Why Stormheim is enough reason for War

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11/07/2018 02:54 PMPosted by Granfaloon
11/07/2018 02:40 PMPosted by Serevèn
Stormheim was as justified as Sylvanas' quest for revenge against Arthas. Why didn't she respect his sovereignty??? Completely uncool of her to go after the monster who razed her kingdom, butchered her people, and personally took everything from her.

arthas was not being forced to do what he did. He was a willing participant. Sure he lost his soul, but even after he merged with the LK, HE took control. Not to mention was evil FAR before he became a death knight.

Sylvanas was being pressured by garrosh, who had control of the horde and forces in the UC to mindlessly charge the walls of gilneas. A nation that closed its doors on the fleeing citizens of lordaeron and sicked worgen on the undead (forsaken and scourge). So she used better tactics to ensure victory, and accidentally killed liam in the process.

Genn should have been mad at Garrosh. And Genn didn't just target sylvanas, he was attacking the forsaken fighting the demons while he was at it.


Sylvanas wasn't being forced or manipulated either. Chronicle confirms she wanted to invade Gilneas and Blight it long before Garrosh ever gave her the orders. She likely put the idea in his mind in the first place.

She's evil. Accept it.
Far and away from any politics or reasonable story debate, I think a LOT of posters underestimate the number of people who support Sylvanas purely out of spite.

There are many(such as myself) who don’t care to defend Sylvanas being so obviously malevolent it’s funny. But who are so pro-Horde that if a Human Paladin says they want her dead, then it’s a cause worth defending. You’ll never hear me say Burning Teldrassil was a good idea. Or that Greymane’s grudge against her isn’t justified. But I’m very anti Human Potential, and spiting Anduin is very cathartic as a Horde player.
This is really irrelevant now and is brought up only once in the book. Also I have a feeling, soon Blizzard will make this event a really evil moment for Sylvanas issuing more, "See! I told you!" within the forums.
Guy angry at woman for killing his son and invading his kingdom deserves to have his ally's city burned to the ground. Seems legit.
11/07/2018 04:50 PMPosted by Arlifrex
Guy angry at woman for killing his son and invading his kingdom deserves to have his ally's city burned to the ground. Seems legit.


This will probably get a lot of people angry at me, but I see this point so often, Gen's son took his own life, he alone chose to jump in front of that arrow.
11/07/2018 04:54 PMPosted by Arazlok
11/07/2018 04:50 PMPosted by Arlifrex
Guy angry at woman for killing his son and invading his kingdom deserves to have his ally's city burned to the ground. Seems legit.


This will probably get a lot of people angry at me, but I see this point so often, Gen's son took his own life, he alone chose to jump in front of that arrow.


The soldiers at Pearl Harbor took their own lives. They alone chose to live there and exist when the Japanese just wanted to kill them. So when they decided to fight back and stop the Japanese from killing their brothers, sisters, and family, and destroying their lands, they then chose to die by putting themselves in the path. The Japanese had no part in it.

Right?

(This was all Sarcasm in case you didn't get that. Your argument is weak.)
If Odyn, the guy who’s Aegis we needed, found out that we were trying to steal his most prized Val’kyr from him I don’t think he would have given us the Aegis.


He has us butcher his own Val'kyr to prove we're even worthy of having it. He was ready to hand it over to the Legion (who had defiled plenty of his followers on their own) if their champion won in combat. Odyn's entire philosophy is 'Might Makes Right', and we see that again and again in stormheim. People are tearing each other apart for his favor and he encourages them all to do so.

He might have set out to reclaim Eyir (And I do mean reclaim, given his track record of treating the Val'kyr as property), or tasked agents with doing so, but he was never going to withhold the Aegis because Sylvanas dominated them out from under his own dominion. He had his bull!@#$ challenges that he set as the requirements for gaining the Aegis, and we met those.

Odyn's a jerk, but he's a consistent Jerk.
I agree with the posters who conclude Odyn would have given the Aegis to the Champion of his trials, regardless of what Sylvanas did.

He would have given it to the Legion if their agents won, and they were trying to scour Azeroth.

He is all about his rules, and might makes right. He would probably enjoy hearing the tale. He has lost Valkyr before. He has cast them aside. He has helped others ascend.
I've seen this post somewhere before... I just don't know where.

/s
11/07/2018 04:50 PMPosted by Arlifrex
Guy angry at woman for killing his son and invading his kingdom deserves to have his ally's city burned to the ground. Seems legit.


It is certainly legit when said Guy uses Alliance military assets to kill that Woman, and she happens to be in charge of a massive military herself.

Anyone in that Guy's Alliance is fair game. Especially a city that house's that Guy's people.
11/07/2018 03:58 PMPosted by Orenos
11/07/2018 02:54 PMPosted by Granfaloon
...
arthas was not being forced to do what he did. He was a willing participant. Sure he lost his soul, but even after he merged with the LK, HE took control. Not to mention was evil FAR before he became a death knight.

Sylvanas was being pressured by garrosh, who had control of the horde and forces in the UC to mindlessly charge the walls of gilneas. A nation that closed its doors on the fleeing citizens of lordaeron and sicked worgen on the undead (forsaken and scourge). So she used better tactics to ensure victory, and accidentally killed liam in the process.

Genn should have been mad at Garrosh. And Genn didn't just target sylvanas, he was attacking the forsaken fighting the demons while he was at it.


Sylvanas wasn't being forced or manipulated either. Chronicle confirms she wanted to invade Gilneas and Blight it long before Garrosh ever gave her the orders. She likely put the idea in his mind in the first place.

