Spoilers: Sylv plans for Derek Revealed

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10/18/2018 05:00 AMPosted by Tewdee
10/18/2018 02:17 AMPosted by Shadestalkër
Absolutely no mind control needed to get one to murder their entire family. MKultra was just suggestions. Afterall, anyone can manchurian candidate murdering their mother if they simply hear the right phrase. This is just amazing writting.


I'm not sure if you're being serious or if you're trolling.


*Leans in* *Whispers* It's trolling.
Blizz is going about this all wrong. They really should listen to my suggestions.

Put

Derek

In

A

Cannon.

Shoot

Him

At

Jaina!


That's how you win the faction war.
10/17/2018 11:49 PMPosted by Jerrod
Freewill is not compatible with brainwashing. If you have to condition someone to do as you command then they aren't doing it of their own free will. Good bye cornerstone of Forsaken story, you technically died in cataclysm, but I don't have to humor apologists anymore.


Not entirely sure where you get the idea that conditioning someone to do what you command isn't compatible with free will. Its what every military does already. Its what combat training is, and what it has been for thousands of years. You don't pick up some Joe off the street and say, "Hey, I want you to infiltrate a city, kill these people who are arbitrarily your enemy, and then maybe get out of there alive." People just don't do that. That goes for Forsaken, for humans, for tauren, for dwarves. It is not instinctual, its conditioned, its trained. Even if you're a staunch Freudian. No one forces you to do that, you are trained to do that. Unless of course you consider military/combat training brain washing, then we have a different conversation.

From a purely philosophical stand point, since anything Forsaken now always nose dives and crashes into this free will argument, no one has free will. No one has complete agency. All act and exist within existing societal structures. Again from the Forsaken to the tauren to the dwarves, all act within their existing structures.

But what am I even trying for any more? I shouldn't humor half blind dogs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm_GPkOfVKI

This has been very relevant for 8.1.
10/17/2018 04:17 PMPosted by Ariël
Devs are desperately trying to destroy Sylvanas image for the Horde players still refusing Camp Saurfang I see...
Blizz doesn't seem to get that a large portion of Horde players are just straight up okay playing as badguys. So no amount of making Sylvanas evil is going to actually bother them.
10/18/2018 07:55 AMPosted by Vespero
10/17/2018 04:17 PMPosted by Ariël
Devs are desperately trying to destroy Sylvanas image for the Horde players still refusing Camp Saurfang I see...
Blizz doesn't seem to get that a large portion of Horde players are just straight up okay playing as badguys. So no amount of making Sylvanas evil is going to actually bother them.


Honestly, my current Horde political stance is "I will accept literally anything if it saves me from HONORABLE SAVAGE leadership."

Sylvanas can spend the entire expansion burning down puppy orphanages - I'll decry it as !@#$ty storytelling all day long, but it's still preferable to a condescending Saurfang lecturing us about his HONOR.
10/18/2018 07:17 AMPosted by Abrahof
Not entirely sure where you get the idea that conditioning someone to do what you command isn't compatible with free will. Its what every military does already. Its what combat training is, and what it has been for thousands of years. You don't pick up some Joe off the street and say, "Hey, I want you to infiltrate a city, kill these people who are arbitrarily your enemy, and then maybe get out of there alive." People just don't do that. That goes for Forsaken, for humans, for tauren, for dwarves. It is not instinctual, its conditioned, its trained. Even if you're a staunch Freudian. No one forces you to do that, you are trained to do that. Unless of course you consider military/combat training brain washing, then we have a different conversation.
What you described is LITERALLY brainwashing.

Any mental conditioning that causes you to do something you wouldn't have done without it is, on some level, brainwashing.

The argument to be made there is whether brainwashing soldiers is a useful/responsible thing to do.
This is pretty interesting actually. I wondered how Sylvannas was going to condition Derek to do her bidding. I always thought she'd manipulate him by saying something along the lines of "if you kill your entire family I can raise them into undeath with you so you won't be alone anymore" since Derek upon being raised mentions how he feels alone and he asks for his family.
I guess I'll drop a semi-serious post in here regarding the Forsaken and Freewill while I'm still around (3 weeks left, baby!) Anyway, I don't actually think Derek and his brainwashing does much to damage the idea of "Forsaken Free Will". Mainly because the idea of "Forsaken Free Will" has always been a hypocritical one.

I think one of the largest problems when it comes to observing the Forsaken and their supposedly "cornerstone" of Free Will is the assumption that they value ALL free will. But any casual glance at any Forsaken leveling area will prove this false. The Forsaken have no qualms imprisoning/enslaving their enemies. Even back in Vanilla most people were familiar with Theresa the Mind Slave walking around UC.

