Alliance buffs coming in 8.1

War Mode and World PvP
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/hnewman/2018/11/07/blizzard-working-to-balance-warcrafts-alliance-and-horde-players-in-war-mode-raiding/#3d6f24cb3c18

But as we go ahead to [patch] 8.1, Tides of Vengeance, we're actually looking at offering some kind of increased rewards for the less-represented faction in War Mode, so the risk and reward are better calibrated.
Hazzikostas said said Blizzard suspects many Alliance players had "rough experiences early on and opted out" of War Mode, and the increased rewards may bring people back in. While the new systems are intended to give additional rewards of experience while leveling and world-quest currency at max level to anyone participating in War Mode in a faction that's under-represented, right now that's "basically Alliance," he said.
The point of the War Mode bonuses has always been to offset the inherent inefficiency of, sometimes you go to World Quest, but you can't because of Horde players there, or you get killed," he said. "Stay away from the assassins on the map, but we want to keep that equal. And so if you are outnumbered, you should get a bigger bonus for being a part of that. That's something we want to do.
11/08/2018 08:56 AMPosted by Triskeriaki
https://www.forbes.com/sites/hnewman/2018/11/07/blizzard-working-to-balance-warcrafts-alliance-and-horde-players-in-war-mode-raiding/#3d6f24cb3c18

But as we go ahead to [patch] 8.1, Tides of Vengeance, we're actually looking at offering some kind of increased rewards for the less-represented faction in War Mode, so the risk and reward are better calibrated.
Hazzikostas said said Blizzard suspects many Alliance players had "rough experiences early on and opted out" of War Mode, and the increased rewards may bring people back in. While the new systems are intended to give additional rewards of experience while leveling and world-quest currency at max level to anyone participating in War Mode in a faction that's under-represented, right now that's "basically Alliance," he said.
The point of the War Mode bonuses has always been to offset the inherent inefficiency of, sometimes you go to World Quest, but you can't because of Horde players there, or you get killed," he said. "Stay away from the assassins on the map, but we want to keep that equal. And so if you are outnumbered, you should get a bigger bonus for being a part of that. That's something we want to do.


Needed, and from what I have read, it seems to be on a per shard basis. Which makes it fair, if it isn't, well then I along with others will be uninstalling. I'm not playing a keep faction changing for absurd amounts of money game.

The entire faction is not always outnunbered, they are the more popular faction on alot of Shards. So this has to be a per shard basis.

Especially scary is his "that's basically alliance" um no it isn't, EU Ally's overpopulate horde, and they do on RP as well. Only US normals is ally the underdogs, and not on every shard.

GW2 has had this system for years and it works to balance shards well.

If this is a straight ally buff, that they still receive while abusing sharding with huge raid groups. I am out.

A per shard system, will benefit Ally's most of the time if they are outnunbered as often as they say and that's fine. But the second they bring in 2 raid groups to 20 horde in zone, they need to lose that buff.

There will of course be outnunbered hunters, that search for those shards at first, but that will change over time. See a in GW, people stopped trying to outnunbered jump, because once word gets out a shard is outnumbered, by the time you get there and so does the other 80 people looking for it, you lost it.
If it gets more alliance to flag up for warmode, then I'm all for it.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/hnewman/2018/11/07/blizzard-working-to-balance-warcrafts-alliance-and-horde-players-in-war-mode-raiding/#61296a713c18
A variety of difficult-to-control factors can contribute to imbalance in populations of Horde versus Alliance in the same server areas in War Mode.

For example, players who join large raid groups for world quests all abruptly appear on the same shard, causing an imbalance that the game’s internal systems try to balance by bringing in an equivalent number of opposite-faction players. If the raid group then disbands after the quest is done, causing those players to pop back into their own realms, the compensating characters can leave a sudden glut of opposing faction players in the area.


Ya see you left that part out lol. That says exactly what I already thought from other reading about this. This is a shard based buff.

I am all for giving a bonus to the outnunbered people on a shard, and getting more people to do WM.

I'm not all for, giving Cryptid increased rewards while they run around in 3 raid groups killing horde questers.
11/08/2018 09:07 AMPosted by Dæmônic
The entire faction is not always outnunbered, they are the more popular faction on alot of Shards. So this has to be a per shard basis.

