The importance of class design.

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
10/26/2018 06:59 AMPosted by Vindecaytor
A very good example of this is Black Desert Online, a game with many many downsides and issues. But it's solely carried by few things: Its graphics, proffession/life skill systems AND its extremely fun, fast paced and skill intensive combat.
I myself played it for almost 6000 hours solely for the learning experience of my class and PvP. This just goes to show how important class design is.


I only have 2000 hours in Black Desert Online. What I missed most was grouped-based dungeons and raids content.

Still, the classes and combat system are so much more fun that the garbage we have in BFA.
11/04/2018 04:15 PMPosted by Grianstad
I only have 2000 hours in Black Desert Online.

pf, casual ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I miss playing a CLASS and not just a limited Spec.
11/05/2018 06:15 PMPosted by Zanmatø
I miss playing a CLASS and not just a limited Spec.

Tell me about it... mage's baseline toolkit pretty much only consists of food, portals, blink and sheep. There's no more Shatter/Deep Freeze baseline or multiple schools of damaging abilities. When you pick a spec as a mage, you're essentially playing a different class.
Food and portals, aka utility machine, this is what mage's CLASS fantasy has become.
Great post. Blizzard is not blind and I’m sure they understand that the biggest problem with the game right now has to do with class to sign. I guess were there feeling is understanding HOW to actually fix it.
Solid post.

Some of the problem could be alleviated by making most of the talent abilities, base. Why is Shadow Word: Death now a talent? Why can a druid only talent for a certain hybrid? A lot of cool abilities have come and gone over the expansions, bring some of them back. Let talents only augment base abilities instead of giving them, allowing you to have more customisation over the styles of play you want. I like how Demonic and Momentum augment different abilities to offer different playstyles. I hate having to choose between two iconic class abilities.

And classes should be like they were. Having access to spells and abilities across different specialisations, and specs enhancing certain key abilities that encapsulate the ideologies of that spec.

There should be more complexity that takes time and practice to master.
PvP has never been this shallow and violently unbalanced, and the "difficulty" of PvE comes exclusively from having a bunch of twitch "mechanics" and timers to look at, because combat itself and character building have been watered down to absurd levels.

To fix this mess, Blizzard would need to either backpedal a lot, or to reinvent the whole thing (again), but this time looking at how things worked (and why they worked) when the game was still playable.

"Casuals" aren't some braindead zombies who can't handle anything more complex than pressing two buttons to blow everything up. They also want to have fun, and fun comes from having solid class design, combat, mechanics, character customization and also many opportunities to do something unexpected and interesting, to show your skill and surprise other players, something that's impossible now.
11/07/2018 11:56 PMPosted by Carrots
Let talents only augment base abilities instead of giving them, allowing you to have more customisation over the styles of play you want. I like how Demonic and Momentum augment different abilities to offer different playstyles. I hate having to choose between two iconic class abilities.

Indeed. Rogue talents for example have some very good rows, where you choose between Damage, Energy or Combo Points generation. All of these increase your damage and one of them is going to come on top after simming, but if they are well balanced it allows you to pick the playstyle you prefer.
11/07/2018 11:56 PMPosted by Carrots
Some of the problem could be alleviated by making most of the talent abilities, base. Why is Shadow Word: Death now a talent? Why can a druid only talent for a certain hybrid? A lot of cool abilities have come and gone over the expansions, bring some of them back. Let talents only augment base abilities instead of giving them, allowing you to have more customisation over the styles of play you want. I like how Demonic and Momentum augment different abilities to offer different playstyles. I hate having to choose between two iconic class abilities.


Yes and no, and I'm glad you brought up shadow word death, because it means we can talk about the other shadow talents currently.

If we gave shadow every ability it had in its talents baseline it would gain.

2nd Charge of Mind Blast.
Dark Void.
Shadow Crash.
Shadow Word: Death.
Void Torrent.
Mindbender (Somehow, because it currently replaces shadowfiend).
Dark Ascension.
Surrender To Madness.