Ever since that largely debated CDev post, this is how I've always viewed it. Forsaken do value free will, but only as it pertains to themselves. If you aren't Forsaken, they don't give a flying femur about your free will.

It's super hypocritical. But that's how I've always seen it. To me, Derek's fate doesn't hurt this idea of free will because Derek isn't Forsaken.

It's super messed up, because that still means all they need to do to justify stripping your will away is to decide you're not actually Forsaken. And we don't exactly have a set of criteria on what makes an Undead actually Forsaken.

Was Koltira a Forsaken when Sylvanas dumped him in her play room? Did he lose his right to "be Forsaken" when he flubbed the Andorhal operation? Personally, I don't care much cause I never liked the git. But still, it's data we can use to parse how it all works.

Any way, in short, Forsaken do value free will, but are stupid big hypocrites about it. They're all part of a club, and every member of that club has free will. You can even argue that those who left the club at a later time still retain this right (Since we know Forsaken are allowed to leave).

But if you aren't in the club, be prepared to have your brain stabbed until eating orphans sounds like a great idea.
10/18/2018 08:10 AMPosted by Vespero
What you described is LITERALLY brainwashing.

Any mental conditioning that causes you to do something you wouldn't have done without it is, on some level, brainwashing.


Persuasion, conditioning, coercion, "brainwashing" are all at some level manipulation of the mind. Lets remember the term "brainwashing" comes straight out of the Red Scare. From its creation it had negative connotations meant to spark this image of forced manipulation into complete subservience. That anyone that thought outside of the 'norm' was brainwashed.

What we see here, and it was explicit in its wording, is that there will be some conditioning that goes on. Conditioning is molding behavior to fit ones wants/needs. Sylvanas needs him to be, presumably, an assassin. She conditions him into a Forsaken Assassin, creating a new identity in which he has a degree of autonomy in the process, from a Kul'tirian Sailor. Any sailor needs to be conditioned and trained in that way. You don't go from swabbing the poop deck to SEAL Team 6 over night.

Everyone looks to magical mind control and brainwashing rather than psychological changes one experiences going into undeath.
Abrahof, that is complete nonsense, they're blatantly making it clear sylv is talking around mind controlling him.
Then they should have put into text, "We'll mind control him into doing X with Y"

Otherwise, its not mind control as is being assumed. What I got is that it is persuasion, conditioning. We go with what we are presented, and we are not presented with mind control, to apparently everyone's dismay
Depending on who is there I have to wonder if it is a bluff especially if Baine is present.
10/18/2018 09:44 AMPosted by Xoroth
Depending on who is there I have to wonder if it is a bluff especially if Baine is present.
Baine's there when Derek's reanimated. He calls it an atrocity, says there's no honor in it, and storms out of the room. Afterwards he says that Sylvanas has to be stopped.
10/18/2018 09:21 AMPosted by Abrahof
Then they should have put into text, "We'll mind control him into doing X with Y"

Otherwise, its not mind control as is being assumed. What I got is that it is persuasion, conditioning. We go with what we are presented, and we are not presented with mind control, to apparently everyone's dismay


Is Cdev really trolling the lore fan base by never ever ever calling it mind control.
Maybe the cornerstone of the forsaken is free will but the actuality is it never existed to begin with. The truth is that Sylvanas has always used free will to manipulate the forsaken into following her. This cherished belief of the forsaken is nothing more than a carrot on a stick. As we have already been shown, there are consequences for those who reject the Banshee Queen.
10/18/2018 09:21 AMPosted by Abrahof
Then they should have put into text, "We'll mind control him into doing X with Y"

Otherwise, its not mind control as is being assumed. What I got is that it is persuasion, conditioning. We go with what we are presented, and we are not presented with mind control, to apparently everyone's dismay


"It's not mind control, we're just forcing him to do something he wouldn't otherwise do."

lol, that's really the argument you're going with?
MCing/"conditioning"/whathaveyou for Derek shouldn't be shocking at all. People going "wow look at that mc xdxd" are lunatics; just because it explicitly is stated to happen once for a specific person for a specific reason doesn't set itself as the precedent for all forsaken.

I look forward to him blowing up or something once he goes back to his family!
Murder? No no comrades. Jaina was not murdered! She slipped down the stairs on a patch of ice she left in her wake, and accidentally fell on his cooking utensils. He was baking her a Funnel Cake to celebrate his return!

-hides the book on "How to serve Man"-
no no, you see, brainwashing is just conditioning someone to think how you want them to think and react to specific stimuli. it's not the same thing as mind control because that uses magic.

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