Especially scary is his "that's basically alliance" um no it isn't, EU Ally's overpopulate horde, and they do on RP as well. Only US normals is ally the underdogs, and not on every shard.

Where do people get this stuff? EU war mode is depopulated of Alliance just like NA war mode is, as is easily verifiable by looking at EU forums. Even on US RP shards, Horde outnumber Alliance, it's just not by very much so people don't notice.

There will of course be outnunbered hunters

This is exactly why a shard based bonus would be so stupid. For example, if it's based on the balance at completion of a quest, there will be people who do most of a world quest on an "easy" shard and switch to a "hard" shard to complete it. Also, shard populations change from moment to moment; even without switching shards, you could wait until a moment when the bonuse is high to complete the quest. For this to work to balance numbers, it needs to be a predictable bonus, which means it has to be calculated over the entire population that shares shards - all of a region, with at most a split between Normal and RP servers since they don't share shards, if Blizzard isn't afraid of RP people seeking out Normal shard parties to complete their quests.

If you're worried about shard to shard imbalance, Blizzard can just change the sharding to a more simple model that just assigns shard populations randomly, instead of trying to micromanage shard populations in a way that Ion admits hasn't worked.
11/08/2018 09:07 AMPosted by Dæmônic
Needed, and from what I have read, it seems to be on a per shard basis. Which makes it fair, if it isn't, well then I along with others will be uninstalling. I'm not playing a keep faction changing for absurd amounts of money game.


And you shouldn't that would be insane. The purpose of the variable benefits are obviously aimed at getting the existing population to enable War Mode. Faction swapping to the point that you negate the bonus would be like a dog chasing it's own tail. This is a clear example of players really ruining any attempt to help the game by going to extreme measure to chase marginal rewards. And then complain when the system isn't designed for them to do that.

11/08/2018 09:07 AMPosted by Dæmônic
The entire faction is not always outnunbered, they are the more popular faction on alot of Shards. So this has to be a per shard basis.


I understand that concern, but how do you encourage people to join War Mode for additional rewards, if they end up in a shard that doesn't have additional rewards? They'll either shard hop, or turn War Mode off again. You can't necessarily predict what shard you'll end up in, and the goal is to address the overall experience. If you have a shard that for someone has a consistent Alliance advantage despite the overall population being Horde, than that's an issue of the sharding tech itself, not the reward structure.

11/08/2018 09:07 AMPosted by Dæmônic
Especially scary is his "that's basically alliance" um no it isn't, EU Ally's overpopulate horde, and they do on RP as well. Only US normals is ally the underdogs, and not on every shard.


Overall population does not represent War Mode participation, as is evident by the heavily skewed HvA ratio in War Mode which does not align with the marginal HvA ratio of the populations in general.

11/08/2018 09:07 AMPosted by Dæmônic
If this is a straight ally buff, that they still receive while abusing sharding with huge raid groups. I am out.


What part of the reward buff are we going to get if we're in a raid group? A few group WQs? This doesn't add to any benefit to forming a raid group, those raid aren't formed with rewards in mind.

11/08/2018 09:07 AMPosted by Dæmônic
There will of course be outnunbered hunters, that search for those shards at first, but that will change over time. See a in GW, people stopped trying to outnunbered jump, because once word gets out a shard is outnumbered, by the time you get there and so does the other 80 people looking for it, you lost it.


It sounds like this would require people being able to see which shard has a buff, and target it. I'm not sure how feasible this is. Maybe people will advertise it in group finder? I don't know. I'm not sure the sharding system is designed for this yet.

11/08/2018 09:29 AMPosted by Dæmônic
Ya see you left that part out lol. That says exactly what I already thought from other reading about this. This is a shard based buff.


That's because that part is a separate part of the discussion. Ion started bringing up the challenges of balancing a shard, he did not insinuate that the variable rewards based on population would be shard specific.
11/08/2018 09:07 AMPosted by Dæmônic
Especially scary is his "that's basically alliance" um no it isn't, EU Ally's overpopulate horde, and they do on RP as well. Only US normals is ally the underdogs, and not on every shard.
I'd love to see your source because it's your word against Ion's right now
11/08/2018 06:41 PMPosted by Triskeriaki
11/08/2018 09:07 AMPosted by Dæmônic
Especially scary is his "that's basically alliance" um no it isn't, EU Ally's overpopulate horde, and they do on RP as well. Only US normals is ally the underdogs, and not on every shard.
I'd love to see your source because it's your word against Ion's right now


Quote to where ion said that? The amount of 120s, is what I am basing from.

