Feral droods, give me some input?

Druid
Hi there. Looks like feral damage posts are the main topic of convo regarding the spec. I know feral is bad, but is it supposed to be this bad?

My item level is around 330 and if I'm lucky I'm sustaining 2.5k dps in groups. Everyone else blows by me on the meters at a rather frustrating pace. Is feral just optimized for end game? Will my damage be more competitive once I've geared?

I've checked and double checked sites like icy veins, ensuring that my rotations are optimal, gear is optimized, etc. Honestly, I'm as clueless as the target dummies wondering where the feral mosquito came from.

Do my feral numbers sound normal for my item level or is there something I'm missing here? I hate to sell out for boomkin, but at this point I don't even want to run dungeons as kitteh because it's, frankly, embarrassing.
In general 2.5k seems very low for i330, but it's astonishing feral damage for a monk. Hard to tell without being able to see what you're spec'd and what azerite powers you have.

In heroics I think I was pulling 5-7k at i330. If I was with an over geared group that had people pulling 15k+ my damage could drop to 3-4k.

You keeping rip/rake up on multiple targets for the trash and spec'd with brutal slash?
11/12/2018 11:31 AMPosted by Thequixote
In general 2.5k seems very low for i330, but it's astonishing feral damage for a monk. Hard to tell without being able to see what you're spec'd and what azerite powers you have.

In heroics I think I was pulling 5-7k at i330. If I was with an over geared group that had people pulling 15k+ my damage could drop to 3-4k.

You keeping rip/rake up on multiple targets for the trash and spec'd with brutal slash?

Yes but you have to admit it, feral is still !@#$ compared to other classes.
11/12/2018 09:27 AMPosted by Moonli
Hi there. Looks like feral damage posts are the main topic of convo regarding the spec. I know feral is bad, but is it supposed to be this bad?

My item level is around 330 and if I'm lucky I'm sustaining 2.5k dps in groups. Everyone else blows by me on the meters at a rather frustrating pace. Is feral just optimized for end game? Will my damage be more competitive once I've geared?

I've checked and double checked sites like icy veins, ensuring that my rotations are optimal, gear is optimized, etc. Honestly, I'm as clueless as the target dummies wondering where the feral mosquito came from.

Do my feral numbers sound normal for my item level or is there something I'm missing here? I hate to sell out for boomkin, but at this point I don't even want to run dungeons as kitteh because it's, frankly, embarrassing.


Even if you had everything down perfectly, you will still be pulling less than disireable numbers, feral is just very poor compared to other dps, especially in pve. That's why the majority of us still on feral are mainly pvpers. They provide people with no reason to ever bring them along in a raid group or mythic+ unless your team does not care since they do not provide much of anything right now utility wise.
11/12/2018 09:27 AMPosted by Moonli
Hi there. Looks like feral damage posts are the main topic of convo regarding the spec. I know feral is bad, but is it supposed to be this bad?

My item level is around 330 and if I'm lucky I'm sustaining 2.5k dps in groups. Everyone else blows by me on the meters at a rather frustrating pace. Is feral just optimized for end game? Will my damage be more competitive once I've geared?

I've checked and double checked sites like icy veins, ensuring that my rotations are optimal, gear is optimized, etc. Honestly, I'm as clueless as the target dummies wondering where the feral mosquito came from.

Do my feral numbers sound normal for my item level or is there something I'm missing here? I hate to sell out for boomkin, but at this point I don't even want to run dungeons as kitteh because it's, frankly, embarrassing.


There's something else going on here and we'd need to see your character to find the baseline areas of improvement. Without that it's just a shot in the dark.

My instinct is telling me that you're not running AoE talents which would cause your [Overall] dps to be low in a normal/heroic dungeon as individual mobs don't live long enough for our rotation to even fully cycle to the point where you can Ferocious Bite with DoTs rolling.
i find for dungeons using 3 stack of wild fleshrending works best with these talents:
blood scent, incarn, sabertooth, moment of clarity

on aoe trash just thrash and spam swipe
11/13/2018 07:02 AMPosted by Thaherb
i find for dungeons using 3 stack of wild fleshrending works best with these talents:
blood scent, incarn, sabertooth, moment of clarity

on aoe trash just thrash and spam swipe


I'm very curious as to the numbers you're pulling with this because this setup is actually awful.

