Alliance war reparations after SoO?

Story Forum
If they didn't get any not why wasn't it called for before the peace was agreed on?

Generally unless both parties are on equal footing a peace treaty without any demands isn't signed. And no the Darkspear revolutionaries and the rest of the tattered Horde were not on equal terms with the Alliance. If they handwaved away this fact or just made the alliance absolutely stupid in order to agree with a "no reperations" treaty then the Alliance really is a faction led by morons.
Probably because pressing the matter between the two would of resulted in a war of annihilation, Garrosh only had the support of a small part of the population and attacking Thunder Bluff alone over his demands would of taken years of battle.
11/14/2018 09:49 AMPosted by Kalorea
If they didn't get any not why wasn't it called for before the peace was agreed on?

Generally unless both parties are on equal footing a peace treaty without any demands isn't signed. And no the Darkspear revolutionaries and the rest of the tattered Horde were not on equal terms with the Alliance. If they handwaved away this fact or just made the alliance absolutely stupid in order to agree with a "no reperations" treaty then the Alliance really is a faction led by morons.


Because the flat out truth is without the Darkspear rebels, AND Saurfang, the Alliance would have been cooling it's heels instead of taking Orgrimmar. Trying for a post war humiliation would have reunited ALL of the Horde against you.
It was a great deal for the alliance, horde only controlled Durator, northern barrens and mulgore. Horde can’t even go from one capital City to another without the alliance blocking their way.

They didn’t announce it forumally probely because they didn’t want the horde player to feel like !@#$ until the next faction war.

But the horde was in a bad spot. And the last book mentioned that Varian knew if alliance continued the war it would of depleted it self in the process along with destroying the horde. He didn’t dismental the horde because it would of destroyed the alliance in process.
The war reparations were that the Horde got to keep the lands in Kalimdor they'd taken from the night elves, that land being Stonetalon and Azshara. Since this basically solved that 'lumber problem' they'd had for years, in exchange they pulled their forces out of Ashenvale. This was just never reflected in the game.

In fact, per the novellas, it seems that the Horde never actually fully honored that agreement anyway, as the Horde base near Blackfathom was still staffed with a skeleton crew of soldiers, and immediately prepared for war once Sylvanas told them to make ready.

So, uh... we really showed them, guys.
11/14/2018 10:01 AMPosted by Arlessa
11/14/2018 09:49 AMPosted by Kalorea
If they didn't get any not why wasn't it called for before the peace was agreed on?

Generally unless both parties are on equal footing a peace treaty without any demands isn't signed. And no the Darkspear revolutionaries and the rest of the tattered Horde were not on equal terms with the Alliance. If they handwaved away this fact or just made the alliance absolutely stupid in order to agree with a "no reperations" treaty then the Alliance really is a faction led by morons.


Because the flat out truth is without the Darkspear rebels, AND Saurfang, the Alliance would have been cooling it's heels instead of taking Orgrimmar. Trying for a post war humiliation would have reunited ALL of the Horde against you.


The Alliance didn't have to help the rebels free their own city. They could have laid seige and starved them, rebels included.

The Alliance was in a position of military strength so it was moronic to accept peace with no gauruntees and reparations.
11/14/2018 10:03 AMPosted by Nekkar
It was a great deal for the alliance, horde only controlled Durator, northern barrens and mulgore. Horde can’t even go from one capital City to another without the alliance blocking their way.

They didn’t announce it forumally probely because they didn’t want the horde player to feel like !@#$ until the next faction war.

But the horde was in a bad spot. And the last book mentioned that Varian knew if alliance continued the war it would of depleted it self in the process along with destroying the horde. He didn’t dismental the horde because it would of destroyed the alliance in process.


It was a pathetic book that was written to make it look like they were equal when they weren't. Warcraft lorebooks are very inconsistent with the own games lore these days.
11/14/2018 10:05 AMPosted by Kalorea
11/14/2018 10:01 AMPosted by Arlessa
...

Because the flat out truth is without the Darkspear rebels, AND Saurfang, the Alliance would have been cooling it's heels instead of taking Orgrimmar. Trying for a post war humiliation would have reunited ALL of the Horde against you.


The Alliance didn't have to help the rebels free their own city. They could have laid seige and starved them, rebels included.

The Alliance was in a position of military strength so it was moronic to accept peace with no gauruntees and reparations.


