Marksmanship PTR Changes

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I've really grown fond of the single target rotation (even though I have to be a Steady Aim trait !@#$%). The fast pace of Steady Focus quick casts and fishing for a Lethal Shots proc make marks a very involved spec (though still clunky with RNG, sometimes going 15 steady shots without a single (25%) Lethal Shots proc). I would like to see crit become a useful stat again, so changing Lethal Shots is a good thing. I'm just afraid of changes that will nerf the only strength marks has right now (pure single target).

A quick target dummy round on the PTR also showed me that the new Trueshot rotation isn't sustainable. Casting two empowered arcane shots after an aimed shot (which any sane person would do) will actually clip into your 2nd aimed shot charge from the new cooldown reduction. It's a little much. Perhaps dial it back to 25% and instead put some crit damage back into trueshot or some other flat damage increase (increase mastery by multiplicative 25%?). Haste isn't as great as you think it is. Haste just creates a tighter and tighter battle with your internet ping and a talent like Steady Focus only worsens that. Even with maximum button mashing, you'll start losing out on some of your haste stat just to the simple mechanics of internet speed. I'm okay with having a 2.5 second aimed shot (I'm able to implement it perfectly fine in mythic Uldir and high level M+ right now (though I cannot speak for pvp where I assume it's terrible)) and would rather see the damage go up instead of the haste go up.

Arcane shot change is great, multishot buff will help with mass aoe (you should bake in a stacking buff that reduces cost of each new cast of multishot and reduces it's GCD, kind of like Yang's Recurve in Diablo 3). Explosive shot change is very welcome change as is the Careful Aim execute RNG removal. I am excited to see what other changes come and I'm hopeful that my guild officers may allow me to raid as marksmanship in 8.1 (we decided I should go BM for progression even though I personally don't like it).

luv u, bye
10/17/2018 11:54 PMPosted by Arwic
The single biggest problem with MM’s viability is BM. Why bring an MM hunter to anything when a BM hunter does everything an MM hunter can do better, plus more?

- BM has full mobility.
- BM has better dps.
- BM has pet passives.
- BM has hero.
- BM has tranq shot.
- BM has single target stun.
- BM has good AoE.
- BM doesn’t have to choose between AoE and ST talents on the same rows.

How to fix MM:
- Aimed Shot cast time reduction and/or usable while moving.
- Make Posthaste baseline.
- Tranq shot returning.
- Distracting shot returning.
- No target count restrictions on trick shots. I understand the want to make MM AoE fill a certain niche but in reality the current implementation is just infuriating to work with, no other spec has such awkward artificial feeling restrictions on their AoE. Make multi shot activate trick shots regardless of target count and and allow Aimed Shot to ricochet to every target in range, bring back damage falloff like we had in legion to balance this.
- Let us chose a pet family from lone wolf like we could chose raid buffs in warlords. This would give us the passive and the active for the chosen family. Make changing this a cast time the same length as Dismiss Pet.
- Make lone wolf better dps than pet in all situations.
- Volley needs to be 100% chance on auto attacks and should be able to be toggled off like in legion. Just bring back legion volley minus the focus cost.
- AoE and ST talents need to be split up and put on their own rows, e.g. Piercing Shot and Careful Aim should swap positions.


Respectfully, I think that, regarding Lone wolf in particular, it should be removed entirely, and the numbers tuned to reflect the damage lost.

Removing Lone Wolf would allow us to simply use pets, being able to bring the utility we desire as we need. We could bring heroism and tranq if need be that way. The rest is simply an issue of tuning and I think it's honestly the simpler and cleaner way.

I believe also that the AoE awkwardness is possibly an intentional weakness designed into MM, and is overstated by the current undertuning of MM.

From what I can gather, MM seems to be designed as a Mobile Ranged ST dps. I imagine many would scoff as us being, well, any of those three things right now, and they wouldn't be wrong, but here's why I think that.

The only thing we can't do while moving is Aimed Shot. With the changes to Lethal Shots, and the extra attention given to Rapid Fire, I wouldn't be surprised to see RF being brought more in line with Aimed Shot, in terms of damage at least. I'm still a bit puzzled about RFs role to be totally honest, and this is the only thing I can think of that makes sense in a ST situation. I would expect to hear more or see more to do with Rapid Fire as the PTR progresses.

