Preach's Video - M+

General Discussion
11/02/2018 08:21 AMPosted by Yonbi
TL;DR ilvl alone makes people think they are entitled to a position on a team clearing content they don't belong in.

You can realistically hit 350+ through just warfronts. This is content that is literally impossible to fail at. From an ilvl standpoint that puts you on par with M+4-6 gear. Even if you've never completed any of the dungeons on any difficulty before.

That is not good for anyone.

hey that's me

I have 2 pieces I got from being carried through normal uldir by some friends but other than that, I have 4 titanforges, 2 warforges and a whooooooole lotta welfare gear that I don't deserve.

Granted I know I'm not bad at the game, I'm just taking it way more casually than I have in the past. Regardless of my background though, I don't deserve pretty much any of the gear that I have. And people who might not be as good at the game getting gear that puts them knee deep into some of the harder endgame content are going to feel massively overwhelmed when they realize that they aren't prepared for more challenging content even though their gear says they should be.
11/02/2018 08:25 AMPosted by Nessfalco
What he's saying isn't terribly controversial. The difficulty spike of the M+ learning curve has been moved to earlier keys and lots of people vastly overestimate their ability and the work required to progress in them, at least partially because of ilvl inflation.

There are certainly legitimate criticisms of the system, but most of the posts that flood the general forums crying about M+ are about people being unable/unwilling to create their own regular groups and actually progress through M+. They are under the (false) impression that just because it is an alternative to raiding that it should be completely puggable with minimal experience, which is not the case.

Take the extra effort to find people in a similar situation, join/create a discord, schedule some time to do dungeons and actually progress through them and you'll have a much better time in the end.


I really enjoyed your response, thank you.

11/02/2018 09:26 AMPosted by Rockadee
You know what YouTube really needs? A comment section where you can discuss the video with other people.


This video is about criticisms found on the forums.

11/02/2018 09:22 AMPosted by Sydarar
The affixes are all boring and similar. They could have some real fun with it, but it's all too measured and safe. I assume for the sake of esports. Balance before fun I guess.

Some dungeons I haven't seen for the better part of a month or more, others, I get over and over and over.

Bad luck protection is lacking. There's a lot of talk about people getting good gear and titanforges. I by no means grind out keystones all week, but I usually do a handful. I mostly get nothing, or watch other people get amazing titanforges, and then go on to get trolled by my weekly chest. Gear drought is real and incredibly irritating.


Thanks for your response as well, I enjoy trying to understand where people are coming from.
The problem is Blizzard can’t come up with a way to bridge the skill gap between new and longtime players in a way that feels satisfying for anyone.

Giving them gear on par with Heroic/Mythic raiders might help them brute force their throughput up to a minimally acceptable level for harder content but it’s also led to the majority of toxicity and social issues you see.

People want to play a game and have fun and I get that and agree to an extent but there also NEED to be skill related barriers in order to advance to more difficult content.

It’s not fair to ANYONE to give a noob/bad player 350+ gear from no-skill content and then essentially “lure” them into content that’s too difficult for them to handle.

It’s not fair to those players who quickly get in way over their head and it’s not fair to the players who get stuck grouping with them and it leads to a lot of bad feelings for everybody.
11/02/2018 09:42 AMPosted by Brissandy
The problem is Blizzard can’t come up with a way to bridge the skill gap between new and longtime players in a way that feels satisfying for anyone.

Giving them gear on par with Heroic/Mythic raiders might help them brute force their throughput up to a minimally acceptable level for harder content but it’s also led to the majority of toxicity and social issues you see.

People want to play a game and have fun and I get that and agree to an extent but there also NEED to be skill related barriers in order to advance to more difficult content.

It’s not fair to ANYONE to give a noob/bad player 350+ gear from no-skill content and then essentially “lure” them into content that’s too difficult for them to handle.

It’s not fair to those players who quickly get in way over their head and it’s not fair to the players who get stuck grouping with them and it leads to a lot of bad feelings for everybody.


I guess ultimately then, how do we offer rewards that players can be satisfied with without inflating them too far beyond their skills?
What he says is accurate.

You can gear to a reasonably high iLvL doing content that requires minimum/no effort - Warfronts, World Quests/LFR (thanks to Warforging & Titanforging), etc.

If you want upgrades from that point on, you need to branch off to more challenging content, like raiding or M+.

However, the gear rewards of low M+ or Normal difficulty are often too low iLvL wise to be considered upgrades.

As a result, people are jumping in mid M+ levels or Heroics directly, and hit a wall:

i.e: That content wasn't intended to be your starting point if you don't already have the experience necessary - you're supposed to start with lower key levels or Normal raids, and work your way up from there. However, the gearing curve suggests you shouldn't be doing that starter content at all.
I still haven't forgotten his video that people spammed on the forums throughout MoP and WoD, wherein he basically complained that the game wasn't hard and grindy enough.

