How's fire going into 8.1?

Mage
I'm currently only sitting at 363 ilvl, and definitely not the best Azerite traits, but I'm struggling to be competitive in Heroic Uldir or Mythic+.

Any insights into current versus 8.1, or resources I should be checking out to better min max?
I think fire will be fine, and will only get better. Looking at your profile I can suggest a couple things.

You are using phoenix flames instead of flame on, which pulls ahead because it allows for the most pyroblasts throughout the fight.

Fire at this gear level lives and dies by mastery as ignite makes up a large % of our dmg. You're mastery is currently a bit low, and you should see significant improvement by getting more or it. I have the gear for both frost and fire and I lose almost 2k dps if i forget to change it all out when i swap to fire.

Another thing to point out is the importance of our opener. Fire is super unforgiving, especially with the opener, or outside the opener if you make a mistake or caste, say, a scorch when you thought you had to move and you didn't. There is very little you can do as fire to catch back up outside of searing touch execute. I would suggest looking up openers on icy veins and practicing it.

Don't forget that Combust comes off CD multiple times during a fight as well. Try and save a couple fireblasts and meteor for it if it's close to coming off cd.

The next thing you may want to consider is using raidbots to sim yourself. There are a ton of options, from finding the best gear in your bag to stat priority generators to use with pawn (which I still have to eye but it helps you figure out what will benefit you the most).

DPS also depends on the fight as well. Mechanics are more important than numbers, and any ranged character can have lower overall dps with all the movement fights happening.

Being familiar with the fights helps too. I was in an 8+Freehold and was avg 13k on bosses (14.3 on sky capt, 13.7 on harlen, 11ish on 2nd boss cuz it kept resetting). Then i tried a Siege which I'm not familiar with and was doing 10-11k cuz i kept freaking out and derping. :P

I think my frost is still better and more consistent and forgiving,but like I said, fire will get even better with gear.

Hopefully this helps :)
11/06/2018 08:40 AMPosted by Fenloriesh
You are using phoenix flames instead of flame on, which pulls ahead because it allows for the most pyroblasts throughout the fight.


PF starts pulling ahead with adds and is relatively close outside of that.

11/06/2018 08:40 AMPosted by Fenloriesh
Fire at this gear level lives and dies by mastery as ignite makes up a large % of our dmg.


Not really accurate. Secondaries are all close for ST and are dependent on your profile, not sure where this dominant mastery idea has come from. t22 sims have mastery only topping on 2t (haste 4t+)

@OP sim yourself, reference altered-time and discord for rotations, talents, etc.

According to t22 sims, firestarter and pyroclasm are edging out for top talents, but we'll have to wait to see it all in practice.
11/06/2018 09:05 AMPosted by Coverfire
11/06/2018 08:40 AMPosted by Fenloriesh
You are using phoenix flames instead of flame on, which pulls ahead because it allows for the most pyroblasts throughout the fight.


PF starts pulling ahead with adds and is relatively close outside of that.

11/06/2018 08:40 AMPosted by Fenloriesh
Fire at this gear level lives and dies by mastery as ignite makes up a large % of our dmg.


Not really accurate. Secondaries are all close for ST and are dependent on your profile, not sure where this dominant mastery idea has come from. t22 sims have mastery only topping on 2t (haste 4t+)

@OP sim yourself, reference altered-time and discord for rotations, talents, etc.

According to t22 sims, firestarter and pyroclasm are edging out for top talents, but we'll have to wait to see it all in practice.


The information I have given is based on my sims and my experience and guides such as icy veins and altered time.

To say what I am said is inaccurate is inaccurate. You have to SIM YOURSELF to really know.

My sims told me to stack mastery. My sim also tells me that Phoenix Flames is about a 500-700 dps loss. It also says that rune of power if an 800dps gain, but I don't use it.

When I started to drop my haste(16% with frost gear, ~12% now) and brought my mastery up to 15%, I got a significant boost to my DPS and have even gotten with 400dps of my sim dps (14.7k).

NOW that I have 15% mastery, my sims say they are all about even. My comment to the OP was that his Mastery was low atm.

Please don't disregard other peoples opinions because they don't match your own. Maybe lots of haste works for you in fire. It didn't for me. Mastery might work for OP. He needs to sim it out, and I have offered these resources.
11/06/2018 09:51 AMPosted by Fenloriesh
11/06/2018 09:05 AMPosted by Coverfire
...

PF starts pulling ahead with adds and is relatively close outside of that.

...

Not really accurate. Secondaries are all close for ST and are dependent on your profile, not sure where this dominant mastery idea has come from. t22 sims have mastery only topping on 2t (haste 4t+)

@OP sim yourself, reference altered-time and discord for rotations, talents, etc.

