Shadow Needs UTILITY to be Viable.

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
How are we going on SIX MONTHS as a quantifiable "joke" spec?

Even if shadow was competitive with FOTM spec warlocks and mages in damage (it's not, and won't be), there would still be zero reason to bring us. If we continue to be in-line with balance and elemental in damage, again zero reason to bring us.

Of the pitiful utility we do offer, holy and disc bring it anyway. Sure, shadow has a few super niche spells but it's not regularly useful stuff like immunities, lock portals, soothe, lust, mobility, damage CD's, healthstones, mana rejen, etc.

Hell, we don't even have a consistent form of CC.

It's pitiful.
Agreed. The utility that is brought by only one class could be spread around to better fix class balance at this point.

For instance Shroud of concealment needs to be given to a Nother spec. Shadow would be a great candidate for this.

Shroud of concealment needs to be given to another spec. Shadow would be a great candidate for this.

I also think (a similar version) of ring of peace needs to be given to feral and balance Druids.

Prot Warriors could be given death grip.

Health stones (fel Stones) should be given to Vengeance Demon Hunters.

The shaman talent that gives the group move speed needs to be made baseline for both ele and enhance shamans, to offset the Druid roar.

And lastly the DH and Monk 5% abilities neee to be made into a lesser consumable version.
I agree completely and posted something similar on the shadow changes post. We are not competitive with the top tier, and from the changes they are proposing, it’s not going to fix that. What we are, is competitive with locks and moonkins, however, and maybe BM hunters, but not as much. If they refuse to fix us, then at least give us the same utilities others have, or a new utility worth considering for groups. Here is what I proposed.

Give shadow a utility worth taking to mythic +, but not make it an op choice.

Our damage is not great, but it’s not bad either. If we get a 4-6% increase in damage (hopefully the changes will result in this), then all we need to be an option for mythic + is some utility unique or overlapping.

Unique ability - change current VE to 40% and make it a baseline smart heal for up to 5 players always on. Give Us a new 3 minute cooldown that increases it to 120% for 15 seconds. This will give us a strong healing utility in mythic + (5 players) while also providing a nice, but not OP, raid utility (20 players, but only 5 effected by smart heal) this gives shadow a unique utility. Tweet % as needed.

Not unique, but overlap. If blizzard doesn’t want to give us a unique utility, then give us Shroud. It goes with our lore and gives groups two options for shroud.

One of these two items, plus. 4-5% damage increase, would fix the issue of us not getting into mythic+ or raids. I prefer a rework, to fix our actual problems, (remove void form), but if we can’t have that, then give us a utility and put us on a competitive dps playing field.

PS give holy priests a BRES as well to give them a utility worth bringing. Disc already brings damage and healing, although, I think the nerd is to much for mythic+ disc, but about right for raiding disc.

Thoughts?
11/08/2018 01:45 PMPosted by Merise
cloak of shadows


You meant shroud of concealment right?
I agree, shadow utility is very week to even be considered for a M+ run, tbh out of the 3 Priest specs only Disc brings decent Utility with shields and damage reduction.

But I don't like just to complain, let's make this constructive and provide ideas on what utility could make sense for Shadow Priests, I have a couple of ideas:

1) Levitate (this one would apply to all priests)
It's a very niche ability with not many uses in a dungeon but I believe it could be turned into a strong utility tool, my idea would be that some ground abilities could be ignored while levitating, maybe not in raids since it would probably be OP but perhaps some specific dungeon mechanics could be countered by this??.

How about if you were able to Levitate over sanguine?, and/or make you immune to quaking? (I mean it makes sense from a fantasy perspective if levitating makes you immune quakes)... Or for example some abilities that put patches on the ground under your character for example the poison from the slimes before 2nd boss in King's Rest or the Fiery Enchant in Atal Dazar that shoots fire like a volcano at players location if not interrupted. Could be a very nice tool to counter some of shadow priest issues with mobility and defensives, since you could just levitate yourself instead of moving out of some of those abilities.

Also some dungeon skips could be implemented that took advantage of Levitate as well, maybe you could levitate over some lava river for example.

First step I'd say would be to make it not break instantly when you take damage, maybe if it could break when you more than 20% of your health in damage instead.

2) Shadowfiend / Mindbender (shadow/disc, maybe give it to Holy too)
Shadow Priests are hybrid casters, similar to Moonkin's and Ele Shamans, they both have the ability to assist the tank by summoning a temporary pet that takes aggo, Moonkin has treants while Ele shamans have Earth Elemental. It's a very strong utility tool that fits well in the Hybrid caster kit as a support tool, why not make Shadowfiend/Mindbender fit into that role too? just need to be made a bit tankier and give it the ability to taunt enemies around.
Fixing the utility issue would actually go a long way to fixing the comp issues and min/maxing the community does that makes certain specs very undesirable for M+.

