Anything for Horde in 8.1?

Story Forum
This is something I am mainly just curious about. Aside from those who greatly desire to join Saurfangs rebellion, is there anything to look forward to in 8.1 if you are a Horde fan?

This isn't completely intended to be a passive aggressive critique, I am genuinely curious what others may be looking forward to in 8.1. Primarily from a story perspective, although you can add in other perspectives if you desire.

For me, there is nothing story wise to look forward to at all, and honestly I find that very disappointing, and it is probably why I have been whining about it more than usual, lol. For gameplay, I am interested in getting the forsaken warfront armor, but other than that there isn't much that interests me on that front either.

This thread is primarily aimed at Horde players and fans, but feel free to chime in regardless. Just please try to keep derailing to a minimum :P.
Don't you kill Gelbin? I know the Alliance kills Rastakahn but he's a newbie, and has an heiress. Gelbin's OG Vanilla Alliance and has no heir apparent other than once upon a time a guy who's now a radioactive madman missing his bottom half.
11/13/2018 01:56 AMPosted by Hyolia
Don't you kill Gelbin? I know the Alliance kills Rastakahn but he's a newbie, and has an heiress. Gelbin's OG Vanilla Alliance and has no heir apparent other than once upon a time a guy who's now a radioactive madman missing his bottom half.


Gelbin gets frozen and doesn't die, as far as I know. I really doubt he isn't going to come back, probably with the mecha or junker gnomes.

Also, I actually meant to post this thread under the ptr discussions section lol, but I suppose here is fine as well!
- Gelbin gets pushed to the brink of death and is in stasis indefinitely
- Jaina eats a bullet
- The Horde gains Priscilla Ashvane as an ally after a successful raid on Tol Dagor
- Derek Proudmoore is successfully reanimated and is being primed to end the Proudmoores
- Nathanos gains an army of empowered night elves, including the former leader of the Wardens and a captain of the Sentinels, after humiliating Tyrande and Malfurion
Yea, Gelbin gets frozen in carbonite, and I'm sure he will come back for 8.2 or when ever mech place goes live.

Horde gets zanda trolls?
11/13/2018 02:51 AMPosted by Smig
Yea, Gelbin gets frozen in carbonite, and I'm sure he will come back for 8.2 or when ever mech place goes live.

Horde gets zanda trolls?
As far as I know, Tirassians and Zandalari won't be available until 8.2. I'm hoping for an 8.1.5 that adds them, but not getting my hopes up.
11/13/2018 02:47 AMPosted by Kyveli
- Gelbin gets pushed to the brink of death and is in stasis indefinitely
- Jaina eats a bullet
- The Horde gains Priscilla Ashvane as an ally after a successful raid on Tol Dagor
- Derek Proudmoore is successfully reanimated and is being primed to end the Proudmoores
- Nathanos gains an army of empowered night elves, including the former leader of the Wardens and a captain of the Sentinels, after humiliating Tyrande and Malfurion

Oh boy all this stuff to add to a conflict the game tells us we are evil for participating in and has ruined any care the horde players have for it.

I know it's hard to believe but us complaining about the story, hate the !@#$ing story. Why should we get excited for winning a conflict the game tells us were evil for trying to win, destroys more horde themes than it creates, and is all around poorly written?
Well we get undead Night Elves atleast.
11/13/2018 03:14 AMPosted by Desanvos
Well we get undead Night Elves atleast.