Anyway not trying to get lost in multiquotes here.

Here is the issue that was brought up, twice.

"What advantage does being in a raid have" extremely huge advantage, when there will be Raid based PvP WQs added in 8.1, that reward conquest.

If your faction is outnunbered at all times, like you say, then you will receive the buff kost the time. But the reality is that isn't true, and I as horde am outnunbered alot, so why should you get a faction wide buff?

I agree it's due to the sharding tech, so do they, they stated that. They also said there is nothing they can do about it. Then stated, they will be implementing this underdog system to help deal with it.

I realize they never said it will be shard based, they also never said it will be faction based. They to me, implied a shard based system.

We will just have to wait and see, when they clarify more.

Like I said, personally am excited for this. I hope they give a shard based reward and it works. If they get a faction based one, that favors alliance while they dominate shards all the time with huge raid groups. Well that will be the nail in the wow coffin for me and my friends. We are a small number, about 50, but I'm sure we are not the only ones that feel that way.

I have been hankering for some WvW in GW for awhile anyway.
11/08/2018 09:47 PMPosted by Dæmônic
Quote to where ion said that? The amount of 120s, is what I am basing from.


Hazzikostas said said Blizzard suspects many Alliance players had "rough experiences early on and opted out" of War Mode, and the increased rewards may bring people back in. While the new systems are intended to give additional rewards of experience while leveling and world-quest currency at max level to anyone participating in War Mode in a faction that's under-represented, right now that's "basically Alliance," he said.


From the same Forbe's article you've been discussing.

11/08/2018 09:47 PMPosted by Dæmônic
"What advantage does being in a raid have" extremely huge advantage, when there will be Raid based PvP WQs added in 8.1, that reward conquest.


What PvP WQs that reward conquest? I know they discussed the towers being a WPvP objective in War Mode, but the only reward I know for those towers is a zone-wide buff for your faction. We don't even know what the buff is yet. So at this point we'd be arguing things based on guesses and speculation.

11/08/2018 09:47 PMPosted by Dæmônic
I agree it's due to the sharding tech, so do they, they stated that. They also said there is nothing they can do about it. Then stated, they will be implementing this underdog system to help deal with it.


How I read this article, and various interviews, is that they are addressing two different things: Overall population imbalance, and issues where Sharding is not adequately alleviating the problems of that population imbalance. Even if you adjust sharding, you'll end up with either some imbalanced shards, or shards that only have members of one faction. You have to do something with the excess players of a certain faction, and thus the game will still be broken for a good number of people.

In the article Ion starts by discussing the overall population imbalance. He then discusses why balancing shards is difficult due to things that are difficult to control. He never mentions doing anything to control the sharding elements, but instead seems to be focused on creating better overall faction balance so that there are fewer instances of imbalanced shards by cause and effect.

11/08/2018 09:47 PMPosted by Dæmônic
If they get a faction based one, that favors alliance while they dominate shards all the time with huge raid groups. Well that will be the nail in the wow coffin for me and my friends. We are a small number, about 50, but I'm sure we are not the only ones that feel that way.


I understand your experience is not the same as many, and I do hope that whatever weird sharding rules that are affecting your realm(s) get worked out. However I think that should be addressed separately, and not be the focus of the faction buff (for the reasons I discussed before). If the factions come closer in balance, and some basic sharding bugs are fixed, then I think we'll see significant improvement across the board.
So needless to say, you read that article wrong.

“I think global faction balance is in a pretty fine place,” Hazzikostas said. “There are two problems that we’re looking for solutions to. War Mode and participation in War Mode is one thing where I think we’ve actually made some technical improvements to improve shard balancing in practice in [the Battle for Azeroth expansion].


He also says all from Forbes.

"A variety of difficult-to-control factors can contribute to imbalance in populations of Horde versus Alliance in the same server areas in War Mode.