According to t22 sims, firestarter and pyroclasm are edging out for top talents, but we'll have to wait to see it all in practice.


The information I have given is based on my sims and my experience and guides such as icy veins and altered time.

To say what I am said is inaccurate is inaccurate. You have to SIM YOURSELF to really know.

My sims told me to stack mastery. My sim also tells me that Phoenix Flames is about a 500-700 dps loss. It also says that rune of power if an 800dps gain, but I don't use it.

When I started to drop my haste(16% with frost gear, ~12% now) and brought my mastery up to 15%, I got a significant boost to my DPS and have even gotten with 400dps of my sim dps (14.7k).

NOW that I have 15% mastery, my sims say they are all about even. My comment to the OP was that his Mastery was low atm.

Please don't disregard other peoples opinions because they don't match your own. Maybe lots of haste works for you in fire. It didn't for me. Mastery might work for OP. He needs to sim it out, and I have offered these resources.


Unfortunately, opinions have no merit in math. You are correct in saying that it's relative to personal sims (as I also said), which runs counter to the claim that "fire lives and dies by mastery." The latter suggests an absolutism. PF is a loss on patchwerk for sure, and running FO as a staple is fine (and often appropriate), but PF has potential to pull ahead in cleave/aoe, as does AF.
Exaggeration is lost on you apparently.

Lets talk about math. A sim is math just as much as paper math. either way you can adjust the values and test for different instances ie patchwork, hectic cleave and custom.

Either way math still relies on a perfect world where you get to stand still and free-cast. That isn't what happens.

From the resources that we have suggested:

"Flame On should be your go-to choice on raid bosses, as it allows for the most Hot Streak Icon Hot Streaks throughout a fight, for both single target and AoE."

"Phoenix Flames is great AoE damage on short AoE durations, which makes it especially useful in Mythic+ or fights with occasional add waves."

- https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/fire-mage-pve-dps-spec-builds-talents

"Flame On is the default choice on both single target and AOE, the reduced cooldown on Fire Blast provides us with more Hot Streaks over the course of a fight, and the 3 charges increase our Combustion damage."

"Phoenix Flames is currently outclassed by Flame On on single target and sustained AOE. However it drastically increases our burst damage on AOE, so it may be worth considering if this is something that you find you need."

- https://www.altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6917

Flame on makes or fire blast 8 sec's and gain and extra charge. Overall, at least in most fights, it leads to more hot streaks which = more flame strikes or pyro's over the course of a fight. You will almost always have a fire blast to convert and it helps with combustion "phases".

PF on the other hand has a 30 sec CD per charge and a travel time, which make it awkward for converting heating up. You cast it either, every 30 secs, save them up or blow them all in your combust/AOE. If the CD was lower then it would be better, but that CD leads to less casts of it over the fight. There are also not adds constantly being up to fully benefit.

Instead of trying to argue, you should be constructive and ask the OP how they use PF and make suggestions to its proper use.
TLDR, he isn't arguing, he's right. And he didn't need a giant paragraph of nonsense to be right either.
11/07/2018 05:32 AMPosted by Fenloriesh
Exaggeration is lost on you apparently.

Lets talk about math. A sim is math just as much as paper math.


I'll be honest with you, I didn't read past this. Play however you want, however don't spread incorrect information.
( Pawn: v1: "Fenloriesh - Fire (Raidbots)": Class=Mage, Spec=Fire, Intellect=1.86, CritRating=1.74, HasteRating=1.80, MasteryRating=1.26, Versatility=1.68 )

What part of this tells you to stack mastery, your worst stat? Don't worry, i'll wait.
Honestly you are all wrong. The original advice WAS the most right though. Saying to only stack any stat is wrong, as the original advice pointed out you need to sim yourself. Mastery is one of our strongest stats atm though. Here is my stat weights right now.

( Pawn: v1: "kimbustion - Fire (Raidbots)": Class=Mage, Spec=Fire, Intellect=1.94, CritRating=1.50, HasteRating=1.61, MasteryRating=1.43, Versatility=1.64 )

That does show mastery as my worst stat to have atm. I also have 18.27% mastery (1178) compared to OPs 12% (529). So he DOES need mastery right now..badly actually. I am currently simming 16k dps and pulling around 14k average 15-15.5k on a good parse. Ignite is by far my biggest damage dealer.

11/07/2018 08:29 PMPosted by Twitchyk
( Pawn: v1: "Fenloriesh - Fire (Raidbots)": Class=Mage, Spec=Fire, Intellect=1.86, CritRating=1.74, HasteRating=1.80, MasteryRating=1.26, Versatility=1.68 )

What part of this tells you to stack mastery, your worst stat? Don't worry, i'll wait.


