If LFR helps WoW, why are subs at an all time low?

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LFR gave Blizz an excuse to keep putting the majority of their resources into creating new raids, doesn't matter how lame it is.

Not that it matter anymore since they're shifting their focus to mythic+ now.

I expect to see the quality of raids to drop and the quality of 5 mans to increase in the next expansion.


I don't forsee this. They'd be cutting out something that has been a pretty big thing for the WoW franchise which is the World First race. It gets the game a ton of publicity on Twitch. Which is a platform that even Blizzard uses for competitions, QAs and updates about the game.

And I still don't believe that beating up target dummies equates to saving raids.
Hi guys. Just posting in the daily anti-LFR thread.
IMO the reason why WoW is losing subs is because it continues to focus too much on raiding and now Mythic+.

Why is this a problem? Because for the people who aren't interested in doing that content (which would be a lot of people) then there isn't much reason to play anymore.

If the point of the game is character advancement then in BFA that's a problem because you can get ilvel 350 pretty much handed to you not long after hitting 120 and then be left with nothing to do if you're not going to do mythic+ or raiding.

People need something they can grind for everyday, they need something to work towards that they actually want and right now thats missing.

Legion had all kinds of stuff, it had artifact appearances to unlock, the mage tower to gear for, legendaries to try and get to drop, and other stuff.

Past expansion had currencies like valor and justice points that you could get doing dailies and heroic dungeons and use to eventually buy raid quality gear.

BFA is missing stuff worth grinding for outside of raids and mythic+ and thats a problem.
[quote] They'd be cutting out something that has been a pretty big thing for the WoW franchise which is the World First race.

And I still don't believe that beating up target dummies equates to saving raids.


And how many people are actually involved in trying to get world firsts?

.001% of the player base?

I think you're overestimating how many players actually care about high end raiding and stuff like world first achievements.
11/08/2018 10:30 PMPosted by Dirge
11/08/2018 10:21 PMPosted by Jamesfisk
No tier gear anymore, equivalent epics rain from the sky from the Arathi loot pinatas and Warfront, so what reason is there to run LFR now?

This plus in Legion you would get a quest at the mission table to run a LFR Wing for a guaranteed drop. I won’t do LFR enduring multiple wipes with a simple roll of the bones when I know I can get something from a Warfront and small possibility of World Boss with much less effort.

The guaranteed drop in Legion was garbage though. Even if you raided normal you still got a piece of raid finder gear.
Because BfA is another expansion where there's not really anything to do at max level for more casual players. They have no real progression to go after. LFR drops really low ilvl gear and they're not going to get into mythic+.

There's no true replacement for artifact weapons where you feel like you're progressing something. Azerite is hot garbage.

Most of the daily emissary quests give garbage rewards.

At least that's why I see. I have no real desire to log in other than for raids because there's just not really anything for me to do. So if I didn't raid, I just wouldn't be logging in at all.

And I'm a big collector of things. Mounts, pets, reputations, etc. And well, the only things like that I can really go after at this point are from island expeditions and that's just not "content" I'm going to touch.
11/08/2018 10:52 PMPosted by Grimwulf
[quote] They'd be cutting out something that has been a pretty big thing for the WoW franchise which is the World First race.

And I still don't believe that beating up target dummies equates to saving raids.


And how many people are actually involved in trying to get world firsts?

.001% of the player base?


Not the point. Getting the game out in the public and with the amount of views that it got speaks for itself. The same goes for the MDI and the Arena tournament.

Just because players aren't looking to be top tier doesn't mean that they're not interested in watching top players play at the highest level. And Method decided to stream getting World First which got tons of views on Twitch.
11/08/2018 10:49 PMPosted by Grimwulf

BFA is missing stuff worth grinding for outside of raids and mythic+ and thats a problem.
I fully agree with this. I'm not a raider anymore and mythic+ does not interest me, leaving me with not much else other than the same WQs from when we were leveling and grinding AP (is it still called AP?) Not exciting stuff.

My playing time at 120 now is working on honorbound rep (I'm way behind) so I can level a Mag'har Orc, since that is way more entertaining than most of everything at max.
11/08/2018 10:17 PMPosted by Magnemyte
1.7 million subs is NOT a good number for the gam

I will never understand why people judge the game based on how many subs do we have?

As long as it's active and the queues are popping.. who cares about a number?

The game is alive, it's working.. people are playing it... 1million or 12million won't change your gameplay at all.
11/08/2018 10:17 PMPosted by Magnemyte
1.7 million subs is NOT a good number for the game... If WoW had more of a community + more RPG gameplay maybe more people would play? The LFR gameplay is dissatisfying to the spirit, people react better to the carrot than the stick.


Hey look at how many raids we got op. One! Nope not sense wod have the put out a new exspansion and only had one in begining and not anther one for 6 months well you get anther one. 6 months folk same raid for a whole 6 months.