Why wouldn't the rebels just attack the Alliance and take them down as well then? They weren't in the city, Sylvanas had an entire fleet on the shoreline, they weren't starving, and whatever Garrosh was doing was going to turn the outside of Org into an old god infested hell.
11/14/2018 09:59 AMPosted by Darethy
Probably because pressing the matter between the two would of resulted in a war of annihilation, Garrosh only had the support of a small part of the population and attacking Thunder Bluff alone over his demands would of taken years of battle.


Or in realistic terms it would have resulted in an unconditional surrender and complete destruction of the Horde polity. But since this is also a video game with two factions we can't have that.

What we could have had was some realistic reparations.
11/14/2018 10:08 AMPosted by Darethy
11/14/2018 10:05 AMPosted by Kalorea
...

The Alliance didn't have to help the rebels free their own city. They could have laid seige and starved them, rebels included.

The Alliance was in a position of military strength so it was moronic to accept peace with no gauruntees and reparations.


Why wouldn't the rebels just attack the Alliance and take them down as well then? They weren't in the city, Sylvanas had an entire fleet on the shoreline, they weren't starving, and whatever Garrosh was doing was going to turn the outside of Org into an old god infested hell.


How could they? It's very unlikely that would have worked when the rebels themselves were in a position of weakness while the Alliance military had complete control of the surrounding area.
Because, at that point, for all his atrocity, Garrosh had bottled up the conflict. He had withdrawn back to Orgrimmar, trying to concentrate his opponents in one place to destroy them there.

With Garrosh's defeat, at the hands of both the Horde and Alliance, Varian would know he could either drag out a battle against a Horde spread across the globe, shedding incredible amounts of blood on both sides, or he could salvage what he could, and use the time to rebuild and strengthen- rebuilding Northwatch, etc.

Of course, there's the mechanical reality of things as well. The Horde kept its gains during the Cata fighting because that was zone rebalancing, to even out the number of leveling zones that were largely quest exclusive to one faction or the other. So, while it feels like, from the Alliance perspective, the Horde punched them in the face throughout Cata, dumped the blame on Garrosh, and kept everything they took, the reasoning for that is rooted in the mechanics of the Cata zone rebalancing.

Not that it excuses the unfinished content or the Gilneas abandonment.
11/14/2018 10:09 AMPosted by Kalorea
11/14/2018 10:08 AMPosted by Darethy
...

Why wouldn't the rebels just attack the Alliance and take them down as well then? They weren't in the city, Sylvanas had an entire fleet on the shoreline, they weren't starving, and whatever Garrosh was doing was going to turn the outside of Org into an old god infested hell.


How could they? It's very unlikely that would have worked when the rebels themselves were in a position of weakness while the Alliance military had complete control of the surrounding area.


They didn't have complete control of the surrounding area tho, in fact they had visibly no control over Razor Hill, Echo isles, and were in striking range of the Hordes fleet from the docks.

Did you think the entire Alliance army just magically appeared in front of Org?
11/14/2018 09:49 AMPosted by Kalorea
If they didn't get any not why wasn't it called for before the peace was agreed on?

Generally unless both parties are on equal footing a peace treaty without any demands isn't signed. And no the Darkspear revolutionaries and the rest of the tattered Horde were not on equal terms with the Alliance. If they handwaved away this fact or just made the alliance absolutely stupid in order to agree with a "no reperations" treaty then the Alliance really is a faction led by morons.


They had defeated the guy who had done it and had even and agreement to put him on trial for his life.

Now they could have turned on a guy who had oppose Garrosh and fought with them to overthrow him, after all Jaina wanted to murder people in a parley to do so. But in the end that would have been just what they could have squeezed out of the Horde, or just for a chance to kill Horde, and I guess Varian actually thought about the people on both sides who would have died by making the war to total victory.
11/14/2018 09:49 AMPosted by Kalorea
If they didn't get any not why wasn't it called for before the peace was agreed on?

Generally unless both parties are on equal footing a peace treaty without any demands isn't signed. And no the Darkspear revolutionaries and the rest of the tattered Horde were not on equal terms with the Alliance. If they handwaved away this fact or just made the alliance absolutely stupid in order to agree with a "no reperations" treaty then the Alliance really is a faction led by morons.


The dreaded finger wagging storytelling sighhh. I also like how everything was Garrosh's fault.

The concepts suck, especially in that instance
11/14/2018 10:05 AMPosted by Kalorea
11/14/2018 10:01 AMPosted by Arlessa
...

