Why Stormheim is enough reason for War

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Let’s take a quick hypothetical here, and say Genn really got the drop on Sylvanas, rather than having to take an arrow just to grab the lantern. He kills her then and there, making his escape from and/or incapacitating the Horde PC.

Meanwhile, in the Sanctum of Light, Heart of Azeroth, etc... word comes in as the Highlord, Farseer are in Council with their champions: “The Warchief is dead! She was assassinated by Alliance forces lead by Genn Greymane in Stormheim not a few hours ago!”

Everyone is shocked. “What?!” Questions the Archmage/Grandmaster. “Surely King Wrynn could not have endorsed this! Especially not during a time of crisis. How did this happen?”

*Further Explanation*

“You mean Anduin has said nothing?

.....

Greymane was seen just this morning at Anduin’s side, with a look of satisfaction on his face?”

I don’t know about the rest of you, but if I was an older Orc Farseer, I wouldn’t be trusting the Draenei under my guidance to be forgetting Shattrath right now, even in the face of the Legion.
Beyond the fact that SI:7 controlled by Dreadlord Shaw was intimately involved in feeding information about "suspicious Horde troop movements" to racist Rogers (who damned if she somehow continues to survive) and Genn (who was in a Worgen blood-rage after Varian's death); bluntly ... Sylvie could have really screwed the pooch with that Stormheim stunt of hers. While their motive's were !@#$, I will not argue with the results, stopping her was a good thing.

The first thing she does after being made Warchief was %^-*ing off on her own, with ONLY her Forsaken (who knew next to nothing of why they were there) to accost and attempt to enslave a Titan Keeper; after she made a secretive deal with another extremely dangerous, vindictive Titan Keeper (who if I didn't know any better has been effected by the Curse of Flesh with all her tentacles). Sylvie's little stunt could have cost Azeroth some really potent allies against the Legion.

!@#$, Eyir STILL hates the Horde for that move Sylvie tried to pull; could you imagine if she had actually succeeded what Odyn's reaction would have been?!
And the rest of the Horde from that point(long before Teldrassil) were ostensibly loyal to the appointed Warchief. This isn’t about a faction that on its own amounts to 1 order hall, But every Horde member who’d ever done wrong against a current member of the Alliance losing any ability to trust their allies in their respective Orders. And cohesion inside these orders falling apart as a result, of not sparking an actual war in the process.

I can’t imagine the majority of the Horde being EAGER to hand the survival of the world over to the Legon by abandoning the Alliance champions in the middle of the invasion. However, any trust brought about by that threat? Gone. If any member of the Alliance could attack and kill a member of the Horde who they had a grudge with, and go unpunished by Anduin *Peacemonger* Wrynn? Why would any Horde member with a shred of loyalty and political savvy ness be able to trust their lives to Alliance members at ANY OTHER TIME if not during a war for the fate of the planet against the Burning Legion itself?!
Stormheim was as justified as Sylvanas' quest for revenge against Arthas. Why didn't she respect his sovereignty??? Completely uncool of her to go after the monster who razed her kingdom, butchered her people, and personally took everything from her.
Blizzard decided no NPCs should care about it. The Alliance never mention it, and the Horde BARELY mention it like once.

Anything bad happen to the Alliance? WAR CRIME! WE DEMAND VENGENCE!

Anything bad happen to the Horde? They are a trash monster race, they deserved it.
11/07/2018 02:37 PMPosted by Khazlei
I can’t imagine the majority of the Horde being EAGER to hand the survival of the world over to the Legon by abandoning the Alliance champions in the middle of the invasion. However, any trust brought about by that threat? Gone. If any member of the Alliance could attack and kill a member of the Horde who they had a grudge with, and go unpunished by Anduin *Peacemonger* Wrynn? Why would any Horde member with a shred of loyalty and political savvy ness be able to trust their lives to Alliance members at ANY OTHER TIME if not during a war for the fate of the planet against the Burning Legion itself?!


Did you just suggest that if Sylvie had destroyed relations with the Titan Keepers (had she succeeded in enslaving Eyir) that the Horde would have entrusted the safety of the world to the Legion? Also, Sylvanas actively committed treason when she explicitly went against Garrosh's (her Warchief's) orders and used Blight against Gilneas. Notice how she wasn't "punished"?

