Why Stormheim is enough reason for War

Story Forum
People can make an argument that the Forsaken where the only members of the Horde going to Stormheim making it convenient for Sylvanas ambitious but with Night Elves already established in Val'sharah and the allegiance of the majority Vrykul being questionable it wouldn't be too far for a race of the Horde to establish a foothold within the Broken Isles.

Another argument can be made that Genn Greymane used Alliance Forces to attack Sylvanas and her forces during a time of Legions frightening invasion as it was important for its defeat, but with the death of Varian Wrynn and the Horde's supposed abandonment during the Battle of Broken Shores causing tension within the Alliance.
Not going to criticize Liam since his actions were purely instinctual and came from a very deep love and admiration for his father, but sacrificing your life for one or both of your parents is an absolutely cruel thing to do to your parents.
11/07/2018 02:40 PMPosted by Serevèn
Stormheim was as justified as Sylvanas' quest for revenge against Arthas. Why didn't she respect his sovereignty??? Completely uncool of her to go after the monster who razed her kingdom, butchered her people, and personally took everything from her.


Your equivalence is interesting. Sylvanas was out to destroy Arthas and would never accept his existence. Stormheim contributed to the Horde having the same view of Alliance intentions.
11/07/2018 09:14 PMPosted by Kisin
11/07/2018 04:50 PMPosted by Arlifrex
Guy angry at woman for killing his son and invading his kingdom deserves to have his ally's city burned to the ground. Seems legit.


A character can have emotional justifications for their actions and still be wrong to carry them out.

I don't condemn Genn for wanting revenge, I condemn him for deciding his revenge was worth more than the lives of Alliance and Horde soldiers he threw away and the massive political nightmare he created by trying to assassinate the leader of a sovereign nation during a coordinated effort to save the world.
Hey cool I like you. You say the things I want to say but stupidly sidetrack myself instead.
It was likely part of her evil plan which probably will attempt to destroy the Horde so I don’t see how it could be argued to be a justified reason for the Horde to go to war.
11/07/2018 07:37 PMPosted by Roghter
11/07/2018 06:30 PMPosted by Serevèn
Genocide is not on the same level of needs for justification as a nation opting out of world affairs. At all. 1930s Germany is not a moral equivalent to Switzerland.


I do believe someone just Godwin'd her way to defeat. Which is a shame because I agree with her, isolationism is not morally equivalent to massacre and refusing to help another is not morally equivalent to killing him. But she lost the argument so it's true.


Godwin revoked his law when Nazzis started running for office again, so it's all good.
11/07/2018 04:54 PMPosted by Arazlok
This will probably get a lot of people angry at me, but I see this point so often, Gen's son took his own life, he alone chose to jump in front of that arrow.


Two things can be true at once. One is that Liam gave his life to protect his father from Sylvanas and is partially responsible for his death, and the other is that Sylvanas is partially responsible for Liam's death because her arrow killed Liam rather than Genn.

I don't think anyone should be angry to explain that, unless it's a deliberate attempt to whitewash and remove culpability from Sylvanas on this event because that's usually why I see people make that argument, they don't want to let Genn have any justifiable reason behind his vengeance so they jump through any hoops to explain why. Thankfully, the narrative doesn't take their side on this.
It can't be used to justify the war because Sylvanas as Warchief knows that Shaw was a dreadlord. If she's pressed Garona into serving the Horde, then she knows the entirety of the rogue class hall missions, and thus knows that the entirety of the conflict between the Horde and Alliance starting at the Broken Shore and all the way up to Stormheim was orchestrated by the Legion, just like Anduin knows the Horde didn't abandon the Alliance at the Shore and thus that can't be used as an excuse either.

Sylvanas does bring it up as a reason but the reason it's not pushed on as a sole reason is because she's not being entirely honest about how it came about. Fake Shaw had his demoney mitts in everything, both sides know it after the fact.

The end result is that the problems of both sides are reset. Anduin is a peace-lover and can look past the Broken Shore, Sylvanas is framed as a master tactician and can easily see the writing on the wall when it comes to Stormheim and how it came about. Before The Storm even shows Genn starting to relinquish some of his hate for the Forsaken, reducing the risk of him going off half-cocked again.