( Pawn: v1: "Twitchyk - Fire (Raidbots)": Class=Mage, Spec=Fire, Intellect=2.00, CritRating=1.71, HasteRating=1.17, MasteryRating=1.71, Versatility=1.81 )

There is your stat weights btw. Low and behold besides versatility you need mastery just as much as any other stat and your highest stat is still ONLY .10 higher than mastery. You are not simming much higher than me considering that you have 3? pieces of mythic gear.

11/05/2018 12:18 PMPosted by Khairo
I'm currently only sitting at 363 ilvl, and definitely not the best Azerite traits, but I'm struggling to be competitive in Heroic Uldir or Mythic+.

Any insights into current versus 8.1, or resources I should be checking out to better min max?


Atm it seems like a lot of your gear is through pvp and the free pieces you get for doing warfronts. That means its not very optimized. Your current stat weights are

Intellect 1.81
Versatility 1.46
Mastery 1.36
Haste 1.29
Critical Strike 1.24

Using meteor/rop build mastery/vers should be a focus. THAT DOES NOT MEAN TO STACK ONLY THOSE. simming will help you get a balance. I guarantee if you get 1-2% more vers mastery will be your highest stat needed by far. I recommend getting rid of some of that crit in favor for vers/mastery items. Change out that ghuun trinket if possible.

Fire is one of those spec that changes quickly as you gear. Sim after every piece of gear you get.

IMO meteor/rop is the most consistent/best talent choices. There are arguments for pyroclasm. For raiding talents will change on a per boss rotation. To have the best cookie cutter build then you want flame on and not phoenix flames. Mythic+ always run phoenix flames even on tyrannical imo.

If you like all the crit you have then you can go with the pyroclasm talent set up that benefits from that much crit.

TLDR: Work on opener (its a huge part of fire), focus on 0 downtime as fire (scorch/shimmer should mean damn near 0 downtime), ALWAYS use meteor with a RoP, consistently sim yourself for stat weights. Flame blast/phoenix flames should never be capped on charges unless very close to combustion.
11/08/2018 10:15 AMPosted by Kimbustion
Honestly you are all wrong. The original advice WAS the most right though. Saying to only stack any stat is wrong, as the original advice pointed out you need to sim yourself. Mastery is one of our strongest stats atm though. Here is my stat weights right now.

( Pawn: v1: "kimbustion - Fire (Raidbots)": Class=Mage, Spec=Fire, Intellect=1.94, CritRating=1.50, HasteRating=1.61, MasteryRating=1.43, Versatility=1.64 )

That does show mastery as my worst stat to have atm. I also have 18.27% mastery (1178) compared to OPs 12% (529). So he DOES need mastery right now..badly actually. I am currently simming 16k dps and pulling around 14k average 15-15.5k on a good parse. Ignite is by far my biggest damage dealer.

11/07/2018 08:29 PMPosted by Twitchyk
( Pawn: v1: "Fenloriesh - Fire (Raidbots)": Class=Mage, Spec=Fire, Intellect=1.86, CritRating=1.74, HasteRating=1.80, MasteryRating=1.26, Versatility=1.68 )

What part of this tells you to stack mastery, your worst stat? Don't worry, i'll wait.


( Pawn: v1: "Twitchyk - Fire (Raidbots)": Class=Mage, Spec=Fire, Intellect=2.00, CritRating=1.71, HasteRating=1.17, MasteryRating=1.71, Versatility=1.81 )

There is your stat weights btw. Low and behold besides versatility you need mastery just as much as any other stat and your highest stat is still ONLY .10 higher than mastery. You are not simming much higher than me considering that you have 3? pieces of mythic gear.

11/05/2018 12:18 PMPosted by Khairo
I'm currently only sitting at 363 ilvl, and definitely not the best Azerite traits, but I'm struggling to be competitive in Heroic Uldir or Mythic+.

Any insights into current versus 8.1, or resources I should be checking out to better min max?


Atm it seems like a lot of your gear is through pvp and the free pieces you get for doing warfronts. That means its not very optimized. Your current stat weights are

Intellect 1.81
Versatility 1.46
Mastery 1.36
Haste 1.29
Critical Strike 1.24

Using meteor/rop build mastery/vers should be a focus. THAT DOES NOT MEAN TO STACK ONLY THOSE. simming will help you get a balance. I guarantee if you get 1-2% more vers mastery will be your highest stat needed by far. I recommend getting rid of some of that crit in favor for vers/mastery items. Change out that ghuun trinket if possible.

Fire is one of those spec that changes quickly as you gear. Sim after every piece of gear you get.