3x wfr is a solid option
Blood scent is a worse option over predator in dungeons due to constant energy resets
Sabertooth wont help you on trash which is 75% of a dungeon
Incarn is only good on bosses that die within a minute and again is not useful most of the dungeon
MoC is a huge decrease in dps compared to properly using BT.

Pred, Jw or sotf, brutal slash, and BT are the go to talents for higher level dungeons.

OP, for gear stack as much haste as you can manage. Run the talents I suggested. If you simply cannot get BT for you or you hate it completely you could run moc but know it's a pretty large dps decrease in dungeons. So I highly suggest getting used to BT if you aren't using it currently.

For trash BT usage make sure you have your BT stacks up, stealth, rake, and here's where the number of targets matters a lot. If 3+ targets use your BT stacks on brutal slash, paired with TF it hits decently hard. On 5+ targets use a stack on Thrash then use them on brutal slashes. On less than 3 targets just use them on rake. Make sure you aren't capped on brutal slash stack. Only use brutal slash with BT as long as you wont cap or if you have every target with rake on them. Otherwise build combo points by tab raking/ripping targets.

So the trash rotation on 4 targets has you opening with rake (BT stack), brutal slashing (BT stack), thrash, tab rake to 5 combo points, rip, regrowth, brutal slash (bt stack), brutal slash (BT stack), then maintain dot uptime on all targets. Use TF as necessary. If using a haste on use trinket then wait till all targets at least have rake on them then use the trinket as all your bleeds will update dynamically with the new haste levels and you'll see your dps jump significantly. Try to make sure you always end a trash pack with 4-5 combo points if possible especially the pull before a boss fight as It makes the dungeon boss opener way easier.

Notice in trash I basically never use shred or Fb due to the energy costs compared to the damage provided.

Dungeon boss rotation if starting with 4-5 combo points. Regrowth for stacks, stealth, pre pot prior to pull,1s before pull berserk, TF, rake, rip, thrash, brutal slash/shred to 5 cps (prioritize brS as it's more energy efficient and does more damage than shred), regrowth before your finisher, FB, rake, continue on.

Keep in mind at lower keys or normal/heroic/m0 the damage you'll do while in a solid group will be a lot lower due to the ramp up time of all the above. Not an ideal situation for sure.

Using the above info in all the 10,11,12 keys I average about 18k trash dps on sustained 4 target (spikes as high as 27k before dropping), 13-16k (did 24k on first boss of motherlode with the dps increase) boss dps 13-15k overall dungeon dps. Numbers vary due to affixes, and dungeon mechanics.

Feral isnt in the best of spot for sure, but it's not as terrible as people make it out to be. It's mostly looked down upon due to low spec representation at the higher levels due to most competitive players running better specs. Thst concept has a trickle down effect to rest of the community as the "meta" specs begin to arise. 8.1 seems to be showing promise as far as concept goes, but the numbers will need to be tuned higher still to really justify feral taking a melee spot in a 5man.
11/13/2018 10:31 AMPosted by Pidooma
I'm very curious as to the numbers you're pulling with this because this setup is actually awful.
No its not? Ive talked to a few mythic raiders in the druid discord that use this set up in m+ and have had success with it.
11/13/2018 10:40 AMPosted by Grìz
11/13/2018 10:31 AMPosted by Pidooma
I'm very curious as to the numbers you're pulling with this because this setup is actually awful.
No its not? Ive talked to a few mythic raiders in the druid discord that use this set up in m+ and have had success with it.


I have not seen a single high io score feral running this setup with shown numbers exceeding that of the normal build. Which is why I said I'd be curious to see the numbers.
11/13/2018 07:02 AMPosted by Thaherb
i find for dungeons using 3 stack of wild fleshrending works best with these talents:
blood scent, incarn, sabertooth, moment of clarity

on aoe trash just thrash and spam swipe


Blood scent is pretty much being scrapped. Moment of Clarity might actually be a good ability if the proc was consistently reliable. I really do not like the idea of my damage being based on rng.
11/13/2018 10:31 AMPosted by Pidooma
11/13/2018 07:02 AMPosted by Thaherb
i find for dungeons using 3 stack of wild fleshrending works best with these talents:
blood scent, incarn, sabertooth, moment of clarity

on aoe trash just thrash and spam swipe


I'm very curious as to the numbers you're pulling with this because this setup is actually awful.