Like Chaos Brand. Giving DH's 5% bonus magic damage makes bringing a DH mandatory.

Same with Monks for 5% bonus physical damage.

Same with Battle Rezzes: which is most often resolved with a Blood DK.

Same with Gorefiend's Grasp: which makes Blood DK mandatory.

Same with Shroud of Concealment: which makes a Rogue mandatory.

Just look at that list above, if you want all those things, you have no space for anyone else.

My recommendations to fix utility in M+:

* remove Chaos Brand from DH's, buff everyones magic damage by 5% (no change in mythic+)

* remove Mystic Touch from Monks, buff everyones physical damage by 5% (no change in mythic+)

* Give Shroud of Concealment to Shadowpriests (Void Walk), and Marksmen hunters (Mass Camouflage)

* Give Gorefiend's Grasp to all Warriors, Bears, and Feral Druids (Thunderstruck & Ursol's Vortex)

* Give Totem of Peace to all Shamans (Ring of Peace)
Shroud of Concealment for Spriests:

REALLY interesting idea, potentially super cool, flavorful, and a strong way to boost the spec in m+.

To play Devil's Advocate, the biggest flaw with the idea is that we don't also have Sprint.

Shroud is most effectively used when other party members are mounted. Rogues can pop a CD that gives them mounted speed during Shroud.

We don't. Party members would be unable to mount, they'd have to walk. Much less appealing.

At the same time, the Spriest Shroud ability (Void Walk, people are calling it?) couldn't bake in mount speed for the duration. A) Rogues would scream about it because it'd be flat superior to Shroud, and B) it would then double as a long-CD movement ability for Shadow, which causes all kinds of awkwardness.

End of the day, I think this is a cool idea that wouldn't work in practice.

A shadowpriest Gorefiend's Grasp (Aoe death grip) aka Black Hole, plus a comfortable overbuffing of our AoE to make us literally, actually, OP, for at least one patch cycle, would be best IMO.

Sprinkle in a better interrupt and a return of Mind Bomb's aoe stun OR a nice long-term-sustainably-strong buff to Vamp Embrace for significant group survivability, and you have a winner. We'll see more reasonable M+ representation within a patch cycle. Then, once people see what we can do, DPS numbers can be nerfed down to "really strong but not OP" and we'll be in fine shape.
Just allow us to cast Shroud of Concealment without dismounting ourselves (like Dispersion), problem solved :)

It wouldn't function as a Spriest sprint because it doesn't sprint us, we can just use it while also mounted.

Further, you could make it only activatable out of combat, then we can't use it as a Vanish/target drop for raid mechanics.
A shroud like ability would be cool.

I had something unique in mind like;

"Void shards"
Increases primary stat by X amount for 25 seconds.

Basically, a second DPS pot, similar in function to lock stones.
11/09/2018 09:37 AMPosted by Zubdub
A shroud like ability would be cool.

I had something unique in mind like;

"Void shards"
Increases primary stat by X amount for 25 seconds.

Basically, a second DPS pot, similar in function to lock stones.


Wouldn't justify bringing crappy DPS like Shadow. Better to just bring a DH/Rogue who could double our DPS.

Shroud is interesting because it lets you skip the most painful packs in a dungeon.
Hell no!
Remember what we just had for MoP and WoD?
Yeah, that on which I was hoping to see improvements. Finally from the shadows.
Then blizz thought it was cool to remove it and slap un with ink form!
So so long the idea of shrouds.
Piss on that Void Form! I never wanted. I want Guise back. And many other improvements.
At some points even rogues are more shadow than us (I want shadow theme back like crazy).
But as it seems, better roll a fotm. Or quit.
Couple utility ideas:
They could/should return a mana-recharge type utility to spriest. A cool down like embrace or a passive mana leech on vt.

They could make vampiric embrace more impactful. Combo of buffing the healing and changing the functionality maybe.

Not losing fear when selecting mind bomb would be nice.

Damage ideas:

Suggested this one a bunch of times but I shall repeat it;
Void bolt and void eruption separate buttons, with shared cool down. Can use either or to get into void form. All targets hit by eruption have their dot duration increases by 1.5-2 sec. void bolt dot duration increases to 5-6 sec for single target.

Could make shadowy apps baseline and replace the talent slot with one that causes them to explode for AoE damage when they hit a target.

Buff to mind sear: damage done to 3 or more targets reduces the cooldown of shadow crash by 1 sec, with a 4 second internal cool down.