She's evil. Accept it.

Genn and all of gilneas are evil. They put up a wall in peace time, then shut the gates when the scourge came. People died begging to be let in. Gilneans died begging to be let in. Then when the scourge overwhelmed the wall they unleashed worgen on them.

Genn had it coming. Accept it.
11/07/2018 02:16 PMPosted by Khazlei
I don’t know about the rest of you, but if I was an older Orc Farseer, I wouldn’t be trusting the Draenei under my guidance to be forgetting Shattrath right now, even in the face of the Legion.
That's on you then, because the Lightforged seem more hateful towards the Horde than the draenei ever have been and probably ever will, and they only just met them. Maybe Turalyon told them how kind and honorable the orcs were during the first and second wars.
Of course Stormheim is reason enough for war. If Blizzard had actually written the story that way, it would have made perfect sense.
11/07/2018 05:40 PMPosted by Granfaloon
Genn and all of gilneas are evil. They put up a wall in peace time, then shut the gates when the scourge came. People died begging to be let in. Gilneans died begging to be let in. Then when the scourge overwhelmed the wall they unleashed worgen on them.

Genn had it coming. Accept it.


No, Genn did not have it coming. Aside from how you simplified the story there to make it sound worse than it actually was; NONE of those wrongs give Sylvanas the right to invade and kill them. Nor does it make her a good guy, or not evil, for doing so. That's not how this works.
11/07/2018 06:14 PMPosted by Orenos
11/07/2018 05:40 PMPosted by Granfaloon
Genn and all of gilneas are evil. They put up a wall in peace time, then shut the gates when the scourge came. People died begging to be let in. Gilneans died begging to be let in. Then when the scourge overwhelmed the wall they unleashed worgen on them.

Genn had it coming. Accept it.


No, Genn did not have it coming. Aside from how you simplified the story there to make it sound worse than it actually was; NONE of those wrongs give Sylvanas the right to invade and kill them. Nor does it make her a good guy, or not evil, for doing so. That's not how this works.

Wow, it's almost like international politics and warfare are not as simple as saying X is bad because of Z. Genns not the good guy, sylvanas is not the good guy, garrosh is not the bad guy. They all have reasons for doing everything that they do, based on years of mistrust and bad politics that are not properly conveyed unless you look at every aspect of the lore. And even then it's still not a snapshot into the mind of the fictional characters.

Garrosh wanted to go to war because the alliance was choking the life out of the orcs, in his mind. Genn wanted to build a wall to escape the problems of the world. Sylvanas wanted to kill anyone who could be an enemy before they became an enemy.

If one of them is evil for trying to secure their peoples future at the cost of others, even if it was a means to an end to save themself, then they all are.

You want unapologetic and illogical evil? Teldrasil is your rally cry.
11/07/2018 06:26 PMPosted by Granfaloon
Genn wanted to build a wall to escape the problems of the world. Sylvanas wanted to kill anyone who could be an enemy before they became an enemy.
That you see moral equivalence in these says so, so much.

Genocide is not on the same level of needs for justification as a nation opting out of world affairs. At all. 1930s Germany is not a moral equivalent to Switzerland.

You are conflating the ability to relate with justification or even sympathy. Don't. People can have relatable motivations and still cross lines and do wrong or be evil.
11/07/2018 06:30 PMPosted by Serevèn
11/07/2018 06:26 PMPosted by Granfaloon
Genn wanted to build a wall to escape the problems of the world. Sylvanas wanted to kill anyone who could be an enemy before they became an enemy.
That you see moral equivalence in these says so, so much.

Genocide is not on the same level of needs for justification as a nation opting out of world affairs. At all. 1930s Germany is not a moral equivalent to Switzerland.

You are conflating the ability to relate with justification or even sympathy. Don't. People can have relatable motivations and still cross lines and do wrong or be evil.

Like denying aid to a nation being ravaged by undead? Justified if you're worried about subjecting your own nation, but still pretty much awful. How about arthas purging stratholm was it necessary? Or could those undead live normal undead lives if he broke the LK control?

If the living won't accept the forsaken's very right to exist should they not cross lines to protect themselves? It's not like the alliance would consider themselves badguys if they killed every last forsaken. Would anyone call it genocide?
11/07/2018 04:54 PMPosted by Arazlok
11/07/2018 04:50 PMPosted by Arlifrex
Guy angry at woman for killing his son and invading his kingdom deserves to have his ally's city burned to the ground. Seems legit.


This will probably get a lot of people angry at me, but I see this point so often, Gen's son took his own life, he alone chose to jump in front of that arrow.


Just let his dad die 4Head
11/07/2018 06:30 PMPosted by Serevèn
Genocide is not on the same level of needs for justification as a nation opting out of world affairs. At all. 1930s Germany is not a moral equivalent to Switzerland.


I do believe someone just Godwin'd her way to defeat. Which is a shame because I agree with her, isolationism is not morally equivalent to massacre and refusing to help another is not morally equivalent to killing him. But she lost the argument so it's true.
11/07/2018 04:50 PMPosted by Arlifrex
Guy angry at woman for killing his son and invading his kingdom deserves to have his ally's city burned to the ground. Seems legit.


A character can have emotional justifications for their actions and still be wrong to carry them out.

I don't condemn Genn for wanting revenge, I condemn him for deciding his revenge was worth more than the lives of Alliance and Horde soldiers he threw away and the massive political nightmare he created by trying to assassinate the leader of a sovereign nation during a coordinated effort to save the world.

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