When did this community become so toxic?

General Discussion
People get ‘toxic’ when they pay good money for garbage. Happens all day every day all around the world.
somewhere around nov 3, 2004.

White Knighting at it's finest. Remember the game doesn't suck, it's just how MMORPG's have always been. It's not blizzard guys! It's us who have changed. The only toxic people on the forums are the blissfully ignorant white knights who literally lie about the game being good.


Your use of the term "White Knighting" just shows your political colors, I'm surprised you didn't use "snowflakes" in the same paragraph.
Negative opinions =/= toxicity

Threats of any kind against game developers IS MOST DEFINITELY toxic behavior, but the two are not linked.

Just to set the record straight since some people have trouble differentiating between the two.
10/14/2018 11:52 AMPosted by Warstrike
People get ‘toxic’ when they pay good money for garbage. Happens all day every day all around the world.


People get toxic because they are people or because they are on the Internet where there are no immediate consequences for their toxicity.
I think as long as it is "being worked on" you are going to have very vocal people complaining. Why? Because they are playing on what they are given and not what they are working on. Some of these same vocal customers bring up the fact that they had voiced their complaints back in beta when it was still "being worked on". Blizzard is going to have to show those people that they can do something about the state the game is in first place before "being worked on" is acceptable.

A bunch of that is assumptions because I am not in that group, unless you count my dislike of azerite being everywhere, but I do read a lot of their posts.

The things that I read about that are not fun or people hate seem to be pretty ingrained into these expansion. I really don't see how a simple tweak here or there is going to make a difference.

It does seem to me that they scrapped the things that worked out pretty well in Legion and replaced it with stuff doesn't work so well. While I applaud Blizzard for taking chances and trying something new, I don't see how some of this stuff ever made it out of a committee.

I write small games as one of my hobbies, and I realize it is not the same thing, but I prototype each game idea that I have. If the core of the game is not fun then I scrape it. I have a belief that if the core isn't fun, no amount of work on my part is going to make it fun. It was simply a bad idea. Azerite, The Heart of Azertoth, and other things were bad ideas.
10/14/2018 11:54 AMPosted by Tartarkin
Negative opinions =/= toxicity

Threats of any kind against game developers IS MOST DEFINITELY toxic behavior, but the two are not linked.

Just to set the record straight since some people have trouble differentiating between the two.


This is true, criticism and negative reactions to something in the game aren't inherently toxic but that usually doesn't describe criticism and negative reactions in GD.
10/14/2018 11:17 AMPosted by Gurgles
Playing WoW is like watching a family member fall into alcoholism or adiction.

You love them, but at the same time you want to punch them in the face


Punching is bad. Unless it's fruit punching.
Wow isn't that toxic
Are there very toxic ppl here?? Yup

But in the bigger picture not much
10/14/2018 11:54 AMPosted by Actasanc

White Knighting at it's finest. Remember the game doesn't suck, it's just how MMORPG's have always been. It's not blizzard guys! It's us who have changed. The only toxic people on the forums are the blissfully ignorant white knights who literally lie about the game being good.


Your use of the term "White Knighting" just shows your political colors, I'm surprised you didn't use "snowflakes" in the same paragraph.
It has nothing to do with politics at all. It has to do with shamelessly defending something that you admit isn't good but has ongoing development.

"The system isn't the best but at least they're working on it!!!" like buddy, that should never have been released in a state like that. Never in a million years should have been released in the state that it is.

Blizzard from 30 years ago to 5 years ago wouldn't have released it in a state like that. more than 300 changes to the system in two months. That is something that the development team should be completely embarrassed by. It should be a wakeup call to the team that they need to use critical thinking skills, as well as active quality control when they completely redesign systems that have been in place for 14 years.

I'm embarrassed for the development team over Azerite gear. I don't know how they can honestly talk like they're proud of it.
It became “toxic” when you became more sensitive.

This is one of the least toxic gaming communities I’ve been in. Feedback and criticism is not toxicity. If you can’t handle reading criticism on your favorite game, that’s your own problem. All I see are people who love the game and want to see it be what it can be.
10/14/2018 11:23 AMPosted by Ooga
10/14/2018 11:21 AMPosted by Astodam
the state of this community is a direct response to the state of the game

Usually this. People actually want to have fun playing the game.