Not to mention, even if Genn and Rogers did not know what she was doing; it doesn't change the fact that Sylvie broke the trust between the factions when her first act as Warchief was to actually endanger the battle against the Legion. She could have lost the races of Azeroth the cooperation of the Titan Keepers; and potentially even denied them the Aegis of Aggramar (something Odyn had!)
11/07/2018 02:42 PMPosted by Hahahahahaha
Anything bad happen to the Horde? They are a trash monster race, they deserved it.


I mean, when the goal is to enslave an entire race of Angelic beings who were helping us combat the Burning Legion, then doesn't that make the Horde, or at Least Sylvanas and the Forsaken, trash monster races who deserved what they got in Stormheim?
At the time, there were Legion sized fish to fry. After that was done, the tensions were lowered enough that starting a war so soon after the Legion conflict was, well, undesirable. Saurfang notes that everyone was pretty much just wanting to rest a bit, and both factions had lost significant portions of their navies.

All things considered, Sylvanas probably wasn't in too much danger of dying from the attack. When it came down to her and Genn, she outperforms him in combat, even if he foiled her actual objective.
11/07/2018 02:40 PMPosted by Serevèn
Stormheim was as justified as Sylvanas' quest for revenge against Arthas. Why didn't she respect his sovereignty??? Completely uncool of her to go after the monster who razed her kingdom, butchered her people, and personally took everything from her.

arthas was not being forced to do what he did. He was a willing participant. Sure he lost his soul, but even after he merged with the LK, HE took control. Not to mention was evil FAR before he became a death knight.

Sylvanas was being pressured by garrosh, who had control of the horde and forces in the UC to mindlessly charge the walls of gilneas. A nation that closed its doors on the fleeing citizens of lordaeron and sicked worgen on the undead (forsaken and scourge). So she used better tactics to ensure victory, and accidentally killed liam in the process.

Genn should have been mad at Garrosh. And Genn didn't just target sylvanas, he was attacking the forsaken fighting the demons while he was at it.
11/07/2018 02:16 PMPosted by Khazlei
Let’s take a quick hypothetical here, and say Genn really got the drop on Sylvanas, rather than having to take an arrow just to grab the lantern. He kills her then and there, making his escape from and/or incapacitating the Horde PC.

Meanwhile, in the Sanctum of Light, Heart of Azeroth, etc... word comes in as the Highlord, Farseer are in Council with their champions: “The Warchief is dead! She was assassinated by Alliance forces lead by Genn Greymane in Stormheim not a few hours ago!”

Everyone is shocked. “What?!” Questions the Archmage/Grandmaster. “Surely King Wrynn could not have endorsed this! Especially not during a time of crisis. How did this happen?”

*Further Explanation*

“You mean Anduin has said nothing?

.....

Greymane was seen just this morning at Anduin’s side, with a look of satisfaction on his face?”

I don’t know about the rest of you, but if I was an older Orc Farseer, I wouldn’t be trusting the Draenei under my guidance to be forgetting Shattrath right now, even in the face of the Legion.


After all the crap the Alliance has pulled, including this, the justification for a war with the Alliance was there. IRL, nations have gone to war for less.

It wasn't until Teldrassil that Sylvanas became a villain. (And even then, the difference between her and people like Jaina was a matter of degree.)
If Sylvanas wasn’t off on her own doing something CLEARLY EVIL in the middle of a demon invasion, I’d say that she would be justified.

Unfortunately, that’s exactly what she did. Run off on her own to continue her quest for self-preservation by making a deal with an evil sea witch to give her an evil lantern to then forcefully enslave one of Odyn’s most powerful minions and by extension, our ally. Not only that, but she could have literally blown the entire mission for that BS. If Odyn, the guy who’s Aegis we needed, found out that we were trying to steal his most prized Val’kyr from him I don’t think he would have given us the Aegis. No Aegis, means that portal from the Tomb of Sargeras would not have been closed meaning we’d literally just get boxed in the tomb with no way out except fighting an endless army of demons until we either eventually tire out and succumb to our endless foes or fight through them, leave, and still fail to close the portal meaning more keep coming. In short, we eventually lose.