You'll forgive me if i completely disregard all of his opinions, and those of his video pushing followers.
11/02/2018 09:54 AMPosted by Averax
I still haven't forgotten his video that people spammed on the forums throughout MoP and WoD, wherein he basically complained that the game wasn't hard and grindy enough.

You'll forgive me if i completely disregard all of his opinions, and those of his video pushing followers.


So you didnt watch the video and have nothing to discuss, k.
11/02/2018 08:21 AMPosted by Yonbi
Don't lead off with "some youtuber" said blah .... it diminishes your argument completely.

That being said - there is something to be said for inflated ilvls pushing you into content you have no business being in. It is the same reason raider.io exists.

I know it's anecdotal, but I ran a Atal'Dazar +4 with a 360 warrior who refused to move out during Soulrend. When I called him out he said "stop micro-managing, just tank.... if you need to pop cd's to survive that's on you". His dps was about on par wiht my 345 pally tank. Prior to that, we wiped on Alun'za since they clearly didn't know how the transfusion mechanic worked.

TL;DR ilvl alone makes people think they are entitled to a position on a team clearing content they don't belong in.

You can realistically hit 350+ through just warfronts. This is content that is literally impossible to fail at. From an ilvl standpoint that puts you on par with M+4-6 gear. Even if you've never completed any of the dungeons on any difficulty before.

That is not good for anyone.


Dude, last night. Went into a M0 Underrot with a group averaging 355ilvl. The tank was 360, and I the healer was 373ilvl.

The tank insists on going down the side with double matron mobs. I'm putting out 45k hps and after 5 pulls and 5 wipes I'm done. He refuses to take the other direction, there is no way in hell I can heal the group that is literally all standing in the avoidable cleaves, used not a single interrupt and the only CC that was used was my own leg sweep and my own paralyze.

He gets angry and asks why I'm not healing, I link the meter showing my 45k hps. He just rage quits.

Raid geared players without a single concept of CC, interrupting or aoe damage avoidance...They couldn't even get past the 3rd pull in Under Rot 0.

That's the kind of !@#$ Preach is talking about.
11/02/2018 10:02 AMPosted by Minusthemonk
11/02/2018 08:21 AMPosted by Yonbi
Don't lead off with "some youtuber" said blah .... it diminishes your argument completely.

That being said - there is something to be said for inflated ilvls pushing you into content you have no business being in. It is the same reason raider.io exists.

I know it's anecdotal, but I ran a Atal'Dazar +4 with a 360 warrior who refused to move out during Soulrend. When I called him out he said "stop micro-managing, just tank.... if you need to pop cd's to survive that's on you". His dps was about on par wiht my 345 pally tank. Prior to that, we wiped on Alun'za since they clearly didn't know how the transfusion mechanic worked.

TL;DR ilvl alone makes people think they are entitled to a position on a team clearing content they don't belong in.

You can realistically hit 350+ through just warfronts. This is content that is literally impossible to fail at. From an ilvl standpoint that puts you on par with M+4-6 gear. Even if you've never completed any of the dungeons on any difficulty before.

That is not good for anyone.


Dude, last night. Went into a M0 Underrot with a group averaging 355ilvl. The tank was 360, and I the healer was 373ilvl.

The tank insists on going down the side with double matron mobs. I'm putting out 45k hps and after 5 pulls and 5 wipes I'm done. He refuses to take the other direction, there is no way in hell I can heal the group that is literally all standing in the avoidable cleaves, used not a single interrupt and the only CC that was used was my own leg sweep and my own paralyze.

He gets angry and asks why I'm not healing, I link the meter showing my 45k hps. He just rage quits.

Raid geared players without a single concept of CC, interrupting or aoe damage avoidance...They couldn't even get past the 3rd pull in Under Rot 0.

That's the kind of !@#$ Preach is talking about.


The worst part is when you try to discuss how to handle these things you get called an elitist or other insults. I successfully pug because I have experience, many dont want to listen when someone tries to teach.
He's a decent analyst of the game and he views WoW from more of an old school, hardcore view. In the video he explains why some players with high ilvl struggle to do certain affixes in m+, which is supposed to be for mostly for casuals anyway (except at the highest keys).
My thought is that I don't really find most youtubers worth discussing.
Preach has had some great guide videos, and he's pretty good about separating the opinions from the useful stuff. (Which is nice, because I tend to stop paying attention when he gets to the opinions.)

He's not wrong about the learning curve problem for mid-range M+, though. A lot of people seem to be gearing to the point where they need 7+ (or more) dungeons to get upgrades and then hitting a wall on that content because they haven't had to deal with mechanics before.

I rarely run with anything but friends or guildies anymore for that reason - healing pugs lately has me swearing like a sailor with Tourette Syndrome.
11/02/2018 10:06 AMPosted by Danielrather
11/02/2018 10:02 AMPosted by Minusthemonk
...

Dude, last night. Went into a M0 Underrot with a group averaging 355ilvl. The tank was 360, and I the healer was 373ilvl.

