 8.1 release.

@Nimox: I really do appreciate the information (and work on the spec), despite being a little tough on the subject. I do hope there's consideration on how to further improve on MM's AoE, as Trickshot's 3 target requirement (for activation), and limited target effect could really be improved. Maybe test internally with Multi activating Trickshots in a similar way to Beast Cleave.

These Marksmanship changes look great, at least rotationally, especially for pvp. It's unfortunate that the Lethal Shots change has essentially killed a fun Aimed Shot build, however.

If you have 2x Surging Shots and 1x Focused Fire, this spec's rotation is fluid and feels very good. Arcane Shot is now worth pressing outside of Precise Shots, which is really good for Calling the Shots, even more so now that Trueshot is a more effective cooldown.

The Careful Aim change should've happened a long time ago, but now that it has, I have less complaints.

The only thing this spec severely needs now are actual Honor Talents. Ranger's Finesse is pretty outdated and is defensive-focused when Hunters already have too many defensive-based Honor talents. I didn't like Trueshot Mastery AT ALL before the change to Trueshot, but now I think it might absolutely be worthwhile. Scatter Shot still diminishing trap is pretty ridiculous, especially considering that BM and SV have access to Intimidation baseline, MM doesn't bring unique cc to the table.

The Sniper Shot change is certainly interesting, but in an Arena setting this talent's strength will still be negligible, which is honestly fine and makes sense. Scorpid and Viper Sting still feel way too weak to be worth a slot, especially when compared to Spider Sting. Perhaps significantly reducing the cooldown of Viper or buffing the effect of Scorpid and increasing its cooldown(old Scorpid disarm!)

Crows, Serpent Sting, and Piercing Shot still look to be terribly undertuned, and they don't feel like they add anything to the rotation. It actually feels more satisfying to me to only have the 4 rotational abilities, I don't know if that's a side effect of them being grossly undertuned or not however.

It doesn't feel good to choose between Posthaste and Binding Shot. Personally I feel that Posthaste should actually be a baseline passive for MM, as the talent was originally in the MM tree in Cataclysm, and something new/old takes its place as a talent.
The single biggest problem with MM’s viability is BM. Why bring an MM hunter to anything when a BM hunter does everything an MM hunter can do better, plus more?

- BM has full mobility.
- BM has better dps.
- BM has pet passives.
- BM has hero.
- BM has tranq shot.
- BM has single target stun.
- BM has good AoE.
- BM doesn’t have to choose between AoE and ST talents on the same rows.

How to fix MM:
- Aimed Shot cast time reduction and/or usable while moving.
- Make Posthaste baseline.
- Tranq shot returning.
- Distracting shot returning.
- No target count restrictions on trick shots. I understand the want to make MM AoE fill a certain niche but in reality the current implementation is just infuriating to work with, no other spec has such awkward artificial feeling restrictions on their AoE. Make multi shot activate trick shots regardless of target count and and allow Aimed Shot to ricochet to every target in range, bring back damage falloff like we had in legion to balance this.
- Let us chose a pet family from lone wolf like we could chose raid buffs in warlords. This would give us the passive and the active for the chosen family. Make changing this a cast time the same length as Dismiss Pet.
- Make lone wolf better dps than pet in all situations.
- Volley needs to be 100% chance on auto attacks and should be able to be toggled off like in legion. Just bring back legion volley minus the focus cost.
- AoE and ST talents need to be split up and put on their own rows, e.g. Piercing Shot and Careful Aim should swap positions.
10/17/2018 05:38 PMPosted by Nimox
Trueshot has changed a lot over the years, but it’s currently not a very exciting button, and it could feel much more impactful when you use it.

This is correct and the Legion artifact weapon trait that gave it 50% crit damage as well made it very powerful combined the cooldown reduction from nighthold stuff. I would love to see some cooldown reduction outside of talents, perhaps in another trait in the mysterious "4th outer ring." In Legion I had this feeling of excitement for Trueshot on patchwerk dps fights like Ursoc, Star Augur, Goroth, etc... I would often think "Oh man if that fight had just lasted another 12 seconds, I would have gotten another Trueshot in and beaten the Demon Hunter." In BfA as it stands, I think "Oh man Trueshot is coming off of CD in a second, I really don't want to waste the GCD just to overcap on aimed shot charges while I could be casting something useful."

Another thing marksmanship really needs is two target cleave. This is very very important. I know we haven't seen all the proposed changes for 8.1 yet but this is the biggest deal for marks right now. Hitting 6 targets or more is also important but our multishot spam at least allows us to do comparable damage for short periods (until we run out of energy and have to steady shot on a single target while other specs continue aoe). Chimera shot is an obvious choice, beast mastery doesn't know how lucky they are to have both beast cleave and chimera shot; what an insane combo!

Something to change would be to allow Trick Shots to activate from just 2 targets and instead of 50% damage, it should be 75% or 100% for the second target (basically making an aimed shot/rapid fire into a chimera shot). With 3 or more targets, take it back to the normal 50%. I really don't want Marks to be overpowered in dps, I just want it to be applicable. I finally did the first 6 mythic bosses as marks this week and the only problem is competing with Stampede/beast cleave/chimera on Zek'voz adds and chimera on Vectis add (I'm normally BM for progression but the farm bosses are easy enough for marks now). Marks works great on Fetid and Taloc, I really hope that strength doesn't dwindle in 8.1. Going backwards on a spec that is already entirely useless in progression will not feel good.

Another avenue is to change Piercing Shot somehow along the same lines, allowing it to hit a single target or two targets very very hard and then three targets or more having reduced damage (but still a lot when you hit a bunch of targets). I really really miss using piercing shot in M+ in Legion, lining up a big pull (think all the trash before first boss of Maw of Souls) and piercing shot for 20 million.

Right now the only two target cleave (that isn't really cleave) is the "Aimed Shot does 50% increased damage to a target you haven't damaged yet" effect. This means you slap one guy with an aimed shot and arcane shot(s) then stop your auto attack, switch to the other guy, aimed shot him and continue with single target.

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