As an alternative, I would be happy to see Rapid Fire cleave either become something the ability simply does on its own, or tie it to another thing, but the cooldown on RF seems problematic if it's our best cleave option. Again, just thinking out loud here. The new LS might mitigate that somewhat, but it's hard to say for sure.

Regardless, our AoE isn't great, and it needs to be better, even before talents enter the equation. However, I would not be surprised if trick shots remains unchanged, but AoE was buffed in another fashion. Baseline Explosive Shot would be a start too.
10/18/2018 12:21 AMPosted by Moröw

Respectfully, I think that, regarding Lone wolf in particular, it should be removed entirely, and the numbers tuned to reflect the damage


If you want a pet go play BM or SV. Pet AI is terrible and lonewolf was the best addition to the hunter class in the history of the game.

Also, if you want our aoe niche to continue to be “completely useless in aoe situations” (i.e unviable in m+) then sure, why not. I guess we can just continue to play BM all the time like we do now.
I would like to see Marksman with a different aoe style, similar to combat rogues, and old windwalker.

-Make Trickshots a toggle ability, that makes all of our single target attacks, except for arcane shot, deal aoe damage. Make the focus cost of these abilities increased by 5, but steady shot and rapid fire, have increased focus cost, only if they hit multiple targets. 10 Second CD, lasts until cancelled, this ability is on the GCD.

-Secondly, Lone Wolf's functionality REALLY needs to change. It should revert to being an instant buff. PLEASE make our pet ability reflect the pet we previously dismissed, giving us lust/leech, stam/survival, or movespeed/master's call.

-Give us tranq shot! Not just for MM but for all hunters. Not having access to this ability, outside of a pet is just laughable.

-Barrage needs to not follow the Marksman bonus range logic, so the ability is more controllable.

-Steady Focus should go back to the "upkeep" buff it used to be. Make it give haste, even if it's a small amount and make us keep it up, not just buff steady shot. It's incredibly awkward.. Atleast make it not remove itself when you cast another ability. The talent doesn't feel like it fits in anywhere.

-MM feels weak without it's self healing it had in Legion.

-Lock and Load should be based off % chance of Steady Shot, to encourage it's use in some situations.

-Serpent Sting should be buffed, but have its cost increased slightly to make it the "go-to" on two target fights, giving MM a possible 2-3 target cleave.

-Master Marksman should benefit Multishot just a little bit more than Arcane Shot, to make it a strong AoE talent, but still usable single target. This, with the Serpent's Sting change i mentioned, would clearly make MM for AoE w/e single target, SS for ST w/ cleave, and AMoC for pure ST. Would make the level 15 talents stand out a bit more.

-Hunter's Mark should just be baseline, off GCD, without its focus generation mechanic. The focus generation mechanic just seems like it makes MM feel awkward in aoe situations where you're just spamming multishot because you have too much focus to do anything with it. If anything, swap it with Careful Aim. That way Hunter's Mark competes with Volley and ES to make it more desirable, and that way Streamline, Steady Focus and Careful Aim are on the same tier. I'd almost say make the level 60 talents for level 30, with careful aim still there, to better help levelers.

All the changes i saw so far, seem fantastic from my testing earlier. I'm definitely excited to play MM next patch!
10/18/2018 03:32 AMPosted by Vesira
-Give us tranq shot! Not just for MM but for all hunters. Not having access to this ability, outside of a pet is just laughable.
Hey there, i got an argument for you.

It goes like this: There's plenty of X other people in your group/raid that can do it, so it is fine that you can't do it. Not every class needs to be the same.

Plenty of people keep feeding us warlocks with that as a 'logical reason' why we and we alone can't have a baseline interrupt without using a pet - in fact, a specific pet, to be precise.

I'm sure that same logic also works perfectly fine for not giving you a baseline tranq shot.
10/18/2018 03:48 AMPosted by Fairyland
10/18/2018 03:32 AMPosted by Vesira
-Give us tranq shot! Not just for MM but for all hunters. Not having access to this ability, outside of a pet is just laughable.
Hey there, i got an argument for you.

It goes like this: There's plenty of X other people in your group/raid that can do it, so it is fine that you can't do it. Not every class needs to be the same.

