If You Use Raider IO, You Deserve M+ Leavers

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10/27/2018 03:16 AMPosted by Ritchie
If you own a company in an at-will hiring world, and you hire someone that is top-tier in their profession, expect that person to leave as soon as a better opportunity comes along. If you hire proficient people in their profession, they will be more loyal, even if you have the right to fire them on the spot for no reason whatsoever.

Why do these M+ leavers leave? We may not always know. But consider this, when you use Raider IO to "hire" someone, you are just going off some one-dimensional rating. You don't know anything about the person's character. Also, when you turn down players because you're looking for "the best", you are alienating your rejects from ever grouping with you.

You may turn down a Keenan Allen in favor of an Antonio Brown based on numbers, but you are also getting someone who's going to cry when he doesn't get his way.

So, as my thread title suggests... you use Raider IO to measure your standards for your M+ invites, you really do deserve M+ leavers.


git gud bud
10/27/2018 03:16 AMPosted by Ritchie
So, as my thread title suggests... you use Raider IO to measure your standards for your M+ invites, you really do deserve M+ leavers.

I'd argue that if you are pugging with complete strangers then you should expect people to leave.
Boohoo.

Raider.io score is just one metric, and anyone basing off invites off that one metric is an idiot and deserves the bad groups they get. For starters, someone with a high score might have just have had one good key for each dungeon. You don't want someone who lucked out 10 times, you want someone who's consistently good.

When checking raider.io, the following is what really matter:

  • How often do they run dungeons?
  • What key level they often run?
  • Do they usually complete their runs on time?
  • Are they alts (huge breaks between runs, few raid kills)?
  • Are most of their runs in the role they're queueing as?
  • Does their raid progression suggest they're good? (i.e. obvious not carried progression, as in have killed most bosses, at least in heroic, more than once. This is more important than AOTC! It means they're both nice enough to have groups let them stick around and putting enough effort that they're killing bosses week in week out)

Raider.io has a lot of information available. It's up to the group leader to use that information correctly. Misuse of that information will result in bad groups, and if you somehow manage to snatch a really top-notch player, but the rest of the group doesn't keep up, of course that player will leave as soon as they notice they're expected to carry the weight of everyone else.

So far I've only seen racists dropping groups midway, though, always yelling about mexicans this or mexicans that. But I do my groups following the above while also making sure it's a good group composition.
10/27/2018 05:40 AMPosted by Rhekkar
So again I ask, how would I go about determining the compentancy of complete stragers (without I.o score) to ensure your own key doesn't get scuffed? (No, I don't play with guildies for several reasons).

You can deduce a lot from a simple inspect.

You can look at their azerite trait choices. Are they good choices? What M+ level most of their gear comes from? If their highest pieces are TFed, it probably means weekly chest, but if they have a lot of non-TFed +8~+10 or higher pieces, they probably run a LOT of dungeons - that's experience. Are their enchants on point? How are their talent choices?

And that's just looking in-game. If raider.io is the only thing you can't use, you can check their wowprogress to see what they've been up to, or even their armory to see how they're doing - there you can check how often they kill stuff and how far they've gone.

Tbh, Blizzard killed Gearscore by implementing iLvl, they could just as easily kill raider.io by implementing some sort of in-game metric for what is your best key. The scores given by raider.io are not complex at all, it'd be quite easy to implement something like that right into the game.
10/27/2018 04:56 AMPosted by Sybianjoy
Well, since you think poorly of players who use raider.io, could you post on your main?

So as a player I can choose to manually block you if raider.io ever gets removed.


Asking OP to post on their main so they can be thoroughly judged and blocked.

Posting on a level 100 with a broken armory.
I circumvent this issue by only running with my guild. Sure maybe I could be doing 10s with elite pugs but I'd rather take that annoying part out and work with the guild to get better as a whole.
Biggest issue ive noticed with raider.io is people are far far far more likely to ragequit than those that dont.
Does their raid progression suggest they're good? (i.e. obvious not carried progression, as in have killed most bosses, at least in heroic, more than once. This is more important than AOTC! It means they're both nice enough to have groups let them stick around and putting enough effort that they're killing bosses week in week out)


Raiding has nothing to do with how well someone knows dungeon mechanics. Learned this the hard way in legion by failing easy keys with over geared raiders.

