Chain Heal changes in the PTR

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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10/17/2018 06:05 PMPosted by Koorr
In raids chain heal typically makes all the jumps (since there are 20 people and we can cast it on melee)


Yeah no.... there are many situations in raids where chain heal doesn't actually chain and just ends up being a wasted long cast. Are you familiar with what spread mechanics and raid mechanics in general are? It doesn't seem like it.
10/18/2018 06:44 AMPosted by Prolificz
10/17/2018 06:05 PMPosted by Koorr
In raids chain heal typically makes all the jumps (since there are 20 people and we can cast it on melee)


Yeah no.... there are many situations in raids where chain heal doesn't actually chain and just ends up being a wasted long cast. Are you familiar with what spread mechanics and raid mechanics in general are? It doesn't seem like it.


Find me a raid spread where the entire raid needs to be >15y away from each other. if its a full raid spread, its typically <10y. Otherwise it's a single person running out AND THEN YOU JUST DON'T CHAIN HEAL THEM LIKE YOU DON'T CHAIN HEAL HUNTERS AT MAX RANGE.

If you have trouble hitting all your CH targets, then you've probably just messed up and honestly, with it being one of the only true smart heals in the game these days, target selection is the only aspect of the heal you really need to think about and have any sort of "skill" with.
30k mana is definitely way too much, that is 30% of our mana just for two buffed casts. Admittedly, the HT buffed CHs will hit like a true Jesus Beam at 672% SP, that is 90% more than the already buffed base CH (which will now be 33% stronger than live CH without HT). However, making it tied to mana spent will make it annoying to track and unreliable unless a fight has a lot of high damage AND stacking.

Lowering the mana spent needed would be good, or alternatively change the mechanic to make it somehow more reliable. I'd settle for an on-use that boosts your CH for X seconds, or make it charge-based so we can use them more meticulously (and for the love of Thrall, if you make it on use then do NOT put it on the GCD).

Overall a decent change, but we could still use some help. Our single target is still not too great, even when talented into Earth Shield. Speaking of, it would be nice if Earth Shield lost the stacks or got them greatly increased so as to reduce the need to recast it so often.
10/18/2018 06:44 AMPosted by Prolificz
10/17/2018 06:05 PMPosted by Koorr
In raids chain heal typically makes all the jumps (since there are 20 people and we can cast it on melee)


Yeah no.... there are many situations in raids where chain heal doesn't actually chain and just ends up being a wasted long cast. Are you familiar with what spread mechanics and raid mechanics in general are? It doesn't seem like it.


I'm all for increasing chain heal jump range in raids as well, I'm just focusing on mythic+ those days so was pointing out that in mythic+ it's even worse than in raids since there are only 5 people instead of 20, and we can't assume that the entire party is melee, so statistically there are less oppurtunities for chain heal to make all jumps.

Other healers just don't have to deal with this limitation in mythic+, their AOE spell heal just hits the entire party:

- druid wild growth is 30 yards around a player, so if casted on someone at the center, it can hit players 60 yards apart.

- disc priest puts atonment on the entire party, either using power word: shield, or using radiance, which again is a +/- 30 yards radius. Once players have atonment on them, dps spells just reach them even if they are spread.

- paladins can hit the spread players in the party with beacon of virtue.

- monk Essence font is 30 yards radius, again hits the entire party even if spread (and can be casted while the monk is moving!)

- monks even have Renewing Mist, which is so much better than riptide. It will by itself automatically find a new party member to heal if its current target is full HP and will jump to it, preventing overhealing at no additional mana cost.

And we have chain heal with 15 yards jump range, and not even +/- 15 since it has to chain from one person to the next and isn't radius based like other class spells. So if we cast it on someone at the center and it jumps 15 yards to the right, it can no longer jump to someone standing 15 yards on the left of the original player we casted on, since that would now be 30 yards apart. Compare this to other class spells which can reach +/- 30 yards in a radius (hitting players 60 yards apart), and we see chain heal has significant range limitation.

Yes chain heal is smart, but in a mythic+ settings smart heal has no benefits when other class spells, being non-smart, still hit the entire party.

Chain heal is numerically balanced assuming it makes all the jumps (and even then it's undertuned), so every time it doesn't we just wasted a long cast time and lots of mana for an inefficient spell. Also having to constantly being aware and track every player positioning is impossible with everyone dodging mechanics. In the past addons could get the player position through the API and recommend an optimal chain heal target, but this functionality has been removed.

Other classes just don't have to deal with this range limitation, their AOE spell just works and reaches the entire party.
For those comparing Wellspring to the new Chain Heal, don't forget, too, the interaction that Unleash Life brings. That will additionally buff the already supercharged Chain Heal by an additional 45%. This even further distinguishes the two builds: High Tide being the 'bursty' solution and Wellspring the more 'sustained' solution.