Seriously, another fine example of how the story intentionally bends over backwards to make Sylvanas seem smarter than she actually is, even when she clearly acts like an idiot, it blows over like it was no ones buisiness. Heck, she doesn’t even tell the rest of the Horde what happened OTHER than that Genn attacked her. Not why she was there or what she was doing.
You could also add in Gallywix's attempted murder to things that also get swept under the rug for some reason or another. Really not sure why that's not a bigger plot point in the overall war narrative - even he doesn't bring it up to the Horde PC.
You could of just said the Alliance attacked the Horde and that would have been reason enough.
11/07/2018 02:54 PMPosted by Granfaloon
Sylvanas was being pressured by garrosh
That poor darling. If only she had the stones to turn to someone else for help if she objected. Shame she lacked the moral courage Saurfang now has.
If Stormheim was the primary reason for going to war I would have been a lot more on board.

Let me be clear though. I did not like what Sylvanas was doing in Stormheim. I actually felt very much lied to and betrayed when I finally realized what Sylvanas intended to do. She used my trust in her judgement to attempt to do something I'd never have been okay with if I knew what the end goal actually was.

That doesn't justify Genn trying to assassinate the Warchief in the middle of a Legion invasion when he didn't even truly know what she was doing. He didn't even wait to gather more intelligence, he went full tilt into a battle that got the Alliance's airship destroyed and cost hundreds of lives on both sides.

Stormheim was ultimately an actually morally ambiguous event that would have been the perfect jumping off point for the current conflict. Bonus points if one of Sylvanas' war goals was to go after Greymane's wife who was staying in Teldrassil and taking her as a valuable and easy to contain political prisoner.

How much more interesting would this war be if instead of burning Teldrassil Sylvanas had kidnapped Greymane's wife? That would have been more than enough justification for the Alliance to fight, and while it's a cruel thing to do it's not something that can't be justified by the Horde playerbase.
11/07/2018 03:15 PMPosted by Serevèn
11/07/2018 02:54 PMPosted by Granfaloon
Sylvanas was being pressured by garrosh
That poor darling. If only she had the stones to turn to someone else for help if she objected. Shame she lacked the moral courage Saurfang now has.

She did end up objecting to the things Garrosh was doing and she didn't leave the Horde and unwittingly become an Alliance pawn to do so. She worked with the other Horde leaders. If Saurfang had that kind of moral courage he would have left with the Horde leaders during the Stormwind Extraction and tried to rally them against her. Instead, he choose to stay, sulk, and then wait for Anduin to release him.
Eh.

A Good War gives Stormheim proper weight in my eyes, even if the player base on the Story Forums is closing their echo chamber to it.

Blizzard can't slap us in the face with it. They have simply stated it. That's at least conclusive and consistent. Which is asking a lot these days.

I mean, I would have preferred a Forsaken-themed vengeance speech by Sylvanas, where Lorthemar and Baine denounce Genn as a madman... instead of "Lost Honor"...

but A Good War at least cemented Stormheim as something that must be answered.
11/07/2018 03:21 PMPosted by Kreider
11/07/2018 03:15 PMPosted by Serevèn
...That poor darling. If only she had the stones to turn to someone else for help if she objected. Shame she lacked the moral courage Saurfang now has.

She did end up objecting to the things Garrosh was doing and she didn't leave the Horde and unwittingly become an Alliance pawn to do so. She worked with the other Horde leaders. If Saurfang had that kind of moral courage he would have left with the Horde leaders during the Stormwind Extraction and tried to rally them against her. Instead, he choose to stay, sulk, and then wait for Anduin to release him.

Yeah, but how dare she follow through with the attack on the ever selfish genn greymane rather than let tons of her people die in opposing garrosh and the alliance. It's not like they were going to stop invading just because she left the horde warmachine. They STARTED that invasion in the UC.
11/07/2018 03:21 PMPosted by Kreider
She did end up objecting to the things Garrosh was doing and she didn't leave the Horde and unwittingly become an Alliance pawn to do so.
Oh good so she didn't become to Genn exactly the monster Arthas was to her? Sweet! Good on her for fighting back and standing on principle. You know. Since the poor darling definitely objected to going to war and blighting people.
11/07/2018 03:29 PMPosted by Granfaloon
selfish genn greymane
I'll actually never get this one from Belf posters. You know Gilneas AND Silvermoon withdrew from the Alliance and walled up because humans voted against killing off the orcs, right? Its a b i t of a plot point.

Anyway that's all completely irrelevant to what I said. Key word in my first post was "as". As in, equal to. If you are in support of Sylvanas having her reasons to blight and butcher people that's fine. You just should be in support of Arthas doing the same. And if that means you are against someone seeking revenge against that butcher? You need to be against it in BOTH CASES.

Otherwise you look less like you're standing on principle and more just boring old hypocrisy.

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