Now sense wod they have been gutted LFR to point nothing left. They taken flying and put in a long time gate. They took end game out side of raiding and item scaled it/time gated, they took away pvp ability to buy gear, and the cherry on top they offered nothing but raiding as end game content. Yeah they threw in free gear from 7 ways to sunday. Most of it crap do to item scailing. Thus, don't blame anyone for this mess and why we leaving. Put the blame on who responsible for sub loss. Developer's and the direction they taken the game are the ones to blame. They are not looking to make anyone happy here lately.
The game would have died during Cata without LFR. It's kept the game alive all this time.
11/08/2018 10:26 PMPosted by Grimwulf
Without LFR there would be no more raiding, Blizz has stated this for the reason why it was introduced long after they said they would never create such a system.

It wasn't worth spending the resources to create raids when only a tiny fraction of the player base were doing them.


https://www.wowprogress.com/encounter/taloc-heroic

26115 distinct guilds have killed Heroic Taloc -- not counting the pugs. Assuming an average of 20 people per, that's about 522k unique players. You figure a few thousand less for people playing guild hopscotch, but MANY thousand more for those same guilds gearing up off-teams as well as any premade pugs.

If we go by the last released sub numbers Blizzard's given us (5.5 million as of Draenor) about 10% of players are at least 1/8 Heroic.

Of course that sub number is five years old and it's gonna be a lot less than that. If we go by the alleged leak number of 1.7 million, about 30% of all unique players have made progress on the second hardest raid tier in the game.

If we dip down into Normal Taloc, it's 37634 guilds, which comes out to just under half of all players.

Raiding is VERY accessible, at least to go in and smack the first couple loot pinatas. Maybe not as easy as Emerald Nightmare, but you don't have a shortage of warm bodies going in the door.
1.7 million subs ...
Is there a source for this number?
11/08/2018 11:38 PMPosted by Walkerbo
1.7 million subs ...
Is there a source for this number?


There was some dumb tweet by the guy behind weakauras that claimed that number. So everyone has latched onto it because they refuse to accept that we don't know.
If LFR helps WoW, why are subs at an all time low?
I dunno. Is there a reason that you think this feature that has been in the game for the last 5 expansions is suddenly responsible for WoW's current low subscriber numbers?
11/08/2018 10:52 PMPosted by Grimwulf
...

And how many people are actually involved in trying to get world firsts?

.001% of the player base?


Not the point. Getting the game out in the public and with the amount of views that it got speaks for itself. The same goes for the MDI and the Arena tournament.

Just because players aren't looking to be top tier doesn't mean that they're not interested in watching top players play at the highest level. And Method decided to stream getting World First which got tons of views on Twitch.


Yeah, no. Twitch revenue does not pay for raid design. In fact it’s a pathetic drop in the bucket compared to subs, which are themselves inferior to micro transactions.

Arguing that Twitch streams of the endgame are good enough advertising to draw consumers even enough to pay for the raids seems like a really bizarre stance.

Raid design isn’t part of the marketing department, buddy.
11/08/2018 11:58 PMPosted by Tyriellais
Yeah, no. Twitch revenue does not pay for raid design.


Twitch gives WoW another avenue of publicity outside of its usual means via commercials and ads. Any publicity is good in Blizzards eyes.

11/08/2018 11:58 PMPosted by Tyriellais
Arguing that Twitch streams of the endgame are good enough advertising to draw consumers even enough to pay for the raids seems like a really bizarre stance.


Good thing that's not what I said.
Lol cata was the start of declining subs , lfr stemmed it.

Anybody who doesn't lfr are pretty much done with progression and really don't have much to do till 8.1
11/08/2018 10:26 PMPosted by Grimwulf

Without LFR there would be no more raiding, Blizz has stated this for the reason why it was introduced long after they said they would never create such a system.

It wasn't worth spending the resources to create raids when only a tiny fraction of the player base were doing them.


And yet the game managed to support 12 tiers of raiding across vanilla and 3 expansions before LFR ever came out.

Strange huh.
11/08/2018 11:02 PMPosted by Dko
11/08/2018 10:17 PMPosted by Magnemyte
1.7 million subs is NOT a good number for the game... If WoW had more of a community + more RPG gameplay maybe more people would play? The LFR gameplay is dissatisfying to the spirit, people react better to the carrot than the stick.


Hey look at how many raids we got op. One! Nope not sense wod have the put out a new exspansion and only had one in begining and not anther one for 6 months well you get anther one. 6 months folk same raid for a whole 6 months.

Now sense wod they have been gutted LFR to point nothing left. They taken flying and put in a long time gate. They took end game out side of raiding and item scaled it/time gated, they took away pvp ability to buy gear, and the cherry on top they offered nothing but raiding as end game content. Yeah they threw in free gear from 7 ways to sunday. Most of it crap do to item scailing. Thus, don't blame anyone for this mess and why we leaving. Put the blame on who responsible for sub loss. Developer's and the direction they taken the game are the ones to blame. They are not looking to make anyone happy here lately.
next raid is likely in January with Crucibal in spring, then mid summer for Azshara. 7.3 raid will probably be next January. The 6 month figure seems off.

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