Alliance buffs coming in 8.1

War Mode and World PvP
11/11/2018 03:49 PMPosted by Wintel
11/08/2018 08:56 AMPosted by Triskeriaki
Blizzard suspects many Alliance players had "rough experiences early on and opted out" of War Mode, and the increased rewards may bring people back in.
Is Ion for real? He thinks that increased rewards will bring alliance back into warmode, when the vast majority of alliance have forgotten that warmode even exists?

This kind of measure is too little too late. A few alliance may turn on warmode, find themselves getting facing repeated 10v1 situations and then turn it off again.


Some time ago we made a hotfix to War Mode which enforces all War Mode shards that have both Alliance and Horde in them to have a stricter, more even ratio. We’ve been monitoring the results and so far we’ve noticed a significant improvement in “fair and balanced” shards. So much so that it’s safe to say that if you are Alliance, and you see Horde in the outdoor world in War Mode, you are a relatively even horde to alliance ratio shard. There are some rare exceptions, such as when a raid of 40 players enter a zone. It may take a bit for the “shard manager” to compensate and balance the shard.

We do have some plans in store in Tides of Vengeance (Patch 8.1) to entice the underrepresented faction with greater rewards to increase participation and create more active Horde/Allianced mixed War Mode shards. The intent of those rewards is not to give the underrepresented faction some “compensation” for being outnumbered in a War Mode shard (since that really can’t happen anymore).

We're also looking forward to what you all think about the Incursions in War Mode for 8.1, since it brings Horde and Alliance to the same location which should create some pretty fun skirmishes.
Whatever they are doing, it's not going to be enough. Look at the mythic leaderboard 100:12. How do you balance that when years of unbalanced racials pretty much caused this.
11/14/2018 04:37 PMPosted by Ythisens

We're also looking forward to what you all think about the Incursions in War Mode for 8.1, since it brings Horde and Alliance to the same location which should create some pretty fun skirmishes.


This basically.
Doggo here supplying you guys with some fresh insight as to how this works. I've drawn you a nice representation of how the new balance changes will look.

Also, is my job offer still available at Blizzard? My current job is becoming a real downer.

https://i.imgur.com/jodG3gJ.png

Comment which guy is your favorite and I may pick a winner and name him.
The intent of those rewards is not to give the underrepresented faction some “compensation” for being outnumbered in a War Mode shard (since that really can’t happen anymore).


Can you explain how that can't happen any more? Simple math dictates that it can and does happen often.

If one faction has 100 total people flagged for warmode and the other faction has 2 total people flagged for warmode, how will making shards that prioritize equal representation on both sides work?
The intent of those rewards is not to give the underrepresented faction some “compensation” for being outnumbered in a War Mode shard (since that really can’t happen anymore).
Can you explain how that can't happen any more? Simple math dictates that it can and does happen often.

If one faction has 100 people flagged for warmode and the other faction has 2 people flagged for warmode, how will making shards that prioritize equal representation on both sides work?
98 people will get a shard with 0 enemy players, and one shard will have 2 players from each faction.

That's what his post suggests, specifically "it’s safe to say that if you are Alliance, and you see Horde in the outdoor world in War Mode, you are a relatively even horde to alliance ratio shard". This implies that if you're Horde and you don't see any Alliance, it is because your shard is Horde only.

It sounds like the new system is 'equal representation or no representation'.
11/14/2018 04:37 PMPosted by Ythisens
11/11/2018 03:49 PMPosted by Wintel
...Is Ion for real? He thinks that increased rewards will bring alliance back into warmode, when the vast majority of alliance have forgotten that warmode even exists?

This kind of measure is too little too late. A few alliance may turn on warmode, find themselves getting facing repeated 10v1 situations and then turn it off again.


Some time ago we made a hotfix to War Mode which enforces all War Mode shards that have both Alliance and Horde in them to have a stricter, more even ratio. We’ve been monitoring the results and so far we’ve noticed a significant improvement in “fair and balanced” shards. So much so that it’s safe to say that if you are Alliance, and you see Horde in the outdoor world in War Mode, you are a relatively even horde to alliance ratio shard. There are some rare exceptions, such as when a raid of 40 players enter a zone. It may take a bit for the “shard manager” to compensate and balance the shard.

We do have some plans in store in Tides of Vengeance (Patch 8.1) to entice the underrepresented faction with greater rewards to increase participation and create more active Horde/Allianced mixed War Mode shards. The intent of those rewards is not to give the underrepresented faction some “compensation” for being outnumbered in a War Mode shard (since that really can’t happen anymore).

We're also looking forward to what you all think about the Incursions in War Mode for 8.1, since it brings Horde and Alliance to the same location which should create some pretty fun skirmishes.


Not trying to side track the post but its somewhat related to this.

For me, personally, i don't think the issue is wholly in the numbers, but that the success that the Communities have in getting players to WPvP and the major issue relating to it.

That issue is massive strain on the servers depending on the size of the groups/raids involved.

Back in BC you could do things like Halaa no problem 40v40 with massive amounts of npcs spawning. Clearly any thing upward of 80v80 it causes chaos and beyond that total server death.

Whats planned to fix or regulate this instability? I feel y'all are inviting more people to the pool party but not compensating for the size of the pool.