It's even more useless now that they removed set bonuses and allowed me to stop wasting 2h a week doing this chore.
10/27/2018 04:21 AMPosted by Onorlin
Whatever happened to creating/joining guilds to meet new friends and just doing content with those in your guild where you've all agreed on a time and day to do it together because, hey it's fun to play games with friends.


Because to many people WoW is not a game. It is their identity.

And playing with people who 'aren't as good as them' is an attack on their identity. Playing with lesser people makes them lesser.
10/27/2018 06:35 AMPosted by Sackless
Raiding has nothing to do with how well someone knows dungeon mechanics. Learned this the hard way in legion by failing easy keys with over geared raiders.

It's even more useless now that they removed set bonuses and allowed me to stop wasting 2h a week doing this chore.

It's not a perfect indicative, but it is one thing you can use. It's better when someone has a lot of dungeon experience you can rely on, but what if they don't? You fallback to raiding.

And if they have a lot of dungeon experience AND raiding experience? That's a plus.

Good raiding progression means, at the very least, "is aware of how to play class at an average level", which allows you to suppose that they'll be playing at least close to what their iLvl suggests they should be playing.

Beware of the carried, though. If someone only has a single kill of every boss, that's not a raider, don't invite! Ever!
10/27/2018 04:43 AMPosted by Onorlin
You play with them and make a judgement based on their performance. Seems pretty simple to me.


But, but, then my score wouldn't be great! I can't allow that!

(Sarcasm)
10/27/2018 05:57 AMPosted by Justinius
10/27/2018 05:51 AMPosted by Rhekkar
You can't just "play with them first" they are randoms from different servers, I can't even properly whisper different servers at times.


Dude, you most certainly CAN play with them first. I'm not saying that this first run is going to be a success for you, only that you can "try out" a player to see if you are compatible. This only seems unreasonable to you because you are part of this "instant gratification" generation who for some reason finds it incredibly difficult to make and keep friends longer than it takes to run a dungeon with them.

Instead on blindly relying on some machine to tell you who you will have fun playing with, how about you try cultivating some friendships that are more than superficial and narcissistic.


A lot of people talk about entitlement on these forums. Using raider.io because it will give you the best chance at having a one-shot group because you don't want to waste time getting to know people is definitely an example of entitlement.

I know my limits and don't typically try to push a key that I am not confident that I can handle, so I don't really have any problems finding groups without using raider.io. I also know that I really don't have any interest in helping someone who would use that kind of tool to filter players because they are entitled to the easiest run possible.

That said I am not sure why people are so mad about it, this kind of vetting has been used in WoW for a long time, whether it be linking of achievements or gearscore, ilvl, raider.io etc. I can see why the entitlement generation defends it so much though, obviously.
10/27/2018 05:21 AMPosted by Obfuscatia
If you want to treat parties in this game as businesses and Blizzard policy as law, then here goes:

People in WoW, when seen as businesses, have the right to hire and not hire people for any job they want. Your toon doesn't actually need anything to thrive in this game, so there are no regulations.

If they don't see you're qualified for the job, they won't hire you. Raider IO is like having an automated systems that checks for degrees and if the person is qualified. If they're not, they don't hire. Simple.


The only thing a degree certifies is that the person has sat for a long time - Peter F. Drucker

BA stands for Bugger All, MBA stands for More Bugger All, and Ph.D stands for Piled Higher and Deeper. - also Proffesor Drucker
Beware of the carried, though. If someone only has a single kill of every boss, that's not a raider, don't invite! Ever!