For example, players who join large raid groups for world quests all abruptly appear on the same shard, causing an imbalance that the game’s internal systems try to balance by bringing in an equivalent number of opposite-faction players. If the raid group then disbands after the quest is done, causing those players to pop back into their own realms, the compensating characters can leave a sudden glut of opposing faction players in the area."


They can't fix sharding because Ally's keep breaking it.

Just like how they favor horde when Ally's DDOS servers with 120+ raids, and get ported out.

You as a solo alliance player, doing your dailys, see zergs of horde that just happened to be in the shard, when the shard is over popped.

As horde, we either see, the opposite of you, a few solo Ally's running around trying to do their WQs. Or we see all too frequently, the 20-40 death squads that run around constantly.

That's the porblem you are not getting. You complain that you keep running into Mobs of Horde WQs, half of which won't fight you. While we have to deal with raids of people thats only goal is to camp us. Now you want a faction wide permanent buff to death squad us? Gtfoh.

Non of the horde is in groups, if they are it's for a WQ right there and it will break soon. The Ally's have what 4? Capped WPvP community's, horde has Zero. It takes 30-45 mins to get 20 people on horde to group up to fight those ally death squads that form in 5 mins.

Ally's take over shards on purpose, you might not be a part of that, and that's fine. That doesn't make it not reality that it is happening.

The PvP WQs are in the 8.1 what's coming from the blizzcon interviews. It's not towers, it's some other invasion PvP event thing that will be giving Conquest.

BTW, it has zero to do with Ally's having a bad experience and everything to do with

Hazzikostas said the game has seen some imbalance in the types of activities players pursue since the beginning. Alliance is “potentially a little bit” more likely to include more casual players, he said.


That's his nice way of saying, Ally's are carebears, always have been always will be.

I know, a few people who play ally only. My uncle, his wife and their guild. Or should I say guilds, they couldn't fit everyone in 1, they have 2 capped and 1 with like 800. Not 1 of them people raid, they don't do dungeons they don't PvP, they just quest, and RP level Alts ect.

Not that their is anything wrong with that, at all. Just the reality is, the majaority of the alliance has and always will be the people that come and say "I want to be the good guys". And those are the people that don't want to attack players,

When the head Dev is telling you that is reality, it's safe to say, it's reality.
11/09/2018 10:43 AMPosted by Dæmônic
They can't fix sharding because Ally's keep breaking it.


No, I am very confident you are reading the article wrong. Or more accurately, inserting your own experience into what he is saying. Alliance aren't the only faction that form raids to do WQs. There are literal Raid-level WQs, and all group WQ can be done with a raid. Most people who form a raid for an elite mob doesn't bother to stop letting people in at 5.

And I know all about Alliance raids roaming from shard to shard, but that again is not exclusive to the Alliance. I've encountered my own Horde raids, I'm fine with them, but they also contribute to this.

11/09/2018 10:43 AMPosted by Dæmônic
That's the porblem you are not getting. You complain that you keep running into Mobs of Horde WQs, half of which won't fight you. While we have to deal with raids of people thats only goal is to camp us. Now you want a faction wide permanent buff to death squad us? Gtfoh.


I don't think you've seen me complain about that. We're both regulars here, can you name a time I'm really complaining about that?

And again, what does that buff have to do with raids? The raids don't get hardly any benefit from the buff, and they aren't typically formed to do that. Not unless they are actually just a temp raid one to do a particular WQ, and not a roaming gank squad. Gank Squads will exist either way, and they aren't the ones who are going to benefit from this in particular.

And what does it have to do with the typical experience of either faction? I rarely see raids of that size in my day-to-day war moding. And while I know raids like Cryptid's exist, they can't possibly jump around enough shards to effect people on a regular basis to any substnatial detriment. They aren't the WoW War Mode Santa Claus, visiting every Shard in a region for any length of time taking over an entire zone and ganking every individual Horde simultaneously. The Alliance raids is an overblown issue that doesn't compare to the consistent problems people have with regular imabalance.

11/09/2018 10:43 AMPosted by Dæmônic
Non of the horde is in groups, if they are it's for a WQ right there and it will break soon. The Ally's have what 4? Capped WPvP community's, horde has Zero. It takes 30-45 mins to get 20 people on horde to group up to fight those ally death squads that form in 5 mins.