It doesn't help that Stormheim as a setback for the Forsaken was completely downplayed. The Forsaken don't seem to be any weaker than they ever were at all, which makes bringing up Stormheim as a reason somewhat weak because we haven't been shown that it was a blow to the undead at all.
11/07/2018 02:50 PMPosted by Akiyass
11/07/2018 02:42 PMPosted by Hahahahahaha
Anything bad happen to the Horde? They are a trash monster race, they deserved it.


I mean, when the goal is to enslave an entire race of Angelic beings who were helping us combat the Burning Legion, then doesn't that make the Horde, or at Least Sylvanas and the Forsaken, trash monster races who deserved what they got in Stormheim?


They weren’t helping us at the time, before this majority of titan keepers we meet we killed. Honestly enslaving her wouldn’t of done much wrong.... didn’t odion have her enslaved himself? How is what Sylvanas trying to do any different then odion? Also isn’t it a Nobel cause to save her people from an eternal hell?

Point is alliance attack on her was bad, spin it however you want. Yes Genn has a reason to hate her, but what he did during a legion invasion was bad. Had a orc been a warchief there would of been war on the spot. No not just an orc any other character or in real life any leader would of done it.
11/08/2018 11:51 AMPosted by Nekkar
They weren’t helping us at the time, before this majority of titan keepers we meet we killed. Honestly enslaving her wouldn’t of done much wrong.... didn’t odion have her enslaved himself? How is what Sylvanas trying to do any different then odion? Also isn’t it a Nobel cause to save her people from an eternal hell?


Factually incorrect on multiple levels, there's a reason going to Stormheim was important and Odyn's lot were helping us retrieve the Aegis of Aggramar as well. Plus Eyir proved valuable help in the Balance of Power quest-line and the Valajar help us in the Broken Shore.

11/08/2018 11:51 AMPosted by Nekkar
Point is alliance attack on her was bad, spin it however you want. Yes Genn has a reason to hate her, but what he did during a legion invasion was bad. Had a orc been a warchief there would of been war on the spot. No not just an orc any other character or in real life any leader would of done it.


It was bad for Horde, sure. It would have been bad for Alliance to allow her to go through with her scheming for vile power upgrades behind the Alliance's back. Letting her have that level of power would have been dangerous for the Alliance, and it's perhaps why Genn wasn't punished as severely as people think he should have been.
11/07/2018 02:37 PMPosted by Khazlei
And the rest of the Horde from that point(long before Teldrassil) were ostensibly loyal to the appointed Warchief. This isn’t about a faction that on its own amounts to 1 order hall, But every Horde member who’d ever done wrong against a current member of the Alliance losing any ability to trust their allies in their respective Orders. And cohesion inside these orders falling apart as a result, of not sparking an actual war in the process.

I can’t imagine the majority of the Horde being EAGER to hand the survival of the world over to the Legon by abandoning the Alliance champions in the middle of the invasion. However, any trust brought about by that threat? Gone. If any member of the Alliance could attack and kill a member of the Horde who they had a grudge with, and go unpunished by Anduin *Peacemonger* Wrynn? Why would any Horde member with a shred of loyalty and political savvy ness be able to trust their lives to Alliance members at ANY OTHER TIME if not during a war for the fate of the planet against the Burning Legion itself?!


I think you miss the point that there was no trust between factions. As far as the Alliance is concerned, the Horde killed Varian at this point in time
11/07/2018 02:48 PMPosted by Droité
11/07/2018 02:37 PMPosted by Khazlei
I can’t imagine the majority of the Horde being EAGER to hand the survival of the world over to the Legon by abandoning the Alliance champions in the middle of the invasion. However, any trust brought about by that threat? Gone. If any member of the Alliance could attack and kill a member of the Horde who they had a grudge with, and go unpunished by Anduin *Peacemonger* Wrynn? Why would any Horde member with a shred of loyalty and political savvy ness be able to trust their lives to Alliance members at ANY OTHER TIME if not during a war for the fate of the planet against the Burning Legion itself?!


Did you just suggest that if Sylvie had destroyed relations with the Titan Keepers (had she succeeded in enslaving Eyir) that the Horde would have entrusted the safety of the world to the Legion? Also, Sylvanas actively committed treason when she explicitly went against Garrosh's (her Warchief's) orders and used Blight against Gilneas. Notice how she wasn't "punished"?