Plenty of people keep feeding us warlocks with that as a 'logical reason' why we and we alone can't have a baseline interrupt without using a pet - in fact, a specific pet, to be precise.

I'm sure that same logic also works perfectly fine for not giving you a baseline tranq shot.


There's a pretty big difference here though

Hunters always had Tranquilizing Shot, even if it wasn't always an offensive magic dispel. Warlocks always had their interrupt on their pet.

You're taking away something we HAD but giving it back to us with some scratches and dents in it.
Blizz any word on Shadow Priests???
10/18/2018 12:21 AMPosted by Moröw
10/17/2018 11:54 PMPosted by Arwic
The single biggest problem with MM’s viability is BM. Why bring an MM hunter to anything when a BM hunter does everything an MM hunter can do better, plus more?

- BM has full mobility.
- BM has better dps.
- BM has pet passives.
- BM has hero.
- BM has tranq shot.
- BM has single target stun.
- BM has good AoE.
- BM doesn’t have to choose between AoE and ST talents on the same rows.

How to fix MM:
- Aimed Shot cast time reduction and/or usable while moving.
- Make Posthaste baseline.
- Tranq shot returning.
- Distracting shot returning.
- No target count restrictions on trick shots. I understand the want to make MM AoE fill a certain niche but in reality the current implementation is just infuriating to work with, no other spec has such awkward artificial feeling restrictions on their AoE. Make multi shot activate trick shots regardless of target count and and allow Aimed Shot to ricochet to every target in range, bring back damage falloff like we had in legion to balance this.
- Let us chose a pet family from lone wolf like we could chose raid buffs in warlords. This would give us the passive and the active for the chosen family. Make changing this a cast time the same length as Dismiss Pet.
- Make lone wolf better dps than pet in all situations.
- Volley needs to be 100% chance on auto attacks and should be able to be toggled off like in legion. Just bring back legion volley minus the focus cost.
- AoE and ST talents need to be split up and put on their own rows, e.g. Piercing Shot and Careful Aim should swap positions.


Respectfully, I think that, regarding Lone wolf in particular, it should be removed entirely, and the numbers tuned to reflect the damage lost.

Removing Lone Wolf would allow us to simply use pets, being able to bring the utility we desire as we need. We could bring heroism and tranq if need be that way. The rest is simply an issue of tuning and I think it's honestly the simpler and cleaner way.

I believe also that the AoE awkwardness is possibly an intentional weakness designed into MM, and is overstated by the current undertuning of MM.

From what I can gather, MM seems to be designed as a Mobile Ranged ST dps. I imagine many would scoff as us being, well, any of those three things right now, and they wouldn't be wrong, but here's why I think that.

The only thing we can't do while moving is Aimed Shot. With the changes to Lethal Shots, and the extra attention given to Rapid Fire, I wouldn't be surprised to see RF being brought more in line with Aimed Shot, in terms of damage at least. I'm still a bit puzzled about RFs role to be totally honest, and this is the only thing I can think of that makes sense in a ST situation. I would expect to hear more or see more to do with Rapid Fire as the PTR progresses.

As an alternative, I would be happy to see Rapid Fire cleave either become something the ability simply does on its own, or tie it to another thing, but the cooldown on RF seems problematic if it's our best cleave option. Again, just thinking out loud here. The new LS might mitigate that somewhat, but it's hard to say for sure.

Regardless, our AoE isn't great, and it needs to be better, even before talents enter the equation. However, I would not be surprised if trick shots remains unchanged, but AoE was buffed in another fashion. Baseline Explosive Shot would be a start too.


Or you know... They could bring back how lone wolf worked in WoD, and then add tranq shot. If you want to play a pet spec go play BM! don't wreck the spec for those who like the sniper archetype. If anything they need to double down on lone wolf and remove all pets. Pets don't fit the class fantasy of MM, they literally just auto attack, pull unwanted trash and glitch in walls.... so much fun...
10/18/2018 03:55 AMPosted by Ryutiz
You're taking away something we HAD but giving it back to us with some scratches and dents in it.
True, but the concept is the same: you don't 'need' to have what other people have.

Personally, i think that is a pretty sorry excuse, but maybe the same concept that's being forced on warlocks might actually work on other classes as well. Experiment, right?