Just because you haven't found them, doesn't mean they exist. I haven't look since I don't play Horde, but I encountered them constantly in the Dark Shore pre-patch War Mode. Those were multi-server raids, constantly showing up. I doubt they are materializing without a large community.

11/09/2018 10:43 AMPosted by Dæmônic
The PvP WQs are in the 8.1 what's coming from the blizzcon interviews.


Only thing I saw regarding "PvP WQs" are the towers, which have undefined rewards, and incursions, which also have undefined rewards and are not PvP WQs. They are WQs which Feasel said would probably be big catalysts for WPvP on War Mode. Just like neutral Azerite WQs are now. I have not actually heard the term "PvP WQ" come from a dev.
11/09/2018 10:43 AMPosted by Dæmônic
He also says all from Forbes.

"A variety of difficult-to-control factors can contribute to imbalance in populations of Horde versus Alliance in the same server areas in War Mode.

For example, players who join large raid groups for world quests all abruptly appear on the same shard, causing an imbalance that the game’s internal systems try to balance by bringing in an equivalent number of opposite-faction players. If the raid group then disbands after the quest is done, causing those players to pop back into their own realms, the compensating characters can leave a sudden glut of opposing faction players in the area."

They can't fix sharding because Ally's keep breaking it.

Actually, what he's saying there is the exact opposite. The servers could handle the Alliance raids just fine; the problem that's causing the performance issues is that Blizzard's own software then adds just as many Horde. The resultant load on the server is twice the size of the Alliance raids, that that's what causes the performance issues.

What Blizzard should do is forget about micromanaging individual shard population, and instead focus on managing overall war mode population. And it sounds like they're starting to understand that.

Incidentally, what Ion says there contradicts your claimed experience. If what he says is true, Horde is never outnumbered by Alliance raids, because the servers bring in extra Horde to compensate.

Granted the Horde might not be clueful enough about PVP to group up. That's a player problem, though, not a game problem. Horde that can't handle grouping up to fight maybe should have war mode off.
11/09/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Balanor
Only thing I saw regarding "PvP WQs" are the towers, which have undefined rewards, and incursions, which also have undefined rewards and are not PvP WQs.


From the recent Content Creators Interview with Jeremy Feasel and Paul Watkins:

- More rewards like Conquest will be added to War Mode as extra incentives.

- Free for All PvP Quests are scheduled to make a return in Nazjatar.
11/09/2018 12:08 PMPosted by Yarrow
Incidentally, what Ion says there contradicts your claimed experience. If what he says is true, Horde is never outnumbered by Alliance raids, because the servers bring in extra Horde to compensate.


I wouldn't say that is true. They don't pull someone from one shard to another unless they are entering that zone to begin with. I.E. they have to wait for some Horde on a matching realm (normal/RP) to enter that zone, and then they can put them on that shard to assist with Balancing. It's not a sudden "Oh, better grab 20 Horde from other shards who have already been in this zone for 20 minutes, no matter what they are currently doing." So when a Alliance raid pops in it would still take time for that zone to even out.

11/09/2018 12:30 PMPosted by Alphon
From the recent Content Creators Interview with Jeremy Feasel and Paul Watkins:


I forgot about the mention of free-for-all PvP quests, but I don't recall those ever being effected by raids either. Wasn't it 5 man group at most that you could make to do them?

As for conquest in War Mode, we don't know what form that is taking, or if roaming Shard raids will gain any benefit from it. So the base argument me and Daemonic are having is still "What would these roaming Alliance raids gain from a faction-wide increase to the existing buff?"

I don't think we have any information saying that a raid like Cryptid's would be getting any additional rewards from an increase in the existing War Mode buff.
11/08/2018 08:56 AMPosted by Triskeriaki
Blizzard suspects many Alliance players had "rough experiences early on and opted out" of War Mode, and the increased rewards may bring people back in.


11/08/2018 08:56 AMPosted by Triskeriaki
War Mode in a faction that's under-represented, right now that's "basically Alliance,"


First, there's no reward that'll get a specific player base to 'flag up'. I'm not saying all players that don't won't, but if the appeal to PvP/WPvP isn't there, they just won't do it.

I said this in another post, for me, PvE is just redundant and boring(aside doing story). My raiding hay day was in Vanilla - WotLK and after that raiding no longer appeals to me. You can dangle whatever pretty reward there is in there, I'll just wait til the next expansion to farm w/e mount/title from it.