That doesn't make it better, im sick of Undead Elves.
11/13/2018 02:47 AMPosted by Kyveli
- Gelbin gets pushed to the brink of death and is in stasis indefinitely
- Jaina eats a bullet
- The Horde gains Priscilla Ashvane as an ally after a successful raid on Tol Dagor
- Derek Proudmoore is successfully reanimated and is being primed to end the Proudmoores
- Nathanos gains an army of empowered night elves, including the former leader of the Wardens and a captain of the Sentinels, after humiliating Tyrande and Malfurion


-Gelbin who?
-The same Jaina that we keep being invited to sympathize with? The one that has explicitly chilled out on the whole "kill everything in red" themes?
-We are excited about a human slaver who staged a failed rebellion and surrendered without a shot fired? ...Why?
-Blizz doesn't want us to hate Jaina, we supposedly neutralize her for the short term during the raid, and we've never even heard about Katherine in our questing. With the Kul Tirans already backing the Alliance, this is a meaningless gesture.
-Yay, more members of Alliance races? No one actually asked for night elf zombies. I think Alliance players are far more annoyed at us getting them than any of us are excited to have them. Not sure if you've looked at that fight lately, but it's been made much more clear that Nathanos is way out of his depth.
Not that I'm complaining. Last thing Nathanos needed was another win against first-stringers.
11/13/2018 02:54 AMPosted by Reallyhappy
11/13/2018 02:47 AMPosted by Kyveli
- Gelbin gets pushed to the brink of death and is in stasis indefinitely
- Jaina eats a bullet
- The Horde gains Priscilla Ashvane as an ally after a successful raid on Tol Dagor
- Derek Proudmoore is successfully reanimated and is being primed to end the Proudmoores
- Nathanos gains an army of empowered night elves, including the former leader of the Wardens and a captain of the Sentinels, after humiliating Tyrande and Malfurion

Oh boy all this stuff to add to a conflict the game tells us we are evil for participating in and has ruined any care the horde players have for it.

I know it's hard to believe but us complaining about the story, hate the !@#$ing story. Why should we get excited for winning a conflict the game tells us were evil for trying to win, destroys more horde themes than it creates, and is all around poorly written?


There are Horde fans defending the story.
We get to see Vol'jin again? Though the circumstances are not ideal.

You should cross-post this to the PTR forums anyway. People who have unsubscribed can post there, and I'm curious what they'd have to say.
11/13/2018 05:34 AMPosted by Arlifrex
11/13/2018 02:54 AMPosted by Reallyhappy
...
Oh boy all this stuff to add to a conflict the game tells us we are evil for participating in and has ruined any care the horde players have for it.

I know it's hard to believe but us complaining about the story, hate the !@#$ing story. Why should we get excited for winning a conflict the game tells us were evil for trying to win, destroys more horde themes than it creates, and is all around poorly written?


There are Horde fans defending the story.


There are Horde fans who refuse to turn on Sylvanas because that's so blatantly what the writers want, and the writing quality has not earned any kind of compliance. It's... not quite the same thing.

Yes, there's that one in a few dozen that actually likes what's happening, but those are the ones whose understanding of the Horde is better suited to non-Blizzard titles.
11/13/2018 05:33 AMPosted by Kirango
Blizz doesn't want us to hate Jaina


i think that you are supposed to hate her because she kills rasthakan.
or that is what the lfr text says about the wing "the alliance murdered king rastakhan and the ones responsible for it must be brought to justice before they can escape"
the same with the following quests with derek.

as for the thread, i guess that you guys will have baine finally doing something and looking for vol'jin, and setting the stage with saurfang probably looking for thrall.

but hm.. probably not everyone is going to be happy with what the horde is doing in darkshore, you know being a tauren druid attacking malfurion and blighting the lands. that must be awkward.
11/13/2018 05:59 AMPosted by Etheldald
11/13/2018 05:33 AMPosted by Kirango
Blizz doesn't want us to hate Jaina


i think that you are supposed to hate her because she kills rasthakan.

Nah, we're supposed to hate ourselves for making her sad.
The Gallywix-Mekkatorque War Campaign quest is pretty fun?

Not that I'm complaining. Last thing Nathanos needed was another win against first-stringers.

Another? When has he ever won against "first stringers"?
11/13/2018 06:16 AMPosted by Pellex
11/13/2018 05:59 AMPosted by Etheldald
...

i think that you are supposed to hate her because she kills rasthakan.

Nah, we're supposed to hate ourselves for making her sad.