Because the flat out truth is without the Darkspear rebels, AND Saurfang, the Alliance would have been cooling it's heels instead of taking Orgrimmar. Trying for a post war humiliation would have reunited ALL of the Horde against you.


The Alliance didn't have to help the rebels free their own city. They could have laid seige and starved them, rebels included.

The Alliance was in a position of military strength so it was moronic to accept peace with no gauruntees and reparations.


When you have portals, seiges don't work as well.

Even Wrathion, who wanted the war to continue, felt he had to admit that taking Thunder Bluff would be a blood bath.
Blizzard was actually very sneaky about this, and I really do think that they tend to go all in with certain things when it comes to the faction war stuff without realizing how it makes one of the factions look, before immediately trying to backpedal. Cataclysm is an excellent example of this, particularly the things that happened in Kalimdor.

They shifted the blame of things from the Horde to Garrosh, made him the big bad, and managing to blur the fact that the Horde was portrayed as supporting him in pretty much all media right up until he turned on them. I'm not talking about Vol'jin making vague threats, or Saurfang making empty ones, I'm talking about every conflict up until we got to the Horde rebellion, which was only started because the Horde races realized he was now turning against them. If he hadn't, it's very likely that things would have continued as before.

But it did work, everyone blames Garrosh and his 'small group of supporters' for everything that happened, and in doing so managed to escape any consequences, other than the self-inflicted ones.

And this is happening in the Blood War with Sylvanas as well, with the framing of the narrative, and will result in the exact same outcome. I honestly do think that the writers just get carried away with the 'omg that's so metal' mindset, and then remember 'wait, Horde are supposed to be the good guys' and then pin it on Sylvanas.
The only actual agreement post Cataclysm War was Horde packing it and getting out of Ashenvale. They were apparently allowed to keep whatever bases across the Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor.

And as people have also noted, it was incredibly dumb of the Alliance to not force an end to the war that actually favored them considering the position of power they were in.

However, because they couldn't end the war making Horde players feel like they've lost or worse, subservient to the Alliance, made the end of the war more even. Horde keeps what they conquered, but have to promise not to attack the Alliance again. Alliance I guess just get to stop fighting and wait for the next war.
11/14/2018 10:22 AMPosted by Aureton
They shifted the blame of things from the Horde to Garrosh, made him the big bad, and managing to blur the fact that the Horde was portrayed as supporting him in pretty much all media right up until he turned on them.


That was funny as hell lol.

"There are those of among you who help fight Garrosh, for that I'm willing to end the bloodshed" - Varian

Horde :
/cast halo
/innocentface
Haha that's funny... that's funny.

Alliance Reperations.. ha...
- Gave the entirety of Azshara to the Horde
- Requested force withdrawl from Ashenvale (Which never happened.)
- Blamed Garrosh for the horrors caused and all was forgiven.
- No established ground made in Gilneas
- No established ground made in the ruins of Theramore

The Alliance got nothing, and even gave up more to the Horde than gained. Because Blizzard can't be bothered to make the Alliance believable.
11/14/2018 10:22 AMPosted by Aureton
Blizzard was actually very sneaky about this, and I really do think that they tend to go all in with certain things when it comes to the faction war stuff without realizing how it makes one of the factions look, before immediately trying to backpedal. Cataclysm is an excellent example of this, particularly the things that happened in Kalimdor.

They shifted the blame of things from the Horde to Garrosh, made him the big bad, and managing to blur the fact that the Horde was portrayed as supporting him in pretty much all media right up until he turned on them. I'm not talking about Vol'jin making vague threats, or Saurfang making empty ones, I'm talking about every conflict up until we got to the Horde rebellion, which was only started because the Horde races realized he was now turning against them. If he hadn't, it's very likely that things would have continued as before.

But it did work, everyone blames Garrosh and his 'small group of supporters' for everything that happened, and in doing so managed to escape any consequences, other than the self-inflicted ones.

And this is happening in the Blood War with Sylvanas as well, with the framing of the narrative, and will result in the exact same outcome. I honestly do think that the writers just get carried away with the 'omg that's so metal' mindset, and then remember 'wait, Horde are supposed to be the good guys' and then pin it on Sylvanas.


Garrosh and Sylvanas get blame for the things that they, in fact, did.

Now if you want reparations for simply being at war with the Alliance, well we are still waiting for reparations for the Alliance fighting us.

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