I feel this is the same for a particular representation (not all) player base on the Alliance. It just outright is not appealing. This 'reward' is nothing more than a bandaid on a hemorrhaging wound. Blizz has led this imbalance against the Alliance since BC and then snubbed the Alliance in general.

Alliance under-represented is not only by the player base. It's under-represented by Blizzard.

11/08/2018 08:56 AMPosted by Triskeriaki
And so if you are outnumbered, you should get a bigger bonus for being a part of that.


However, there's no amount of reward that will offset a number differential. Say there's 20 horde and 10 Alliance fighting. There's no way the 10 could overpower the 20. How could any bonus even be achievable or desired when the task still remains a daunting uphill battle?

I like what War Mode represents. But Blizz doesn't represent or think about the entirety of the player base.
11/09/2018 10:43 AMPosted by Dæmônic
They can't fix sharding because Ally's keep breaking it.
Just like how they favor horde when Ally's DDOS servers with 120+ raids, and get ported out.
you are actually so delusional it's hilarious.
07/24/2018 05:35 PMPosted by Phalanx
It is likely because there is a significantly greater number of Horde active in War Mode at the moment.
it just can't possibly be the horde (who has more numbers, it MUST be those alliance guys always cheating lol
11/09/2018 10:43 AMPosted by Dæmônic
That's the porblem you are not getting.
The problem is you are so deep in Horde bias that you don't see the issue because you hate Alliance so much you think your anecdotal experience is evidence
11/09/2018 10:43 AMPosted by Dæmônic
Not 1 of them people raid, they don't do dungeons they don't PvP, they just quest, and RP level Alts ect.
casual means they don't spend as much time in the game. i guess you fall in this category since you don't play the game at a level that requires effort anyways
11/08/2018 09:07 AMPosted by Dæmônic
The entire faction is not always outnunbered, they are the more popular faction on alot of Shards. So this has to be a per shard basis.


i mean, you're just wrong lol.
11/09/2018 12:08 PMPosted by Yarrow
Incidentally, what Ion says there contradicts your claimed experience. If what he says is true, Horde is never outnumbered by Alliance raids, because the servers bring in extra Horde to compensate.

I wouldn't say that is true. They don't pull someone from one shard to another unless they are entering that zone to begin with. I.E. they have to wait for some Horde on a matching realm (normal/RP) to enter that zone, and then they can put them on that shard to assist with Balancing. It's not a sudden "Oh, better grab 20 Horde from other shards who have already been in this zone for 20 minutes, no matter what they are currently doing." So when a Alliance raid pops in it would still take time for that zone to even out.

They're drawing from millions of subscribers and probably tens to hundreds of thousands in each currently active zone at any one time. How many milliseconds can it take to grab 40 characters crossing into that zone to stick them in the one relevant shard? I bet it's faster than the raid moving into the shard in the first place.
11/09/2018 07:30 PMPosted by Æon
11/08/2018 09:07 AMPosted by Dæmônic
The entire faction is not always outnunbered, they are the more popular faction on alot of Shards. So this has to be a per shard basis.


i mean, you're just wrong lol.


I think there's a confusion with what he's trying to interpret. If there's any uptick in Alliance War Mode it's because the community behind it drives it, not Blizzard.

If you're for or against those communities is an entirely different conversation, but they are doing exactly what Alliance needs in Blizzards years of absence in representing the Alliance. Blizzard has an obvious stance of favoring the Horde ('You're Welcome, Alliance/Metzen: Where's my Horde at?).

A reward enhancement/boost is more of an after thought at this point. What truly needs to be worked out is server stability and ways to effectively manage WPvP Mass Scale combat.

Blizzard does not represent the Alliance.
11/10/2018 11:29 AMPosted by Zenretsu
A reward enhancement/boost is more of an after thought at this point. What truly needs to be worked out is server stability and ways to effectively manage WPvP Mass Scale combat.

The reward enhancement is a good strategy for balancing PVE, where the lack of the war mode bonus keeps back Alliance side PVE raiders.

Agreed that PVP balance - balance among the actual PVP folks in war mode - will have to be handled by the players. The Alliance raids are a big part of that, as long as Blizzard doesn't actively interfere with them.

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