Besides Warbringers, when do Horde players see anything about her that makes them self-hating?
Honestly, the only thing I'm looking forward to in 8.1 is just class and azerite changes. The story is just meh to me so far. Nothing to be excited about.

11/13/2018 02:53 AMPosted by Kyveli
As far as I know, Tirassians and Zandalari won't be available until 8.2. I'm hoping for an 8.1.5 that adds them, but not getting my hopes up.


They confirmed at BlizzCon that Zandalari and Kul Tirans will be unlockable in 8.1.5 and will require Zandalari Empire and Proudmoore Admiralty, respectively.

11/13/2018 05:43 AMPosted by Kirango
There are Horde fans who refuse to turn on Sylvanas because that's so blatantly what the writers want, and the writing quality has not earned any kind of compliance. It's... not quite the same thing.


You can count me as one of those kinds of Horde players.
11/13/2018 06:51 AMPosted by Arlifrex
Besides Warbringers, when do Horde players see anything about her that makes them self-hating?

I typed up my thoughts about this at length in another thread a few weeks ago, so please forgive me if I just quote it. (I would link to the old thread, but I'm not sure how the new forums are going to interact with older threads, and this way the text will be in an active thread when we migrate over.)

10/02/2018 10:34 AMPosted by Pellex
Since we've argued a lot about Sylvanas lately, let's talk about Jaina a bit for some variety. It also seems like a good time since it's confirmed the Horde will be fighting her in the BoZ raid.

I've seen Alliance posters assume that Horde players hate Jaina because she hates the Horde. This is usually followed by "But Jaina has every reason to hate the Horde after what you did to her!" I have to confess that I tend to stop reading a post when I see an argument along those lines, because it completely sidesteps the point, for me.

My feelings on Jaina are much more like the kind of hurt and anger that I saw directed toward Thalyssra and the Nightborne by Alliance posters after it was revealed that the Nightborne were joining the Horde. (Not saying the characters or circumstances are identical, just that the player reaction of hurt at being rejected is similar.)

I've been playing since BC, so I can remember when Jaina used to be the Horde's best ally on the Alliance side. I liked her as a character then: a talented mage who had made sacrifices for peace with my team and who respected my warchief. (I never bought Jaina/Thrall as a ship, but I did like the relationship they had.) I mention all of this because the positive feelings from those days turned to bitterness when they made Jaina turn against me/my character.

--Oh, since I was mocked for roleplaying the last time I tried to put this into words, I should make clear that I'm speaking of the reactions of me, the player, not Pellex the character. Though I can't avoid a little bit of blurring of lines because when a fictional character turns against my character, it is the player who has the reaction to the story.

The bombing of Theramore was handled very much like the burning of Teldrassil: they heavily played up the pathos and loss for the Alliance in a Christie Golden-written novel, while the Horde was given no real reason to feel that it was a good or necessary move--the opposite, if anything. I had RL issues going on, so I wasn't logging in regularly when it happened. But I hated the story, and to this day, I have never done any of those quests on any of my toons.

But it doesn't matter. Jaina changed overnight from the Horde's best ally to a seething ball of hatred. She wasn't just angry; she was vicious and vindictive and wanted to kill Horde babies. And the Alliance playerbase cheered and took her in their arms and petted her head and said, "There, there, poor thing, that nasty Horde won't hurt you any more." And all the media surrounding her, ever since that time, has emphasized her tragic suffering. Every time she appears, she's full of anger at the Horde (me) or reproaching herself for not killing the Horde (me), or both. And that hurts. Like we were friends and I never stopped liking her, but then she just turned on me out of nowhere.

And IRL, I'm very susceptible to guilt. So when the game/media keep shoving Jaina's tragic face in front of me and shouting, "YOU DID THIS, YOU MONSTER! SHE WAS NICE TO YOU, AND YOU BROKE HER HEART!"--well, on some level they succeed in making me feel guilty, despite the fact that I know I don't deserve it. I don't deserve it because I didn't even do the quests as a player and so wasn't even there as a character, and I doubly don't deserve it because I (player or character) never asked for Theramore to be bombed in the first place. But it doesn't matter; there's nothing I (player or character) can do to make the situation better. And that makes me both frustrated and angry.