3x wfr is a solid option
Blood scent is a worse option over predator in dungeons due to constant energy resets
Sabertooth wont help you on trash which is 75% of a dungeon
Incarn is only good on bosses that die within a minute and again is not useful most of the dungeon
MoC is a huge decrease in dps compared to properly using BT.

Pred, Jw or sotf, brutal slash, and BT are the go to talents for higher level dungeons.

OP, for gear stack as much haste as you can manage. Run the talents I suggested. If you simply cannot get BT for you or you hate it completely you could run moc but know it's a pretty large dps decrease in dungeons. So I highly suggest getting used to BT if you aren't using it currently.

For trash BT usage make sure you have your BT stacks up, stealth, rake, and here's where the number of targets matters a lot. If 3+ targets use your BT stacks on brutal slash, paired with TF it hits decently hard. On 5+ targets use a stack on Thrash then use them on brutal slashes. On less than 3 targets just use them on rake. Make sure you aren't capped on brutal slash stack. Only use brutal slash with BT as long as you wont cap or if you have every target with rake on them. Otherwise build combo points by tab raking/ripping targets.

So the trash rotation on 4 targets has you opening with rake (BT stack), brutal slashing (BT stack), thrash, tab rake to 5 combo points, rip, regrowth, brutal slash (bt stack), brutal slash (BT stack), then maintain dot uptime on all targets. Use TF as necessary. If using a haste on use trinket then wait till all targets at least have rake on them then use the trinket as all your bleeds will update dynamically with the new haste levels and you'll see your dps jump significantly. Try to make sure you always end a trash pack with 4-5 combo points if possible especially the pull before a boss fight as It makes the dungeon boss opener way easier.

Notice in trash I basically never use shred or Fb due to the energy costs compared to the damage provided.

Dungeon boss rotation if starting with 4-5 combo points. Regrowth for stacks, stealth, pre pot prior to pull,1s before pull berserk, TF, rake, rip, thrash, brutal slash/shred to 5 cps (prioritize brS as it's more energy efficient and does more damage than shred), regrowth before your finisher, FB, rake, continue on.

Keep in mind at lower keys or normal/heroic/m0 the damage you'll do while in a solid group will be a lot lower due to the ramp up time of all the above. Not an ideal situation for sure.

Using the above info in all the 10,11,12 keys I average about 18k trash dps on sustained 4 target (spikes as high as 27k before dropping), 13-16k (did 24k on first boss of motherlode with the dps increase) boss dps 13-15k overall dungeon dps. Numbers vary due to affixes, and dungeon mechanics.

Feral isnt in the best of spot for sure, but it's not as terrible as people make it out to be. It's mostly looked down upon due to low spec representation at the higher levels due to most competitive players running better specs. Thst concept has a trickle down effect to rest of the community as the "meta" specs begin to arise. 8.1 seems to be showing promise as far as concept goes, but the numbers will need to be tuned higher still to really justify feral taking a melee spot in a 5man.


Aka the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Not in the fact that your wrong, but in the fact that's what you have to pull off for sub par DPS at best. I exclusively feral PvP only. You're basically just asking for a new keyboard every week trying to compete PvE DPS as feral.

That set up is legitimately disgusting. Is this BFA or vanilla. Lol. Did the druid devs pass away or something ?

How is BT still a thing lol. Honestly.
My iLvl is 359. It's not fun. Sure, single target in a raid, I'm not the lowest DPS. World quests suck, my wife plays enhancement shaman and she is usually 1500 dps above me on WQ. Her iLvL is 329. To be clear, I'm not the lowest DPS on a single target in a raid, but I'm sure as heck not the highest. I'm lucky to make top 10 in LFR. I've been a Feral main since BC. This is by far the worst performance I've ever seen from this spec. Granted, LFR usually has a high percentage of FotM on the damage meters but feral is just sad.

Also, LFR bosses do not at all represent what the open world feels like.

Our gear plays a major role in our performance. Our azerite traits specifically can almost make us and will always break us.

Feral just isn't fun anymore for basic questing and what not. I feel like I'm constantly waiting for energy, when I have energy my finishers aren't very strong, and my survival is crap.