IMO meteor/rop is the most consistent/best talent choices. There are arguments for pyroclasm. For raiding talents will change on a per boss rotation. To have the best cookie cutter build then you want flame on and not phoenix flames. Mythic+ always run phoenix flames even on tyrannical imo.

If you like all the crit you have then you can go with the pyroclasm talent set up that benefits from that much crit.

TLDR: Work on opener (its a huge part of fire), focus on 0 downtime as fire (scorch/shimmer should mean damn near 0 downtime), ALWAYS use meteor with a RoP, consistently sim yourself for stat weights. Flame blast/phoenix flames should never be capped on charges unless very close to combustion.


Wow this sure was a long post where you essentially reiterate what I said 2 days ago in a single sentence:

11/06/2018 09:05 AMPosted by Coverfire
Secondaries are all close for ST and are dependent on your profile,
Yeah lol, and my weights are literally equal.
PF starts pulling ahead with adds and is relatively close outside of that.

To add to this, it pulls ahead during burst wave-type AoE and not sustained AoE. Because sustained AoE isn't really a realistic scenario, M+ and add-type fights tend toward Phoenix's Flames if you do not have Blaster Master.

*Quotes never function properly :l
Appreciate the help here. Looks like I've got to download Pawn ASAP.

Bummed on the G'huun recommendation as that's actually a badass ilvl trinket I just got compared to the rest of my gear :(

Thanks guys!
11/08/2018 06:07 PMPosted by Khairo
Appreciate the help here. Looks like I've got to download Pawn ASAP.

Stat weights are useless for gearing. You should instead use RaidBots Topgear, as stat weights do not account for the exchange of stats, only the average per-point value of the selected stat.
11/08/2018 06:14 PMPosted by Keestus
11/08/2018 06:07 PMPosted by Khairo
Appreciate the help here. Looks like I've got to download Pawn ASAP.

Stat weights are useless for gearing. You should instead use RaidBots Topgear, as stat weights do not account for the exchange of stats, only the average per-point value of the selected stat.

Raidbots gives you the stat weights... You just have to figure out what yours are every time gear changes.

Sure, simming the full gear set is better, but you at least can tell if it's worth simming ahead of time.
11/11/2018 12:10 AMPosted by Mageski
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Stat weights are useless for gearing. You should instead use RaidBots Topgear, as stat weights do not account for the exchange of stats, only the average per-point value of the selected stat.

Raidbots gives you the stat weights... You just have to figure out what yours are every time gear changes.

Sure, simming the full gear set is better, but you at least can tell if it's worth simming ahead of time.

You can't tell if it's worth simming ahead of time with stat-weights, especially with Array active. Stat-weights are the average per-point value of +238 of a selected stat. They do not account for anything beyond that, making them only useful for enchanting and gemming; even then, you can sim your enchant and gem combinations so stat-weights aren't really recommended for that either.

It is not uncommon for freshly simmed stat-weights to set you in a loop where two gearsets' stat-weights will value the other set higher than itself. If you want to avoid all the hassle and speculation you can just sim upgrades directly. RaidBots even has a Gear Compare page where you can select any item in the game and its item-level, sockets, etc. so you don't have to fetch item IDs anymore.
11/11/2018 07:08 AMPosted by Keestus
You can't tell if it's worth simming ahead of time with stat-weights, especially with Array active.


It mostly comes into play during raid when you're quickly deciding whether or not to roll on gear that someone is passing and you don't have time to run a sim.

When stat weights are close, it's easy for me to tell that an item of higher ilvl is almost definitely going to be a win. If they aren't close, I know that ilvl may be a factor and I should sim it. You still sim it eventually, but for making quick calls, weights are absolutely useful.
11/11/2018 11:06 AMPosted by Mageski
11/11/2018 07:08 AMPosted by Keestus
You can't tell if it's worth simming ahead of time with stat-weights, especially with Array active.


It mostly comes into play during raid when you're quickly deciding whether or not to roll on gear that someone is passing and you don't have time to run a sim.

When stat weights are close, it's easy for me to tell that an item of higher ilvl is almost definitely going to be a win. If they aren't close, I know that ilvl may be a factor and I should sim it. You still sim it eventually, but for making quick calls, weights are absolutely useful.

You could run a local SimC if you don't have RaidBots premium to skip the line and sim the difference very quickly.

copy=NewItem
trinket1=",id=37580,ilevel=385,gems=40haste"


You can set this up and run it before the first trash pack dies, or likely before the first trash pack is even engaged on the way to the next boss.
I know fire is a little eh right now but its still my fav spec. It's took some work but I got it to a decent place and I'm sure as time goes on with gear it will get better.

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