Arguably not having a dispel is not going to wipe your group, but not having an interrupt? The risk alone is miles apart. But hey, we are expected to deal with that pointless limitation. I'm sure you'll adjust to it as well.

Probably you'll even have some of your vocal members start lecturing you how 'it is fine', because they are 'mythic experienced'. 'JUST USE THE DAMN PET, YO!'

It is rather funny though - i'd expect people would have a better idea how stupid it is to have utility stuck on pets, which gets worse if said utility is getting more important due to game changes. Why would forcing interrupt on pet makes sense, when people can't even stand having dispel, a less important utility compared to interrupt, requiring a pet to function?
10/18/2018 03:55 AMPosted by Ryutiz
<span class="truncated">...</span>Hey there, i got an argument for you.

It goes like this: There's plenty of X other people in your group/raid that can do it, so it is fine that you can't do it. Not every class needs to be the same.

Plenty of people keep feeding us warlocks with that as a 'logical reason' why we and we alone can't have a baseline interrupt without using a pet - in fact, a specific pet, to be precise.

I'm sure that same logic also works perfectly fine for not giving you a baseline tranq shot.


There's a pretty big difference here though

Hunters always had Tranquilizing Shot, even if it wasn't always an offensive magic dispel. Warlocks always had their interrupt on their pet.

You're taking away something we HAD but giving it back to us with some scratches and dents in it.
I'd rather have the ability to traq instead of lust. I hate they turned MM or the whole class into a lust bot. I don't want to be accepted to raids or M+ because of that. It was ok with it being BM only but not MM.
I’ve filed a bug report in-game, but just a head’s up: the reworked Trueshot is not playing well with Double Tap; the latter is ignored if Trueshot is active.
10/17/2018 05:38 PMPosted by Nimox
The Public Test Realms (PTR) are seeing several changes for Marksmanship Hunters. Here’s some context on those changes.

One goal of ours for Marksmanship is proficiency in keeping targets at range in PvE and PvP situations. Marksmanship plays best when you have distance from your target, so we’re emphasizing some of the tools that help you either move a target away from you, or keep your distance.
    - Bursting Shot has had its knockback range increased, can no longer be dodged, and snares targets for 6 seconds now.

    - Steady Shot will now increase the duration of Concussive Shot on the target by 3 seconds. This will work on a Concussive Shot from any friendly Hunter, not just your own Concussive Shot.


Rapid Fire has had some usability problems in PvP. Most other channeled spells will continue to deal damage when your target runs behind a pillar and breaks line of sight, but Rapid Fire requires constant line of sight. We’re changing that, and now it will behave like almost every other channeled spell that players cast, and will continue to damage a target, even if the target is no longer in line of sight. We also think it’s cool to be able to use Disengage while channeling Rapid Fire, so now you can.

Aimed Shot is a driving force behind a significant amount of the damage a Marksmanship Hunter deals. There are a lot of different stacking bonuses you can get from various Talents and Azerite Armor that can swing the damage of Aimed Shot by a huge amount. Some of these bonuses are entirely uncontrolled, which made Aimed Shot an unreliable source of damage. We want Aimed Shot to feel like an impactful and more reliable source of damage, so:
    - Careful Aim is now a guaranteed bonus to Aimed Shot damage against targets above 80% health or below 20% health.


Trueshot has changed a lot over the years, but it’s currently not a very exciting button, and it could feel much more impactful when you use it. We like that it makes your Aimed Shot cast time reduced, so we’re keeping that, and it now additionally causes your Rapid Fire and Aimed Shot abilities to recharge significantly faster while Trueshot is active. The new version of Trueshot is a significant pacing change for its duration, allowing you to cast multiple Aimed Shots and Rapid Fires during its duration. We’re also lowering its cooldown from 3 minutes to 2 minutes.


More communications like this everywhere please!!!
10/18/2018 12:21 AMPosted by Moröw
10/17/2018 11:54 PMPosted by Arwic
The single biggest problem with MM’s viability is BM. Why bring an MM hunter to anything when a BM hunter does everything an MM hunter can do better, plus more?

- BM has full mobility.
- BM has better dps.
- BM has pet passives.
- BM has hero.
- BM has tranq shot.
- BM has single target stun.
- BM has good AoE.
- BM doesn’t have to choose between AoE and ST talents on the same rows.