Some of those, namely SW:D and the 2nd Blast charge would be good to see baseline, given a few tweaks. The others though? Not so much.

Shadow's talents are mainly designed to fix problems the spec shouldn't even have in the first place. No baseline aoe? Have some random buttons with random cooldowns that do burst aoe and nothing else. No dot spread? seed of corruption on a 30 second cooldown. Your rotation literally doesn't fit together properly? Have a talent that fixes that, but not baseline.

That last one is Shadow Word: Void, and does actually work just ported to baseline, but the others are abilities we don't exactly like or enjoy using, because the problems they inelegantly fix shouldn't even be problems to begin with.

And a brief thing about Shadow Word: Death, you ask why it was made a talent? And personally I think the answer to that is that it was really boring in Legion (Not in MoP or WoD) because it didn't really "do" anything. Executes tend to have a pretty large effect on how you play your character during execute phase. Fire mages remove fireball from their rotation entirely and become 100% mobile, fury warrior's gain a massive resource boost which increases rampage usage and makes a fast spec even faster, arms replaces its major rage dumps with execute etc.

Shadow Word: Death is just a button you press every 9~ seconds. It doesn't interact with how you actually play the spec, it doesn't feel rewarding, and the resource it generates doesn't really do anything 90% of the time because you're either capped on insanity or draining it so quickly that the amount generated is worthless, It's not fun. It was fun way back when it generated mana you cared about, broke sheeps, and hit you in the face, it was fun in MoP / WoD when getting an extra shadow orb actually meant something, and getting more plagues out did significantly shape how your rotation played out (Even more so with Mind Flay Insanity).

This doesn't mean I think the ability itself should ever not be a baseline part of the kit, oh no, not even slightly. It does however mean I think the ability has been badly mistreated and that what SW:D was in Legion shouldn't get in the way of what SW:D should be, and what it has been in the past.
We need more options/choices/stats to customize our classes/specs.

Every spec should have all their active skills baseline and talents would be something that only add some passives and/or changes the mechanics of skills you already have to make your own playstyle and add flavor.

Also we need reforge and some interesting stats like magic res and spell/armor penetration back to the game.
11/11/2018 09:43 AMPosted by Zanmatø
Every spec should have all their active skills baseline and talents would be something that only add some passives and/or changes the mechanics of skills you already have to make your own playstyle and add flavor.

Not sure if I agree with this completely.
I think it's fine for classes to have simple toolkits baseline, but these toolkits have to be fully functional and fledged out, while also being properly tuned so every ability feels impactful.
If specs at their baseline were fun and functional, I wouldn't even mind only passive talents, as long as they are interesting.

Too bad non of the above that I've suggested is true for almost all specs.
10/26/2018 10:28 AMPosted by Yvaelle
God yes.

Shadow is unplayable right now. The rotation is an absolute mess. The talents make no sense. Our spells have no synergy. Our resources are illogical and create multiple conflicts of interest.

It's not fun, interesting, or challenging.

Shadow is a worst case right now, but it's not at all isolated to Shadow, that's just what affects me the most personally, but it's true for many (most?) specs.

Whatever this new class design ideology is they need to abandon it and go back to making classes fun.


But they won't because this is how Ion wants his game to be and we can all EAD if we don't like it. The problem is that he thinks he's smarter than the player base and it shows in the contempt when he speaks about how we don't understand his vision.... It makes me sad cause I used to play this game to get away from RL for a few hours a week but now it frustrates and stresses me out more than RL.
It makes me sad cause I used to play this game to get away from RL for a few hours a week but now it frustrates and stresses me out more than RL.


For a while I thought I was lonely in this since Legion.
Playing was more work than RL and the outcome was so insignificant it was maddening.

Anyway, I guess it's welcome to BS for Azeroth.

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