You will want to be watching your mana so that you cast Unleash Life right before you hit the 30k mana requirement. A very well-planned use of this talent will even possibly let you get two uses of this mega-charged Chain Heal during the same High Tide buff since Unleash Life has a 15 second CD. I like the idea that a highly skilled player who knows the fights well and who can micro manage their mana can be rewarded for their efforts.
10/17/2018 02:38 PMPosted by Sigma
Just to avoid any confusion that may be occurring due to tooltips on PTR:

  • Chain Heal's base functionality is unchanged, other than receiving a large healing increase (roughly speaking, baking in most of the value of the previous High Tide).
  • High Tide is redesigned, but is still a passive--the mana cost in the tooltip header is an error.


Brief context: as a passive buff to every Chain Heal, High Tide was putting it in an awkward position where the base skill wasn't very prominent in the toolkit if you used other talents. The goal here is to both put Chain Heal back on the map while using Ascendance or Wellspring in any type of content, and also provide a talent option which allows for strong moments centered around very large Chain Heals.

Usual PTR disclaimers: still under iteration, open to feedback, not necessarily tuned.

Pretty sure we said this in Legion beta... Good change but about time...
@Sigma

I like the general idea of the Hide Tide change, but I have a couple suggestions.

1. Having it proc off of a certain amount of mana spent is clunky. It feels unconnected with spec elements and unintuitive. Might I suggest instead having it proc after a certain number of Tidal Waves spent, so you feel like you have more of a part in generating the effect, instead of it just showing up sometimes when you're casting things. Would make the proc feel more rewarding imo.

2. Instead of Tidal Waves proccing with 2 charges, have it give us a single charge at a time, but stack up to 2 charges. That will give additional play to whether or not you want to pool charges in a fight -- and it will mirror the class ability Tidal Waves, which I think would feel very complete and intuitive.

Thanks a lot for taking a much needed look into rebalancing Chain Heal :)
10/17/2018 04:49 PMPosted by Waywithwords
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You call that detailed feedback? You have a really odd definition of detailed. Also, as someone playing priest and shaman, do calm down. Priests will get attention soon enough. You wailing like a 8 year old in the toy aisle won't speed that up.


Compared to "I thought we had a Shadow question. Nope, we don't," this is extremely detailed.


And you can march your rear end to the Priest thread. Otherwise, you're just being obnoxious and annoying. You're the bride's maid attending the wedding in a white wedding dress and shouting "What about meeeee?!@"
Sure would be cool if my "emergency heal" that I'm stuck using on fights like Mythrax healed for more than regrowth without the HoT, for 40% more mana
10/18/2018 10:02 AMPosted by Mysidia
And you can march your rear end to the Priest thread. Otherwise, you're just being obnoxious and annoying. You're the bride's maid attending the wedding in a white wedding dress and shouting "What about meeeee?!@"


I'd say it's more like Will Ferrell trying to get laid at a funeral in Wedding Crashers.
Let's hope they increase the buff's duration. 15 seconds is too short!
I'd like WoD's Hide Tide back. Additional target, zero falloff and the hidden component where it had extra bounce range. Maybe boring/unsexy but steady/reliable.

Wouldn't mind Ancestral Guidance or Mana Tide making a come back either for some extra flavor.
10/18/2018 06:37 AMPosted by Ragnarocket
While I don't disagree with you overall I do think there is a small "mini-game" as you put it in the form of Tidal Waves. It's nice to feel like I'm weaving different spells to get boosts to each in the form of more crit or faster cast times. Is it as engaging as some of the other mini-games for other specs? Depends on your definition. I think it's more fun than Holy Priest which is essentially charging up your big useful spells.


I see your point, but I would argue that 99% of the time, I don't feel it.
Let me tell you, as a Mythic raider, I don't feel it, I don't pay attention to it, and it's not fun for me (Personally). I don't base my casting decisions around this passive; I base it around the raid's needs/health at the time. On Mythic Argus it was useful, sure. The speedy casts really made me feel the urgency of the situation. I could feel it then, but not anymore. It's a hollowed out shell of what it used to be.
It just happens.
At least with Holy Priests, those big useful spells feel cool, look cool, and are genuinely useful.

For me, those are the only two things holding this spec back.
Nothing interesting, and Chain Heal isn't worth casting. Because when it is, it's usually too good, and you spam it.
10/17/2018 09:47 PMPosted by Glastian
his means that Blizzard is indeed trying to fix the classes.