We play this game for long time and we are not happy with the state of the game NOW.
Plus you are missing a point, the game is a SERVICE and we are customers, we pay for it and have all the right to complain. The customers service in wow used to be good, but now they seems to ignore the feedback.
in vanilla
I really don't think it's all that toxic. A bit dramatic and negative, sure. People complaining does not automatically make it a toxic environment. People attacking each other over personal opinions can.
About 5 minutes after arenas were added to the game.

That's when the flood of FPS garbage joined the game and with them came the wave of Epeen flexing and trash talking you see in those types of games.
2004
It's hard to pin-point the exact date where things went awry.

But in all honesty, the seeds of most of the game's issues were laid down during WotLK:
  • The introduction of the LFG queue system for dungeons, and all it's subsequent derivatives (which includes LFR). The simple fact you didn't have to talk to people when forming a group has led to people not talking in dungeons... at which point the collapse of the game's community probably became an inevitably.
  • The Gearscore add-on was created. This is a long-term issue created by the community, perhaps started as something rather innocent as someone wanted an easy way to sift through a mountain of candidates looking to get into their group. Blizz pretty much nullified the add-on... but making item level on gear visible, making it entirely unnecessary. But still, the fact this add-on came into existence started the community's slow descent to judging itself (and others) based solely on some arbitrary metric. This attitude has persisted throughout the game ever since then, and is probably impossible to remove at this point.
  • AoE tanking for all tanks.This is something that actually started in TBC, with prot pallies being surprisingly good AoE tanks (possibly unintentionally)... something pretty much unheard of before. WotLK made this possible for all tanks, but didn't really go overboard with the threat modifiers... but it was the start of things becoming over-simplified with brute-force tactics and mass damage being favoured over specific strategies like marking and CC while taking down mobs in a specific order.
  • The start of too much gear progession. This is something which slipped under the radar, but in retrospect, probably what ended up damning the game long-term. With multiple raid difficulties came multiple qualities of gear, three for this particular expansion: 10-man gear, 10-man heroic = 25-man normal, 25-man heroic. Needless to say, item levels SOARED with each tier. Instead of a nominal 13 item level jump being raid tiers, you have the same jump between DIFFICULTIES... followed by an even larger increase between tiers. This led to raiders getting too far ahead of more casual players in terms of power progression... which meant the necessity of catch-up gear... which just made the whole stat-inflation situation WORSE.


At first, none of these issues were all that bad... in fact, they were arguably beneficial (with the exception of Gearscore, which was mocked by the community at the time and even Blizz themselves during an April Fool's joke).

But over time, these issues just led to the game's community slowly falling apart. Not sure if they contributed to WotLK being the "peak" of the game's population (as far as we know), with the drop-off in the community starting because they were introduced... and probably with the death of Arthas, quite a few players had fulfilled "their goal" as it was set-up during Warcraft III and it's expansion.

But the change was slow and progressive.
Most people probably didn't notice it...
... until FFXIV came around.

The "A Realm Reborn" phase in particular, the initial launch of the game was quite terrible... but it seems WoW had finally gained a legitimate competitor with FFXIV:ARR.

So why exactly would the existence of another game serve as the point where people noticed how bad the community had gotten?

We finally had a solid counterpoint, a game with a better community and reminiscent of how WoW's community used to be.

The realization was quite slow, but word slowly crept into WoW. All other details aside, for some reason most people weren't jerks in FFXIV; the odd one here and there as usual, but for the most part you weren't treated like a tool to be used by other players and they actually did try to help you.

With the realization of how bad things in the community had gotten, the issues with the game in general started to magnify and the complaining has gotten more vicious; it's just ranting and raving at this point.

Strangely enough, I've noticed a couple of "cracks" in FFXIV's community over the past while (more a "gut feeling" than anything else)... perhaps it's just the strain of content droughts, or maybe it's just me actually trying out the endgame there for once. But for the most part, people are still courteous and genuinely helpful; there's always a steady influx of new players, not just alts of grumpy veterans.

... but for right now, the community there is FAR better than WoW is.
Not perfect by any means, but not this steaming pile of human refuse.
From day one.
Tldr: Feedback of any kind is toxic and you should enjoy whatever is put in front of you at all costs or else youre a horrible person.

Is thats basically the gist of this thread?
I think WoW has one of the worst fanbase of any entertainment product.

Except maybe for Juggalos.

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