The Masterplan for Sylvanas

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11/09/2018 04:08 PMPosted by Ariiah
11/09/2018 04:02 PMPosted by Grahntorinu
They've made similar statements regarding how much story Garrosh had as a warchief before MoP.


And that's one of the other problems. Garrosh had a lot of promise too and you know what? His early beginnings as a Warchief weren't -nearly- as bad as Sylvanas. Sylvanas personally all but ensures the Night Elves might just diminish from existence over the course of generations. Garrosh on the other hand, while definitely making moves to conquer Ashenvale for the Horde, didn't show (at the time as I recall at least) any signs of maniacal genocidal tendencies. He was just trying to improve the Horde's situation through an aggressive take-over of the nearest, largest source of lumber. Okay, cool.

Granted, that story was still contrived as hell given the Night Elves lost in their own HOMELAND advantage but...*shrug*

...kind of makes me want a fourth choice.

-You go to Silithus, and use the Heart of Azeroth to destablize the planet, thereby destroying everything because screw it, might as well just end this vicious cycle and spit in the face of the gods. ...and be a really bad person. Well done, buddy.

Just for those who want to watch the world burn, you know? >_>


To be honest with you, the evil side of things is fun for me, but then you got the Saurfang stuff bringing it down, and while I respect the need to pull things back a little, not to the extreme that he just wants Sylvanas dead so he works with the Alliance it get her out.
Cobra Commander has more nuance than Sylvanas.
11/09/2018 04:17 PMPosted by Talestra
I so wish I had a copy of Chronicles 3 right now. This sort of retcon feels pretty important if it's true. It'll also feel really really cheap on Blizz's part.

If it's not true, I won't blame you Kazala, this stuff gets really confusing quickly with how Blizz is doing things lately.
Bingo, found it in one of my old posts, don't even have to type it up again!

The Lich King emerged from the Wrath Gate, joining the fight himself. The very sight of him could have shifted the tide of battle in favor of the Scourge. Yet the Alliance and the Horde refused to flee before his presence. They grimly dug their heels in and fought on. If the Battle at the Wrath Gate had reached its conclusion, it might have spelled the end of the Lich King. But that was not to be.

From a rise overlooking the Wrath Gate, a barrage of plague canisters rained down on all armies and stopped the fighting dead in its tracks. A lethal green fog, capable of killing the living and the undead alike, enveloped the battlefield. The Lich King instantly understood what was happening, and he retreated without hesitation. Everyone left on the field of battle was killed: Bolvar Fordragon and almost five thousand Alliance soldiers, and Dranosh Saurfang and over four thousand loyal Horde followers.

The plague would have spread throughout the entire region and destroyed whomever it touched if not for the red dragonflight. Alexstrasza and her servants descended from the skies and purified the land with enchanted fire. They could not save the fallen, but they did eradicate the plague.

When the smoke cleared, Dranosh's and Bolvar's bodies were missing.
Cobra Commander has more nuance than Blizz.


Fixed that for ya.

Lets be honest this is all their fault. The lack of creativity and writing skills has caused this problem.
11/09/2018 04:31 PMPosted by Kazala
11/09/2018 04:17 PMPosted by Talestra
I so wish I had a copy of Chronicles 3 right now. This sort of retcon feels pretty important if it's true. It'll also feel really really cheap on Blizz's part.

If it's not true, I won't blame you Kazala, this stuff gets really confusing quickly with how Blizz is doing things lately.
Bingo, found it in one of my old posts, don't even have to type it up again!

The Lich King emerged from the Wrath Gate, joining the fight himself. The very sight of him could have shifted the tide of battle in favor of the Scourge. Yet the Alliance and the Horde refused to flee before his presence. They grimly dug their heels in and fought on. If the Battle at the Wrath Gate had reached its conclusion, it might have spelled the end of the Lich King. But that was not to be.

From a rise overlooking the Wrath Gate, a barrage of plague canisters rained down on all armies and stopped the fighting dead in its tracks. A lethal green fog, capable of killing the living and the undead alike, enveloped the battlefield. The Lich King instantly understood what was happening, and he retreated without hesitation. Everyone left on the field of battle was killed: Bolvar Fordragon and almost five thousand Alliance soldiers, and Dranosh Saurfang and over four thousand loyal Horde followers.

The plague would have spread throughout the entire region and destroyed whomever it touched if not for the red dragonflight. Alexstrasza and her servants descended from the skies and purified the land with enchanted fire. They could not save the fallen, but they did eradicate the plague.

When the smoke cleared, Dranosh's and Bolvar's bodies were missing.