I have tried, I have been trying, BfA killed feral.
11/13/2018 06:33 PMPosted by Jac
My iLvl is 359. It's not fun. Sure, single target in a raid, I'm not the lowest DPS. World quests suck, my wife plays enhancement shaman and she is usually 1500 dps above me on WQ. Her iLvL is 329. To be clear, I'm not the lowest DPS on a single target in a raid, but I'm sure as heck not the highest. I'm lucky to make top 10 in LFR. I've been a Feral main since BC. This is by far the worst performance I've ever seen from this spec. Granted, LFR usually has a high percentage of FotM on the damage meters but feral is just sad.

Also, LFR bosses do not at all represent what the open world feels like.

Our gear plays a major role in our performance. Our azerite traits specifically can almost make us and will always break us.

Feral just isn't fun anymore for basic questing and what not. I feel like I'm constantly waiting for energy, when I have energy my finishers aren't very strong, and my survival is crap.

I have tried, I have been trying, BfA killed feral.


Agreed, exactly how I feel. Too much struggle. Forced max effort for little gain. There are most certainly no feral mains on the balancing team.
11/13/2018 04:47 PMPosted by Xenpachi
<span class="truncated">...</span>

I'm very curious as to the numbers you're pulling with this because this setup is actually awful.

3x wfr is a solid option
Blood scent is a worse option over predator in dungeons due to constant energy resets
Sabertooth wont help you on trash which is 75% of a dungeon
Incarn is only good on bosses that die within a minute and again is not useful most of the dungeon
MoC is a huge decrease in dps compared to properly using BT.

Pred, Jw or sotf, brutal slash, and BT are the go to talents for higher level dungeons.

OP, for gear stack as much haste as you can manage. Run the talents I suggested. If you simply cannot get BT for you or you hate it completely you could run moc but know it's a pretty large dps decrease in dungeons. So I highly suggest getting used to BT if you aren't using it currently.

For trash BT usage make sure you have your BT stacks up, stealth, rake, and here's where the number of targets matters a lot. If 3+ targets use your BT stacks on brutal slash, paired with TF it hits decently hard. On 5+ targets use a stack on Thrash then use them on brutal slashes. On less than 3 targets just use them on rake. Make sure you aren't capped on brutal slash stack. Only use brutal slash with BT as long as you wont cap or if you have every target with rake on them. Otherwise build combo points by tab raking/ripping targets.

So the trash rotation on 4 targets has you opening with rake (BT stack), brutal slashing (BT stack), thrash, tab rake to 5 combo points, rip, regrowth, brutal slash (bt stack), brutal slash (BT stack), then maintain dot uptime on all targets. Use TF as necessary. If using a haste on use trinket then wait till all targets at least have rake on them then use the trinket as all your bleeds will update dynamically with the new haste levels and you'll see your dps jump significantly. Try to make sure you always end a trash pack with 4-5 combo points if possible especially the pull before a boss fight as It makes the dungeon boss opener way easier.

Notice in trash I basically never use shred or Fb due to the energy costs compared to the damage provided.

Dungeon boss rotation if starting with 4-5 combo points. Regrowth for stacks, stealth, pre pot prior to pull,1s before pull berserk, TF, rake, rip, thrash, brutal slash/shred to 5 cps (prioritize brS as it's more energy efficient and does more damage than shred), regrowth before your finisher, FB, rake, continue on.

Keep in mind at lower keys or normal/heroic/m0 the damage you'll do while in a solid group will be a lot lower due to the ramp up time of all the above. Not an ideal situation for sure.

Using the above info in all the 10,11,12 keys I average about 18k trash dps on sustained 4 target (spikes as high as 27k before dropping), 13-16k (did 24k on first boss of motherlode with the dps increase) boss dps 13-15k overall dungeon dps. Numbers vary due to affixes, and dungeon mechanics.

Feral isnt in the best of spot for sure, but it's not as terrible as people make it out to be. It's mostly looked down upon due to low spec representation at the higher levels due to most competitive players running better specs. Thst concept has a trickle down effect to rest of the community as the "meta" specs begin to arise. 8.1 seems to be showing promise as far as concept goes, but the numbers will need to be tuned higher still to really justify feral taking a melee spot in a 5man.


Aka the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Not in the fact that your wrong, but in the fact that's what you have to pull off for sub par DPS at best. I exclusively feral PvP only. You're basically just asking for a new keyboard every week trying to compete PvE DPS as feral.

That set up is legitimately disgusting. Is this BFA or vanilla. Lol. Did the druid devs pass away or something ?