This one doesn’t really help our AoE but SHADOW WORD DEATH BASELINE PLEASE.
I'm not sure if a Shroud-like ability would be the correct way to go, not because it wouldn't be nice, it definitely would, but I think the issue with Shroud being so game-breaking needs to be approached in a different way, and not by just giving it to more classes.

Maybe it could be less punishing to use stealth potions as a way to make Shroud less vital to a dungeon run? Using one makes all your battle potions go on a 10m cooldown and that's a very big deal. I understand that they need to have a long CD but it should be independent from the combat potions.

Another consideration for this would be to also allow the use of non offensive abilities during the stealth duration without breaking it, so players could still CC problematic enemies in the path (some of the shroud skips require the rogue to sap one or more enemies along the way).
Bumpin this cuz there’s some decent discussion.
Since Void Form is here to stay I suggest it include some utility.
If all ranged DPS did the same damage Shadow would still be picked last as it offers far less utility than all other ranged DPS.

I suggest when in Void Form a % of damage done heals the raid. This will work in the same manner as original Shadow in the glory days.
This can be done by either baking VE into Void Form or when the priest is in Void Form there is an aura (much the same as paladin) which gives leech to the raid.

VE should be changed to restore mana instead of HP.
This way we get Void Form as a defensive cooldown, old shadow mechanics and useful support.
A passive version of Vampiric Embrace (that is apart from the actual one) would be nice. 15% (and changed through talents) of the damage dealt returned as healing for allies and self. But considering the damage we do and the mechanics that hinder us, it would still not be sufficient.

Mana returns are also nice, but not as much on M+.
Mana returns are better suited for raids ( though would still be nice to at least get one damned shadow in the raid).

Something that would allow the priest to extend Shadow Form to others would be nice too, like reduced physical damage to allies, but again, that gets baked into Will Power and thus Shadow Form gets to only increase shadow damage (at this point, I don't get the form stacking; why not bake the damage increase into the shadow spec itself and get rid of Ink Form or Shadow form and just stick with one).

As for Void Shroud, I don't know. I miss Guise and I was hoping it gets improved.
Making a mass guise would not do much for the priest (although I'd like it a lot).

And considering the Void stuff and fluff, I am baffled that we are so SLOW when void is all about moving and porting and this and that. How did blizzard think that void/ink priest should be unmovable? Because dots?

TL;DR: I rambled a lot.
agreed
The mana passive would be a nice utility for raids, but then blizzard would just nerf healers, especially disc, around having one or two shadow priests in the raid. This is NOT a good design. It would also do nothing for mythic + competition, for when groups have to decide on bringing a spriest or boom/mage/lock.

Shadow needs shroud, or if not shroud, the aura needs to be heals for damage done, and a cooldown that triples it so it can be used as a minor healing cooldown. The blanket seems OP in a raid, so reduce it to 5 players only and make it a smart heal. This way we have small utility heal blanket in raid, but for mythic + it would be a nice blanket for the entire group. If the raid heal cooldown now seems week, have the cooldown not only triple the healing for damage, but make it raid wide.

The end result would be a strong healing cooldown, about half of a real healers cooldown for raids, and a passive 5 man smart heal blanket baseline. The result in mythic plus would be an added heal blanket with a cooldown. This healing utility would be a strong reason to consider shadow for one or two raid spots, and a viable option for one mythic plus spot, but it wouldn’t be too op. If group needs lust, get that, but if not, drums plus healing is an option, or maybe no shroud but healing, or maybe with spreist and a healer, groups would consider bres less. Basically this would make us a viable option without placing us above the other options. Giving us shroud would do the same, as long as we could cast it while mounted. Again, right now, we are not an option, but this would make us one, but also make it so that we are not so op that we have to be taken all the time, like certain classes are atm. Right now rouges and mages and DH is where it’s at, with a side of boomkin, warlock, and BM hunter. This same type of unique utility needs to happen across the board for classes, or exiting utility needs to be passed around, so we can all be options. We should be able to pick our poison with pros and coms to each class. Right now some classes have all the good and little bad.
11/08/2018 01:39 PMPosted by Bowdiggles
Agreed. The utility that is brought by only one class could be spread around to better fix class balance at this point.


I think a great utility for SPs are a tentacle grasp. It even makes more sense than Gorefiends Grasp. It would give SPs a great M+ utility while also removing some of the OPness from BDK M+ utility.

Other classes also need a summon, it's so dumb that you need a lock just for that QoL ability that has no actual impact on fighting. They already have HS and Gateways which are unique and invaluable utility, they don't also need to have this QoL king as well. Give it to Engineers, they can already use wormholes.

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