How to fix MM:
- Aimed Shot cast time reduction and/or usable while moving.
- Make Posthaste baseline.
- Tranq shot returning.
- Distracting shot returning.
- No target count restrictions on trick shots. I understand the want to make MM AoE fill a certain niche but in reality the current implementation is just infuriating to work with, no other spec has such awkward artificial feeling restrictions on their AoE. Make multi shot activate trick shots regardless of target count and and allow Aimed Shot to ricochet to every target in range, bring back damage falloff like we had in legion to balance this.
- Let us chose a pet family from lone wolf like we could chose raid buffs in warlords. This would give us the passive and the active for the chosen family. Make changing this a cast time the same length as Dismiss Pet.
- Make lone wolf better dps than pet in all situations.
- Volley needs to be 100% chance on auto attacks and should be able to be toggled off like in legion. Just bring back legion volley minus the focus cost.
- AoE and ST talents need to be split up and put on their own rows, e.g. Piercing Shot and Careful Aim should swap positions.


Respectfully, I think that, regarding Lone wolf in particular, it should be removed entirely, and the numbers tuned to reflect the damage lost.

Removing Lone Wolf would allow us to simply use pets, being able to bring the utility we desire as we need. We could bring heroism and tranq if need be that way. The rest is simply an issue of tuning and I think it's honestly the simpler and cleaner way.
Removed part of the previous quote to add in an edit.

Echoing what some other posters have said, if people want to play with a pet, then they can go play BM. MM is the petless spec and should have lone wolf function like it did in WoD, being petless is always the highest dps in all scenarios and you can choose which pet families buffs you want to apply. You may ask why this should be the case? Well, with the effective removal of SV at the end of WoD and Blizzard's unlikeliness of adding another ranged weapon mobile non-spellcaster class to the game (it doesn't have to be physical damage), one of the specs has to fill the niche of the lone ranger. Seeing as BM has always been the pet spec, that task falls to MM. You don't see characters like Legolas, Robin Hood, or Tracer (seriously, why isn't dual pistols a thing?), etc. running around with a retarded AI whose only purpose is to be a meat shield for you.

Also I fail to see how Trueshot is any better outside the reduced CD time and reducing Rapid Fire's CD. If i'm not mistaken the previous haste buff filled the exact same purpose that the 'new' Trueshot does by reducing cast and CD times of AiS and cast time of RF, but also sped up the rotation by reducing the GCD and giving more focus through increased focus regen and faster steady shot casts (something the 'new' Trueshot doesn't do).

Edit: Just as a note i'm not advocating for the removal of melee SV, just pointing out the removal of the ranged playstyle of SV, which worked so well the other 2 were modeled off of it over the span of post-WotLK to WoD to the point that it got called out as copying the other specs for some reason, has created a gaping hole where a playstyle fantasy no longer exists.
There’s two things I am concerned about when giving MM cleave again. That the PvP meta will become similar to legion where sidewinders and cleaving all targets for pressure was how win conditions were created.

I think the following will improve our pve AoE without making us cleave in PvP.
1) Buff multi shot so it does significantly more damage than arcane shot in two target cleave. Maybe make it a multiplier effect, so multi shot can’t do high single target damage. So if multi shot hits one target it does 5k vs 6-7k for arcane. But if it hits two targets or more it does 8k+.
2) make trick shots activate on 2 or more instead of 3 or more.
3) nerf trick shots in PvP, aimed and rapid fire will do full damage to main target but only 25% or something to off targets.

Multi shot becomes really good for mass AoE but not as good as other classes who specialize in mass AoE. We become good at 5 target or less AoE.

Trick shot nerf in PvP prevents us from just cleaving teams down.
something needs to be done to AoE , give me back the old volley and make it proc instant crit multishots or something .
10/17/2018 08:20 PMPosted by Veilstrike


Legion MM was not even close to disgusting. It was meta and one of the most powerful specs in both pvp and pve, with amazing priority add damage, burst aoe, and cleave all in one.

Aimed shot was hitting even harder than some chaosbolts, on top of big meaty marked shots that were instant casts.

Multishot into marked shot alongside trick shot+ lock and load procs was amazing.

People who hated Legion MM were just terrible players because the fact is you had guaranteed vulnerability window uptime thanks to windburst to cover streaks of marked shot starvation (which was very rare by Nighthold).