I want to argue that, but it's pretty clear.
The best I can say is it's an oversight and they should have put in he slew dranosh first, but given that they are making it sound like she ordered the blight I am almost certain at some point she is just going to tell saurfang she killed his son.
At least they've been building up the forsaken cast suitably. Three years ago, everyone hated Lilian Voss. Now she's awesome, Nathanos is cool, and you have Zelling. Stone too, but I don't really remember much about her so that's probably not a good credit in her corner.
The Lich King emerged from the Wrath Gate, joining the fight himself. The very sight of him could have shifted the tide of battle in favor of the Scourge. Yet the Alliance and the Horde refused to flee before his presence. They grimly dug their heels in and fought on. If the Battle at the Wrath Gate had reached its conclusion, it might have spelled the end of the Lich King. But that was not to be.


This is why Sylvanas couldn't have planned the Wrathgate. She would not throw away her goal for no reason.
11/09/2018 04:38 PMPosted by Bronnix
The Lich King emerged from the Wrath Gate, joining the fight himself. The very sight of him could have shifted the tide of battle in favor of the Scourge. Yet the Alliance and the Horde refused to flee before his presence. They grimly dug their heels in and fought on. If the Battle at the Wrath Gate had reached its conclusion, it might have spelled the end of the Lich King. But that was not to be.


This is why Sylvanas couldn't have planned the Wrathgate. She would not throw away her goal for no reason.
Grunts do not make mistakes, apparently, unless they're not Forsaken.
11/09/2018 04:35 PMPosted by Granfaloon
The best I can say is it's an oversight
Oh, I'm sure it probably was, but that's almost worse.

The Wrathgate isn't the !@#$ing Troll Wars. You don't have to make it up. Just watch the cinematic that crowned the most memorable moment in WoW at the peak of its popularity and write what you see.

Continuity isn't as hard as they make it seem.
11/09/2018 04:31 PMPosted by Kazala
11/09/2018 04:17 PMPosted by Talestra
I so wish I had a copy of Chronicles 3 right now. This sort of retcon feels pretty important if it's true. It'll also feel really really cheap on Blizz's part.

If it's not true, I won't blame you Kazala, this stuff gets really confusing quickly with how Blizz is doing things lately.
Bingo, found it in one of my old posts, don't even have to type it up again!

The Lich King emerged from the Wrath Gate, joining the fight himself. The very sight of him could have shifted the tide of battle in favor of the Scourge. Yet the Alliance and the Horde refused to flee before his presence. They grimly dug their heels in and fought on. If the Battle at the Wrath Gate had reached its conclusion, it might have spelled the end of the Lich King. But that was not to be.

From a rise overlooking the Wrath Gate, a barrage of plague canisters rained down on all armies and stopped the fighting dead in its tracks. A lethal green fog, capable of killing the living and the undead alike, enveloped the battlefield. The Lich King instantly understood what was happening, and he retreated without hesitation. Everyone left on the field of battle was killed: Bolvar Fordragon and almost five thousand Alliance soldiers, and Dranosh Saurfang and over four thousand loyal Horde followers.

The plague would have spread throughout the entire region and destroyed whomever it touched if not for the red dragonflight. Alexstrasza and her servants descended from the skies and purified the land with enchanted fire. They could not save the fallen, but they did eradicate the plague.

When the smoke cleared, Dranosh's and Bolvar's bodies were missing.


And there it is. A crystal clear retcon. By that retcon, Deathbringer Saurfang wouldn't have even been a thing, and Daddy Saurfang couldn't have picked up his son. The stuff between Saurfang and Varian wouldn't have happened either.

Blizz, this legit makes me upset. Based on the fact you are now saying that Sylvanas ordered the Wrathgate, I can't see this as an oversight on your part. You are changing the story to purposely cause division. It's cheap, and insulting. If it is an oversight, well, you owe people an apology. Big time.

As somebody that loves the lore and the story, you just dumped all over it with this expansion Blizzard. A real shame.

Thanks for the clarification Kazala. It's appreciated. Personally, I kinda feel like you just out Redshirted the Redshirt guy at Blizzcon.
11/09/2018 04:38 PMPosted by Bronnix
The Lich King emerged from the Wrath Gate, joining the fight himself. The very sight of him could have shifted the tide of battle in favor of the Scourge. Yet the Alliance and the Horde refused to flee before his presence. They grimly dug their heels in and fought on. If the Battle at the Wrath Gate had reached its conclusion, it might have spelled the end of the Lich King. But that was not to be.


This is why Sylvanas couldn't have planned the Wrathgate. She would not throw away her goal for no reason.

What a difference it would have been if we killed arthas at the wrathgate.

This is Dalaran 7 at the scene of ICC where confused scourge workers speak out asking, What do we do now. We go live with dave. Dave?
AAAAAAAAAAAGHHHHH IM BEING EATEN BY GHOULS
Great reporting dave, more at 11.
My word. They retconned a cinematic.

11/09/2018 04:43 PMPosted by Kazala
Just watch the cinematic that crowned the most memorable moment in WoW at the peak of its popularity and write what you see.

Continuity isn't as hard as they make it seem.


It appears they are twisting the narrative to nonsensical degrees to tell a story with no previous basis before Chronicles 3.