Yea, I'm not wasting play time to be invited by people who think like this. I agree that the worst players are carried raiders, but dungeon completions + ilvl is decent. I started logging runs on my druid yesterday, so I'm hunting purple parses for people who use that additional metric, but my raid progression will probably remain the same.
10/27/2018 06:49 AMPosted by Norayeda
The only thing a degree certifies is that the person has sat for a long time - Peter F. Drucker

BA stands for Bugger All, MBA stands for More Bugger All, and Ph.D stands for Piled Higher and Deeper. - also Proffesor Drucker

Raider.io is less like a degree and more like past experiences and previous employer's recommendations. Degree is level 120 and iLvl.
10/27/2018 03:16 AMPosted by Ritchie

You may turn down a Keenan Allen in favor of an Antonio Brown based on numbers, but you are also getting someone who's going to cry when he doesn't get his way.

That is actually a really well applied comparison! Good one there.

But in the end, the problem is raiderIO itself. Their scoring system tracks irrelevant and near-pointless elements of M+, and even though the scoring system gets used rampantly for pugging, they seem to have no interest in improving it for those who pug.

I have some very good ideas on ways to remedy the situation, and even tried to get an alternative started, but the guy involved kind of just stopped responding, so if anyone is a skilled website developer and very knowledgeable about blizzard API, contact me privately.

Until then, it doesn't seem like there will ever be any other options other than what we currently have.
Its a shame, but there are ways to try to work around it.

#1 tip I can give is try to discourage any chatter at all in party. You can do this simply by having everyone in voice chat, but it might get even worse there, depending how petty people are.

Whenever I see something escalate though, you need to try to dissolve it immediately. Take blame over some one else, even if its not your fault.
Say something like "don't worry, we still got this" when its applicable.
Just try to be positive in general.

It helps if you can type really fast as well, because if you can get multiple comments off before others can, it will stop them from typing at all.
10/27/2018 05:57 AMPosted by Justinius

Dude, you most certainly CAN play with them first.
How do I play with randoms from other servers whome I never met? What are you even talking about?

10/27/2018 05:57 AMPosted by Justinius
I'm not saying that this first run is going to be a success for you, only that you can "try out" a player to see if you are compatible.
No, I'm not wasting my keystone on some randoms just because you said I should.

10/27/2018 05:57 AMPosted by Justinius

This only seems unreasonable to you because you are part of this "instant gratification" generation who for some reason finds it incredibly difficult to make and keep friends longer than it takes to run a dungeon with them.
Ironic, coming from someone who thinks I should just let him waste my time, because "I didn't get to know the real person" or some other such nonsense.

10/27/2018 05:57 AMPosted by Justinius
Instead on blindly relying on some machine to tell you who you will have fun playing with, how about you try cultivating some friendships that are more than superficial and narcissistic.
Well I'm not interested in makeing friends with rando's, I have actual people in real life who matter. In game I just want to know if a.) You are good at your role b.) That you don't waste my time. That's all, it's not a crime to vet people, nor is it rude. I just want you to do the damn job you are supposed to and I require proof of such claim if you want to get into my keystone run.
If you own a company in an at-will hiring world, and you hire someone that is top-tier in their profession, expect that person to leave as soon as a better opportunity comes along.

Ummm...actually, NOT. You jump ship mid-stream too many times, leaving your previous employer in the lurch, no one will hire you, and you're definitely NOT considered "top-tier". Word gets around, it's your name/rep that makes you "top tier". Or if I'm just reviewing resumes, someone who's bounced around from job to job constantly, is going straight to the circular file, no matter how wonderful they look on paper. Huge warning flag. I don't need, someone else's problem child.

"Top tier" is a function of how many companies will/want to hire you...not how many you'll never be able to work for again...
10/27/2018 03:36 AMPosted by Dedaru
10/27/2018 03:16 AMPosted by Ritchie
Keenan Allen in favor of an Antonio Brown


Who?


Also in the dark there.

I wonder if the second guy is related to leeroy brown...

...heard he was the baddest man in the whole dang town.

;)


You play with them and make a judgement based on their performance. Seems pretty simple to me.


No thanks. There is a never ending line of people who will volunteer to do something that is too hard for them to do if they want the rewards. If it's their key it's a bit different but telling someone to just invite whoever wants in just shows that you do not make your own groups and you simply want people to act this way to you.
It just needs to log leaving. Someone who has a stellar record because they bail on 95% of their runs should be warned about to the community

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