It didn't take a genius to figure out how to dps as legion MM, despite your beliefs. Some people care about gameplay and legion MM lacked severely in that department. It felt awful compared to pre-legion but I guess if the spec does good dps some people just don't give a damn.
Hey, Nimox! Shout out for great communication. I think most of these changes make sense and are welcome, even thought there are still points that need fixing (Lone Wolf buff and a few talents position on the columns – e.g. Careful Aim).

But there's something still unclear and maybe a short response here in this thread would clarify the philosophy behind a certain change. Here it is:

3) Rapid Fire: Okay, so the quality of life changes to Rapid Fire are great! The problem is...I almost never use it on anything but a Lethal Shots buffed cleave scenario. With the redesign to LS (which wasn't mentioned in your post, but I can surmise the reasoning has something to do with a certain Azerite trait,) and the new Trueshot both putting more emphasis on Rapid Fire, I'm curious; what is the intended role of Rapid Fire? It generates, it can be cast on the move, but Steady Shot does those too. It does more damage than Steady shot, but less than Aimed Shot, which makes sense, but it really only shines on 3-5 targets, not an uncommon scenario, but not at all present on some bosses.

If it's meant to shine in AoE, why can't it do that naturally? I don't know that Rapid Fire actually needs to be changed necessarily, I'm just not sure where it should fit in a single target scenario. I would very much appreciate learning about your design space intent for Rapid Fire, so that I could offer better feedback.


Pretty much this. What is the philosophy behind the changes on Lethal Shots? We don't have the numbers yet, as tunning is still under way. Nevertheless, as it is now, there are very specific scenarios (Focused Fire trait) that make Rapid Fire worthy used on CD regardless of Lethal Shots.

That said, are you planning making Focused Fire baseline or something like that? Without Lethal Shots AND without Focused Fire trait casting Rapid Fire seems useless compared to Aimed Shot.

It would be sad if the sole purpose of Rapid Fire was to be a filler when Aimed Shot is on CD.
10/18/2018 12:34 AMPosted by Arwic
If you want a pet go play BM or SV. Pet AI is terrible and lonewolf was the best addition to the hunter class in the history of the game.


Yes, this! Because pet AI is so undependable and because there needs to be a "Legolas" spec to make Marks different from Beast.

Otherwise why bother, Beast has so much above and beyond Marks right now it's ridiculous.
I feel as though these changes are wonderful and put marksmanship just shy of what I'd love to see from the spec.

I feel like all we need now is...
- Trick Shots proccing off of 2 targets, down from 3.
- The following talents to be adjusted or outright changed.
    Trailblazer - Maybe a passive 10% movement speed and have focus spent lower CD of Aspect of the Cheetah by 1 second per 10 focus spent. Additionally, swap the location of this and binding shot in the talent trees.

    Born to be Wild - Increase it's current effects to 30% and have it also affect disengage.

    (I know the first two would affect other specs as well, I feel like no one uses any of these talents anyway it would make them more meaningful choices to make. The following are more marks specific, at least.)

    Serpent Sting - If they're dead-set on us not having chimaera shot, just let us refresh the duration with arcane and multi-shot... or at the very least, aimed shot. (I'd like the former for some fun cleave mechanics, but if trick shots aimed ricochets would work, I'd be fine with that too.)

    Piercing shot - Have it buffed with precise shots.

    Hunter’s mark tweak - As it's in the "focus regen tier" how about having it refund half of the focus spent on arcane and multi-shot on the marked target?

    LnL - Make it baseline and put kill shot in its place.


- Also take scatter off of the trap dr already. I'd like to see anyone try and trap a druid worth his roots these days. Go ahead. Try.

- And finally, while we're at it, could we at least have lone wolf be able to choose the active ability based upon the last pet dismissed? Pipe dream, but doesn't hurt to ask.
10/17/2018 06:47 PMPosted by Kiwî
10/17/2018 06:31 PMPosted by Shadowmonger
Gratz Hunters

OK BLUE WHY ARE YOU SILENT ON SHADOW PRIESTS!?!


They deleted my reply to this post that asked the same question. So that's a good sign.


No, it's because this thread was very specifically concerning Hunters. Why you thought Blizzard would engage you about SPriests on the Hunter thread is baffling.

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