10/18/2018 04:53 AMPosted by Noraver
Scalding Burst: Replaces Lava Burst
Hurls scalding water at your target, dealing X damage, and healing X allies within X yards for X% of the damage dealt. If Flame Shock is on the target, this ability always Crits.
High Tide:
Healing Wave/Healing Surge increases the duration of your active Riptides by 2 seconds, up to 10/12 seconds.
Undertow:
When you cast Riptide (Or when Riptide expires, couldn't decide), three additional allies within X yards are healed for X.

Those are fun.


You would think most of the ppl love to see something original than something totally alienating. Ffs someone go play Wotlk or MoP Rshaman, look what made them good and fun to play.
Can we please have the awesome chain heal animation that was introduced on 7.3 PTR? That was awesome
10/18/2018 06:37 AMPosted by Ragnarocket
While I don't disagree with you overall I do think there is a small "mini-game" as you put it in the form of Tidal Waves. It's nice to feel like I'm weaving different spells to get boosts to each in the form of more crit or faster cast times. Is it as engaging as some of the other mini-games for other specs? Depends on your definition. I think it's more fun than Holy Priest which is essentially charging up your big useful spells.


I see your point, but I would argue that 99% of the time, I don't feel it.
Let me tell you, as a Mythic raider, I don't feel it, I don't pay attention to it, and it's not fun for me (Personally). I don't base my casting decisions around this passive; I base it around the raid's needs/health at the time. On Mythic Argus it was useful, sure. The speedy casts really made me feel the urgency of the situation. I could feel it then, but not anymore. It's a hollowed out shell of what it used to be.
It just happens.
At least with Holy Priests, those big useful spells feel cool, look cool, and are genuinely useful.

For me, those are the only two things holding this spec back.
Nothing interesting, and Chain Heal isn't worth casting. Because when it is, it's usually too good, and you spam it.


So what would you say to something like the essence font talent for Mistweaver? Basically the longer it's on CD the stronger it gets to a cap.
I don't think I necessarily agree with changing the PTR version of high tide to a tidebringer like mechanic. I feel like if this is done, you essentially create an identical spell to wellspring. You would bank charges and use it on-demand for burst. You would have two talents do very similar things. And at that point, it comes down which is more HPS since one will basically always be better than the other. I think giving power to the shaman to affect the CD on how often high tide procs is important. It definitely gives the talent a niche, which is almost completely distinct from wellspring.

The problem is the 30000 mana requirement. And I don't mean the actual # , it's that the activation requirement feels so clunky that it feels so foreign to anything else in the game. Blizzard has to realize that no one in their right mind will truly ever track their mana consumption in hopes of banking charges on mythic fights. Even if you create some weak aura to do it, it still would be so clunky / something that should not be within the game.

Obviously we will be tracking the buff when it comes up, but if you are telling me you will be actively tracking your mana consumption on progression fights in hopes for holding out potential charges (outside of VERY specific circumstances), I would say you would be drastically losing actual HPS because its rare on most fights that there isn't SOMETHING WORTH spending your mana on. You might have to press SWG, drop HST on CD, drop a cap (or basically any cheap heal in periods of low damage) and all these things use some form of mana. And you can't reliably hold charges for that long with how short the buff lasts right now.

Outside of talking about it theoretically on these forums, I don't think anyone will ever truly try to track mana consumption on a progression fight for something like this (if it happens to go live in its current incarnation). It just makes no sense to me. They either will just not spec the talent, or they will use it on a fight where they are guaranteed to spend a metric ton of mana (and thus, have the buff up a decent amount of time without requiring much thought) in short interval bursts. There are plenty of examples like this even in past tiers (zul/mother are good examples now) with fights like butcher/krosus.

So while the mana requirement does give us some power on how to control the activation, I feel there has to be a better way to design something that gives us the power to proc high tide more often which is more intuitive. Perhaps change it to be affected by # of casted spells or something, but not entirely sure if this is the right answer either.
Quick update: the buff will have a longer duration in the next build. It is intended to be less of a "press button when it lights up" proc, and more something you can plan to use. This also should take stress off of knowing exactly when it will trigger (which is not something we want the talent to be about micromanaging).
10/18/2018 07:08 PMPosted by Sigma
Quick update: the buff will have a longer duration in the next build. It is intended to be less of a "press button when it lights up" proc, and more something you can plan to use. This also should take stress off of knowing exactly when it will trigger (which is not something we want the talent to be about micromanaging).


This wont change the fact that this talent is effectively a less reliable wellspring while being on the same row as it. This talent needs to be something for sustained AoE healing, not procing burst.
How much longer is a longer duration. And really change the activation condition or you'll have shamans spending mana before each fight to just get their stacks, cast a few more to get to around 15k to next set of high tide procs, drink mana, pull boss, use 2 chain heal, pick up next high tide proc, use them.
This became almost like a prepot mechanic now

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