BfA: Sylvanas now ordered The Wrathgate, she killed Saurfang's son, and every internal monologue she had in BtS was just her lying to herself incase she betrayed her own plan.
11/09/2018 04:03 PMPosted by Ariiah
11/09/2018 03:40 PMPosted by Deathisfinal
I'm putting my money on Sylvanas being right.


This would probably pretty badly wound my desire to even continue playing WoW, let alone the Horde, tbh. I'm not going to say it'd -kill- it, exactly but ...Blizzard, guys. No. Not again. It was bad enough with Illidan >_>

11/09/2018 03:55 PMPosted by Withpuppys
i am going to laugh if the right choice is the third one where you side with neither, because there was a quest where you side with neither of them


Given that the Champion's time is being wasted (to be most simplistic), by the war between the Horde and Alliance when the Champ in question needs to SAVE THE WORLD FROM FREAKING DYING BY HEMORRHAGE, I'm at a point where I feel like the third option SHOULD be the right choice. Who cares who wins the war? If everyone dies anyway, the idiot that started the war (cough Sylvanas cough) won't even have peace of death since a certain Old God is more than likely going to step right up and inhale literally everyone's souls because ...that's what evil dark god types do, I guess.

This bloody game... *Smh*
What was even the point of the whole Gorribal thing? The dying planet and azerite were immediately discarded as plot elements once you got the Heart, and I guess once you hit revered with CoA and pushed the Void thing out of the Chamber of the Heart.

One of the races making some kind of breakthrough on gunpowder would have ultimately accomplished the same crap. What we have is just Sylvanas and Nate: The Movie: The Game.
11/09/2018 04:37 PMPosted by Treng
Three years ago, everyone hated Lilian Voss. Now she's awesome

Speak for yourself.

I loved crazy Lilian, and while I like the character in BfA, I disagree strongly that it works coming from Lilian and think it should have been someone else.

Zelling is great though, yeah.
11/09/2018 06:06 PMPosted by Reignac
11/09/2018 04:37 PMPosted by Treng
Three years ago, everyone hated Lilian Voss. Now she's awesome

Speak for yourself.

I loved crazy Lilian, and while I like the character in BfA, I disagree strongly that it works coming from Lilian and think it should have been someone else.

Zelling is great though, yeah.

Yeah, speak for yourself! I still hate her.
I've never not loved Lilian, now or before, but I know a lot of people who hated her until now.
11/09/2018 01:55 PMPosted by Jellex
Excellent.

We, as the Horde, are world-class specialists in manufacturing of internal division and strife. I believe we could export this product to other stories so that they too may make their faction more interesting.

Might we not interest the Alliance in some our Horde specialty product?

...

Being not sarcastic for a moment, having them tell us there's a "right and wrong" choice really, really makes me narrow my eyes in suspicion. Did they not specifically state "we don't want anyone to feel like they chose the wrong faction" before this expansion?

Oh, wait, that was another lie, wasn't it?


If you as a player are complacent on being evil, and the faction you pick ended up being evil, didn't you technically chose the right faction?
I know the anti-Sylvanas and anti-Horde posters are crowing right now because all of the recent announcements have gone their way, but this should be sobering if you step back and think about it.

The degree to which they are willing to go back and hamfistedly retcon things that the fanbase remembers and enjoyed - not just minor details here and there, but major story points - just to support their chosen narrative of the present should be extremely concerning. Sure, right now you feel good because it's being used to beat up Sylvanas. What happens when she's gone and they start rewriting Saurfang as a bloody, genocidal monster who didn't reeeeeeeeeeeally feel that bad about all the awful stuff he did? (But there were cinematics! you say. Well, what was the Wrathgate?) Or when they change the introduction of the Night Elves in WC3 to tamp down and weaken their warrior heritage?

The fact that they feel justified to not just brush aside details to minor characters that became inconvenient (like Derek's reconstitution from ash to well-preserved corpse) but to start wholesale rewriting history should be of concern to everyone. When you support it just because it fits your crusade of the moment, it lets Blizzard off the hook for even attempting to maintain coherence in their narrative.
11/09/2018 07:45 PMPosted by Jellex
The degree to which they are willing to go back and hamfistedly retcon things that the fanbase remembers and enjoyed - not just minor details here and there, but major story points - just to support their chosen narrative of the present should be extremely concerning. Sure, right now you feel good because it's being used to beat up Sylvanas.
i hate sylvanas with a passion, but i hate the retcon, i loved that cinematic
Goodness. I understand that WoW is an old game where writers come and go, and I believe that new writers shouldn't feel inhibited by the minute details someone else put down in a book barely anybody read, but retconning an entire cinematic--THE cinematic, really--is something else entirely. How do they even expect people to catch up on that? Is every player who experienced the peak of WOTLK supposed to consult an external lore source to find out it's been changed? This is just lazy, and hugely concerning for the future. At least before you could feel like there are parts of your favorite race and characters that would never, ever change. Now you don't even have that. I hope they change the direction they're going in soon. Story is important!

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