The tank insists on going down the side with double matron mobs. I'm putting out 45k hps and after 5 pulls and 5 wipes I'm done. He refuses to take the other direction, there is no way in hell I can heal the group that is literally all standing in the avoidable cleaves, used not a single interrupt and the only CC that was used was my own leg sweep and my own paralyze.

He gets angry and asks why I'm not healing, I link the meter showing my 45k hps. He just rage quits.

Raid geared players without a single concept of CC, interrupting or aoe damage avoidance...They couldn't even get past the 3rd pull in Under Rot 0.

That's the kind of !@#$ Preach is talking about.


The worst part is when you try to discuss how to handle these things you get called an elitist or other insults. I successfully pug because I have experience, many dont want to listen when someone tries to teach.


I just wanted my last mythic for the weekly quest. They had a 350ilvl requirement for a M0. LoL, burned.

I had better luck finding the groups literally advertising they were taking a guild carry or friend and giving them what ever gear i got. Those groups at lease seem to know what they are getting into and are prepared to make it as painless as possible.
11/02/2018 08:53 AMPosted by Demoses
I could easily see where the additional difficulty would be almost welcome if there was not say the timed "Go, Go, Hurry, Hurry!" aspect of it. If you could plan and work out your cc's and pulls and help others to learn and or you yourself take time to learn it, that the Experience may be more enjoyable.

Yes, this so much. Give me an “M+” dungeon that’s long, naturally hard (e.g. its difficulty doesn’t come from arbitrary rotating duct-taped-on mechanics), and has no timer please. Higher keys would boost HP+damage of all mobs+bosses and enable traps and other D&D-derived difficulty boosters.
11/02/2018 10:25 AMPosted by Chroesire
11/02/2018 08:53 AMPosted by Demoses
I could easily see where the additional difficulty would be almost welcome if there was not say the timed "Go, Go, Hurry, Hurry!" aspect of it. If you could plan and work out your cc's and pulls and help others to learn and or you yourself take time to learn it, that the Experience may be more enjoyable.

Yes, this so much. Give me an “M+” dungeon that’s long, naturally hard (e.g. its difficulty doesn’t come from arbitrary rotating duct-taped-on mechanics), and has no timer please. Higher keys would boost HP+damage of all mobs+bosses and enable traps and other D&D-derived difficulty boosters.


I don't understand what you mean here. I really don't want to respond because I am not sure if I understand what your point is.
1. There are a lot more trash mechanics, there should be, amen for some freakin' substance. My opinion, yes there are and we actually have abilities that we threw off of our bars and didn't use cause the last IDK year of Legion or so got really face rolly and we didn't use them. Now we have to and for the most part it doesn't happen because, excuses. Everyone has to retrain their brains to use their abilities again.

2. GCD- I 100% agree.

3. Tanks-Yea no, they aren't created equally at all. What happened to Druids? They used to be some of my favorite to heal and took a big fat kick to the n*ts and it's gross. I have yet to really see a pally, Druid, or warrior doing any type of higher key. I don't know many healers that want to heal them in one either. Granted I'm sure they are out there, I just don't see them much.

4. WF/TF/Loot world providing past learning curve-Yea it shouldn't be a thing but it is and cool now everyone has a special shiny and you can't tell who is good and who is bad. Having said that I put together groups sometimes based of just gear rather than bother with .io and we have literally 3/4 the population running around in amazing gear but can't DPS to save their lives let alone interrupt. They don't want us to use .io to let them in our groups and if we don't use that we are using their ilevel, so sure we use ilevel and add them and guess what, haha, I can't play according to my gear and your key is screwed. Jokes on you. You can not judge someone based off of gear anymore. He's right and the truth hurts. You are geared past faceroll and go into a key and guess what, faceroll no more.

5. Blaming everyone else and not doing content-We are doing the same thing in BFA, as he said, has anyone seen the forums, oh yea that's why we are here. It's the beginning of a new Xpac with some real crap changes to GCD that are not to fun to deal with let alone all the changes made to tanks, not many want to deal with it anymore. A lot of people that are capable of doing higher keys have their own groups and don't pug which leaves everyone else and that is not their fault it's everyone elses fault they can't push their own key.

6. The affixes don't belong on 2's they need to go back where they were. What a dumb thing to do and I'm speaking for the GP when I say this, they don't bug me much but a 2 shouldn't have an affix on it, come the heck on.

IDK who this person is but he's on point. People don't like him clearly cause he's a streamer, he has followers and an opinion etc and so on but these people are the very people he's talking about and the truth hurts. They also really aren't doing much content to even have an opinion yet they have the biggest.

Rather than go try and make themselves better they cry in the forums that they can't get better and it's everyone else's fault. Insert 5 year old stomping feet here, "OMG Blizz, you gave me all this gear and promised me I could do good things but the smart ones know how to see I'm not good and won't let me in". Yea, no.
I don't care.
Reported for advertising.
11/02/2018 12:30 PMPosted by Mossflower
Reported for advertising.


reported for trolling

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