How is BT still a thing lol. Honestly.


Exactly right. We have some mechanics that really make you question the competency of the devs. How berserk is still a worse copy of vanilla rogues adrenaline rush I have no idea. We made numerous posts in the beta about how it legit was only adding 17 dps at max level and with the gcd change most of us stopped using it entirely at the time. Then they increase the duration slightly as if that's a fix for the issue.

I don't mind BT honestly, as I like the little bit of complexity in comparison to other classes feeling very bare bones in terms of min maxing. It does however suck when you know you played an aoe pull perfectly, everything properly snapshotted, all bleeds up the entire time, and then you look and you were out dpsd by a DHs one button eye beam. Why they refuse to let brutal slash be the hard hitter it was in 7.3 legion I have no idea. They are so concerned with us having to use aoe skills in single target though they forget that classes like DH, ww monk, frost mage, etc exist and have their aoe a part of their baseline single target dps rotation by design. Most of our viability issues could be "solved" with proper tuning, however it doesnt stop certain aspects from being unfun. Tab dotting for little reward feels bad. Not that spamming brutal slash in 7.3 was any more fun tbh, but at the very least it was effective.

I dont know, I cant ever get into playing any other class and the few times I've tried other druid specs I just missed feral too much. Even tried to swap to rogue multiple times over the years but just cant seem to enjoy it as much. With 8.1 not coming till almost mid December I hardly have the motivation to continue pushing keys. My groups didnt even both doing a single m+ this week due to lack of motivation, but that's much more of a bfa gameplay flaw than it is in regards to the topic at hand. We are all playing other games lately instead of dealing with the headache of current game/class design. Even though we all think 8.1 is a solid step in the right direction, it is simply coming too late for us to retain that desire to play.
100% what Pidooma said. BT can at times feel bad with GCD but you do get used to it. And I think BrS really just needs the charges to be removed and let our energy control it.

8.1 is really far off and feels like a half step to viability. I think rip/primal wrath will still need a 15% buff.

How we get through the weeks till 8.1 I dont know. I guess keep chasing haste gear with 0 luck
You're doing very poor damage but also using a different metric than endgame raiding. We tend to be poor in 5 mans because of a lack of utility and our damage ramps up over time.

I average around 13-19k depending on the fight in Heroic Uldir.

E: Mistype
Feral is weird, isn't tuned properly, while balance gets easily around 13k sustained DPS per fight while feral gets max 8k on the hands of an avarege player. (357ilv).
Hey Moonli! Currently taking a break from feral but that does seem a little bit low for ilvl 330. Kitties have probably one of the lowest aoe dps in the game right now but hopefully that will change with 8.1. That being said, ima throw a ballpark figure out there and say you should be pulling atleast 5k at that ilvl. Try to pick up brutal slash, MoC, and JW and use thrash/BS while keeping up Rake/Rip on as many targets as you can where the dots will last almost their entire duration.

For reference I'm at 360 ilvl and I think I pull around 8k on trash packs and 9-10k on bosses.
11/14/2018 02:41 AMPosted by Pidooma
Tab dotting for little reward feels bad. Not that spamming brutal slash in 7.3 was any more fun tbh, but at the very least it was effective.


A little OT but the Tab Dotting play style and that it looks like they are doubling down on it with the rip changes is a real utility killer. It's damn near impossible to pull off if you also need to be interrupting casts. Really should be lobbying for the interrupt to be changed to an aoe.

IMHO I would like to see feral morph into long fight boss specialist with rip ramping up the longer it's applied and the more combo points you keep adding to the original bleed.
without going into too much detail, feral sucks donkey %*!*!%#@ for a lot of reasons, GCD's, Poor Energy generation, poor combo point builders due to lack of energy, !@#$ cd's, bad aoe, bleeds that are non-existent, its in a real %^-* place at the moment that takes away the enjoyment from the original playstyle ferals were intended to be. Even though I keep my feral up to a bare minimum, it really is painful to play in the current stale content. I really wish they would revert the legion changes. They basically stripped the feral playstyle to compensate for legendaries and artifact weapons. NONE of that !@#$ got reverted when we lost both the legendaries and the artifacts. I have no faith in the class designers because they have shown that they have no idea whatsoever. If you want to play a class that is CLOSE to a feral, I say level a rogue because a rogue pretty much is how feral should be for the most part.. BLAH

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum