Spoilers: Sylv plans for Derek Revealed

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So we get more “Totally Not Mind Control” from the horde and some generic run of the mill death squads for alliance.

Can the writing be any more terrible?
10/17/2018 11:10 PMPosted by Fincarn
I am well aware.

I meant on the context of the wider narrative, if we belived that undeath turned you into a dark version of your previous self then all the contradictions on 8.1 would be neatly resolved, but the one piece of Lore that prevents that is BtS, that claims there are hundreds of undead that have normal personalities.


Remember Blackmoore? Remember the Narcissist Paladins who act all self righteous in Knaak's stories? The people of Lordaeron were always divided between Cluster Bs(Anti Socials, Sociopaths, Psychopaths, Borderlines, Histrionics and Narcissists) and Normals!
So this is how Katherine goes...? How tragic for the Proudmoore family. :(
10/18/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Yvenathilm
Remember Blackmoore? Remember the Narcissist Paladins who act all self righteous in Knaak's stories? The people of Lordaeron were always divided between Cluster Bs(Anti Socials, Sociopaths, Psychopaths, Borderlines, Histrionics and Narcissists) and Normals!
Remember Dreadmoore?
10/17/2018 07:35 PMPosted by Lena
Forsaken totally have free will guys! No mind control involved. Sylvanas is definitely not the Lich King.

I thought we established she was the Lich Queen back in Silverpine Forest lmao, no idea how people are still confused about this.
10/18/2018 03:35 PMPosted by Lena
"It's not mind control, we're just forcing him to do something he wouldn't otherwise do."

lol, that's really the argument you're going with?


Then tell me what mind control is to you? Is it a channeled priest spell? Is it a 6 month long training regiment? Because that's not an argument. We have language and specific terminology to describe different concepts for this very reason, no matter how minor.

The wording use was condition. Not train, not force, not brainwash, condition.
10/19/2018 11:31 AMPosted by Abrahof
10/18/2018 03:35 PMPosted by Lena
"It's not mind control, we're just forcing him to do something he wouldn't otherwise do."

lol, that's really the argument you're going with?


Then tell me what mind control is to you? Is it a channeled priest spell? Is it a 6 month long training regiment? Because that's not an argument. We have language and specific terminology to describe different concepts for this very reason, no matter how minor.

The wording use was condition. Not train, not force, not brainwash, condition.


So, mental condition is a form of brainwashing. It involves shaping a person's cognition and beliefs to view the world a specific way. This is not some ham handed idea of subliminal messaging or torture, but rather more akin to instances like stockholm syndrome or long term captivity/conversion. It is still ABSOLUTELY manipulative and is designed to alter/manipulate a person to completely reshape their own sense of identity, morality, and even emotional attachments to various people.

This runs into an issue of "free will" because a person who does not understand what is transpiring, especially in an emotionally traumatic state such as Derek is portrayed as, can not consent. It is a version of emotional abuse and predation that quite frankly makes the idea of "free will" moot.

Free will is meaningless without a person to be able to determine their own preferences, beliefs, and values free from the directed, targeted manipulation of a specific individual or group. This is why the access to information, freedom of the press, and other concepts irl that are derived from the enlightenment are so important.
10/19/2018 11:43 AMPosted by Saiphas
It is still ABSOLUTELY manipulative and is designed to alter/manipulate a person to completely reshape their own sense of identity, morality, and even emotional attachments to various people.


I just want to stop it here for a moment. I'm not arguing that it isn't on some level not manipulative. Coercion is manipulative in nature. However changing the word choice from being coerced or persuaded into doing something like brainwashing brings in a different connotation. Brainwashing invokes this sense of an over the top oppressive force that needs to cleanse your mind of any previous thought. Persuasion or coercion suggests it is subversive. It suggests that there is a degree of autonomy, free will, in how that final agreement is reached. Be it agreeing to have a doughnut while on a diet, or assassinating your family for no good reason.

10/19/2018 11:43 AMPosted by Saiphas
This runs into an issue of "free will" because a person who does not understand what is transpiring, especially in an emotionally traumatic state such as Derek is portrayed as, can not consent. It is a version of emotional abuse and predation that quite frankly makes the idea of "free will" moot.


Then we can say its non-consensual, we can say its manipulative especially during a time of distress, but it is not the heavy handed mind control, brainwashing, etc. that this forum likes to jump to. The Forsaken value free will, they have free will. We can argue to what degree they have free will however. That is a good argument. The single most differentiating feature is that the Helm of Damnation, or whatever other tool, cannot oppress their conscious thoughts and feelings to do whatever the master wishes.

10/19/2018 11:43 AMPosted by Saiphas
Free will is meaningless without a person to be able to determine their own preferences, beliefs, and values free from the directed, targeted manipulation of a specific individual or group. This is why the access to information, freedom of the press, and other concepts irl that are derived from the enlightenment are so important.


However, and this is more for fun, what do you say to the person that conception of free will is false? That no one has free will, no one has agency or freedom, that we all act within the confines of our society? That we act within a prison and self police ourselves to act in a particular way deemed worthy to ruling classes? That if we do not conform to those concepts, those expectations, we are taken out of society to be reintegrated in a way that is useful to the ruling classes? To those with the power?

What does Stormwind do when the Mason's Guild strikes and protests? What does Silvermoon do to its dissidents? What do the Forsaken do to those raised? What do the tauren do to those wanting violence? What do the Night Elves do to those still interested in the arcane? They all, almost without question, are imprisoned and released with the assumption of being compliant, or they are killed, exiled, or indefinitely imprisoned to mitigate the risk.
I'm saving all these "not ACKSHUALLY mind control" posts for when the Alliance starts forcefully Lightforging Horde soldiers.

What does Stormwind do when the Mason's Guild strikes and protests


The King himself offers to personally settle the debt from his own coffers?
https://youtu.be/mgiu0VZP2tM

Sylvanas literally plans to "condition" Dereks mind and have him assassinate the rest of his family


Ooo finally things got more interesting.

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