So there's this whole stew of complicated negative emotions that comes up whenever I see Jaina. Of course, I should stress that these reactions are nowhere near as intense as they would be if attached to a real-life relationship. It's just a game, after all, and I am perfectly capable of telling the difference between fiction and real life. But the feelings are strong enough to get in the way of my finding any enjoyment in following Jaina around as the main character of an expac (Alliance) or fighting her as my main enemy (Horde).

I don't hate Jaina. Not the way Alliance posters hate Sylvanas. I actually envy their ability to just hate Sylvanas in an uncomplicated manner. It's one more reason why it's hard to feel faction pride or get invested in fighting against the Alliance. I do not want to see Jaina die. I do not want to fight her or hurt her ("EVEN MORE, AFTER ALL YOU'VE ALREADY DONE TO HER, YOU MONSTER?"). The only thing that would feel better would be to see her forced to admit that she was wrong about the Horde. And I know this isn't going to happen with how they're writing the Horde at the moment, so don't bother to tell me so.

I'm curious whether I'm the only Horde player who feels this way, or if anyone else agrees.

TL;DR: My feelings toward Jaina are complex but can't be called hatred.

TL;DR #2: I don't hate Jaina--I hate the way she makes me feel.


https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769337416?page=1
This post by Kelisaria also sums up a lot of the Jaina problem for Horde players. (Forgive me for quoting at such length, but again, I wanted to migrate this into an active thread because I wasn't sure whether just linking to the post would still work after the forum change.)

10/02/2018 07:57 PMPosted by Kelisaria
I don't hate Jaina. Hell, I still ship Jaina and Thrall. My problem, and my hatred, is directed at the extremely patronizing and mean-spirited story that Horde players get. We're forced to be baby-eating monsters and hurt innocents like Jaina. The story than goes out of it's way to make us feel like monsters for what Garrosh did to her, and Alliance players call us all monsters and literal National Socialists for playing the "wrong" faction. Despite it being Blizzard that shoved this !@#$ down our throats.

They go out of their way to write the story so that Alliance players always feel justified, and the story constantly %^-*s on Horde players by having Jaina, a once kind and friendly woman, spew hateful and genocidal bile at us, and everyone treating her venom as though it is morally correct to be a bigoted nutcase (and enabling her bad behavior), all because the writers can't be asked to write the Alliance as being in the wrong, or the Horde being justified about anything. The one-sided, Alliance-favoritism soaked writing is what I have a problem with.

I shouldn't have the game trying to make me feel like crap because I didn't pick the team that Blizzard writers like Golden seem to see as the moral and cultural ideal full of pure and good people. In many post-Rise of the Horde books, Alliance characters and races are always depicted having fun or being "human" in some notable way. You never see that with Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, Blood Elves, or some such unless it is an Alliance character taking pity on the "monsters". Hell, I think one of the reasons Horde players loved "Old Soldier" so much was because it showed Horde characters acting like people rather than evil and mindless monsters. Saurfang even made a joke at the end!

In short: the story wants Horde players to hate Jaina, but the story also goes out of its way to make us hate ourselves for her hating us. When the only "antagonist" Alliance-side is someone we have to feel bad for, someone who used to be our friend or was at least tolerant and understanding, that immediately kills any reason we have to fight her or the Alliance. I don't want to fight Tyrande, she has every reason to want Sylvanas dead. I'd help her do it if the story let me. It all leads to this story feeling patronizing, stupid, and utterly contrived. I would rather be fighting Old Gods or the Legion than have to be beaten over the head for choosing the wrong faction, in an utterly pointless war to keep the redundantly stupid "faction war" going (that should have ended in Warcraft III).

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769337416?page=3#post-44

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