Not to mention, even if Genn and Rogers did not know what she was doing; it doesn't change the fact that Sylvie broke the trust between the factions when her first act as Warchief was to actually endanger the battle against the Legion. She could have lost the races of Azeroth the cooperation of the Titan Keepers; and potentially even denied them the Aegis of Aggramar (something Odyn had!)
Gen was the one at fault in this situation he knew nothing of what she was doing only that she was there and he wanted revenge risking the entire world for his petty little quest by this logic it would been okay if Rommath lead the sunreavers into dal liberated those still imprisoned unjustly and manabombed the city. Did jaina do something super messed up? yeah. Is it worth literally risking the world over to set it right? no.
11/07/2018 03:56 PMPosted by Serevèn
11/07/2018 03:29 PMPosted by Granfaloon
selfish genn greymane
I'll actually never get this one from Belf posters. You know Gilneas AND Silvermoon withdrew from the Alliance and walled up because humans voted against killing off the orcs, right? Its a b i t of a plot point.

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As I recall, the sticking point was in being asked to chip in for the relocation camps. Quel'thelas was pretty much Elves doing what Elves do... retreat to isolation once the fighting is done. And Greymane simply refusing to be involved in fighting outside his Kingdom.
Genn went of with a force of seventh legion and gilnean forces to exact revenge on Sylvanas. Yep sure is the entire Alliance attacking.

He was on his own personal vendetta, feeling the horde left them to die and killed varian. This wasn't an Alliance sanctioned attack.

You can keep throwing this like you do camp tarahou but what ever you hope to gain is long gone.
Stormheim absolutely justified the war against the Alliance. I mean...that should go without saying and my only frustration is how most of the NPCs in game seemed to think it was not that big a deal that the Alliance launched a surprise offensive against the Horde during the Legion invasion, and explicitly tried to assassinate the Warchief.

If anything *close* to Stormheim happened in the real world between two rival powers, war would be immediate.

My problem with Sylvanas isn't her retaliation against the Alliance. It's the fact that the story has her retaliating by committing horrific war crimes and making me complicit.
11/09/2018 12:08 PMPosted by Revaniite
Genn went of with a force of seventh legion and gilnean forces to exact revenge on Sylvanas. Yep sure is the entire Alliance attacking.

He was on his own personal vendetta, feeling the horde left them to die and killed varian. This wasn't an Alliance sanctioned attack.

You can keep throwing this like you do camp tarahou but what ever you hope to gain is long gone.


How was this not an Alliance sanctioned attack? It was commanded by one of the Alliance leaders and one of their top generals. It used Alliance forces flying Alliance colours. And not only were the commanders unpunished, Genn remains Anduin's top advisor.

How could the Horde interpret Stormheim as anything but Alliance sanctioned? Did Genn even get a slap on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper?
11/09/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Carmageddon
Did Genn even get a slap on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper?
Why would he? He was a hero

Like you Hordies just need to get over it. Stormheim was revenge for Gilneas. It wasn't much but Sylvanas got what she deserved.
11/09/2018 02:21 PMPosted by Triskeriaki
11/09/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Carmageddon
Did Genn even get a slap on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper?
Why would he? He was a hero

Like you Hordies just need to get over it. Stormheim was revenge for Gilneas. It wasn't much but Sylvanas got what she deserved.


So we agree that it *was* Alliance sanctioned. Excellent.
11/09/2018 03:29 PMPosted by Carmageddon
11/09/2018 02:21 PMPosted by Triskeriaki
... Why would he? He was a hero

Like you Hordies just need to get over it. Stormheim was revenge for Gilneas. It wasn't much but Sylvanas got what she deserved.


So we agree that it *was* Alliance sanctioned. Excellent.

Well, if sylvanas dies and the alliance murder saurfang we might be able to pull the horde together and have a proper war against the alliance. Although I am sure it'll just be gallywix vs Baine....
11/09/2018 03:29 PMPosted by Carmageddon
So we agree that it *was* Alliance sanctioned. Excellent.
As if it would matter if it was ~*~sanctioned~*~ or not; the Legion and Sylvanas are both enemies of Azeroth

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