PS: Thanks for responding to the posts!
11/14/2018 04:37 PMPosted by Ythisens
Some time ago we made a hotfix to War Mode which enforces all War Mode shards that have both Alliance and Horde in them to have a stricter, more even ratio. We’ve been monitoring the results and so far we’ve noticed a significant improvement in “fair and balanced” shards. So much so that it’s safe to say that if you are Alliance, and you see Horde in the outdoor world in War Mode, you are a relatively even horde to alliance ratio shard. There are some rare exceptions, such as when a raid of 40 players enter a zone. It may take a bit for the “shard manager” to compensate and balance the shard.

Interesting. What I've noticed is that world PVP and questing in war mode has become far too easy for my tastes. I liked having to put together a group to do world quests. I liked my PVP server because I liked being on the minority faction, where we constantly had to be on the lookout for danger. What we have now is a less stimulating and less interesting play experience.

I do think that trying to improve balance in war mode participation globally is a good thing. I don't think that forcing balance on a shard by shard basis is a good thing. And my observations suggest that it hasn't caused a reduction in the imbalance in participation rates, either, at least not on Emerald Dream where I have made recent observations.

Also, if you're enforcing balance on some shards, then on other shards you have only one faction, currently Horde. This does still create an imbalance because (a) Horde have a good chance of getting the war mode bonus risk free while Alliance do not, and (b) Horde who end up in an all Horde shard are going to have great difficulty fulfilling the Call to Arms quest, since there are literally no Alliance there for them to fight.

In addition, in the cases of raids, the balancing algorithm can cause more lag than necessary, because raids are typically in cities, while the people brought in to balance the shard are typically flying in to world quest areas. Few of the questers help defend the city, so the defending side brings others into cities to defend, which causes the algorithm to bring in more questers on the attackers' side. The net result is that a 40 person raid can result in 160 more people on the shard, substantially increasing the risk of lag. This can be partially alleviated by putting a delay in the balancing algorithm - perhaps you've already done this, since the incidence of inexplicable server side lag while questing has been reduced from its peak - but it would be better if you didn't need an artificial balancing algorithm at all.

I understand the intent of the extra rewards for the minority faction is not compensation, and maybe it's more about balancing overall faction rewards with concomitant balance benefits to overall faction population and, especially, end game progression population. However, the minority faction necessarily takes on more risk in war mode, whether it's by being outnumbered on their shards or whether it's by always being on balanced PVP shards where the majority faction is often on risk free shards, and that's something that the sharding software can't fix. You might as well take credit for the fact that the extra rewards will tend to go to the faction that faces, on average, more risk in war mode.

I do think you might want to do the balancing partly through balancing the faction wide risks, as well as the faction wide rewards. I'd suggest that you permit the minority faction to take the Call to Arms quest more than once in a week until the number of quest completions on each side is proportional to the war mode population on the other side. This will (a) encourage more war mode participation on the minority faction, (b) by increasing the minority faction aggregate war mode player time, make the Call to Arms quest more possible to complete on the majority faction side, and (c) increase the risks to the majority side to be closer to the risks faced by the minority side. This wouldn't necessarily replace the rewards changes you've announced, but the balancing efforts could be divided between the two.

I'm really glad that you guys are paying some attention to war mode and world PVP, and that you're making an effort to balance faction participation in war mode. I do hope that if these efforts are at least partially successful, you'll see fit to remove the artificial shard balancing algorithms and instead allow random variations from overall faction balance. It feels more like real world PVP when we have a chance of being outnumbered and having to work extra hard to survive!
A lot of good reading and points for both side. :)
11/14/2018 04:37 PMPosted by Ythisens
We're also looking forward to what you all think about the Incursions in War Mode for 8.1, since it brings Horde and Alliance to the same location which should create some pretty fun skirmishes.

World quests already do this effectively when completed in war mode. I'd expect these "incursions" to do the same if they're also available with either war mode on or war mode off.

If they will only be available in war mode, expect lots of complaints from people who want to do the event without participating in PVP.
11/14/2018 04:37 PMPosted by Ythisens
11/11/2018 03:49 PMPosted by Wintel
...Is Ion for real? He thinks that increased rewards will bring alliance back into warmode, when the vast majority of alliance have forgotten that warmode even exists?

This kind of measure is too little too late. A few alliance may turn on warmode, find themselves getting facing repeated 10v1 situations and then turn it off again.


Some time ago we made a hotfix to War Mode which enforces all War Mode shards that have both Alliance and Horde in them to have a stricter, more even ratio. We’ve been monitoring the results and so far we’ve noticed a significant improvement in “fair and balanced” shards. So much so that it’s safe to say that if you are Alliance, and you see Horde in the outdoor world in War Mode, you are a relatively even horde to alliance ratio shard. There are some rare exceptions, such as when a raid of 40 players enter a zone. It may take a bit for the “shard manager” to compensate and balance the shard.

We do have some plans in store in Tides of Vengeance (Patch 8.1) to entice the underrepresented faction with greater rewards to increase participation and create more active Horde/Allianced mixed War Mode shards. The intent of those rewards is not to give the underrepresented faction some “compensation” for being outnumbered in a War Mode shard (since that really can’t happen anymore).

We're also looking forward to what you all think about the Incursions in War Mode for 8.1, since it brings Horde and Alliance to the same location which should create some pretty fun skirmishes.


This stuff you can literally find on the front page of 15 different websites and has been stated repeatedly 5+ times blues respond to. But the things that are actually important, total f'ing silence. Omegalul
11/14/2018 04:37 PMPosted by Ythisens
It may take a bit for the “shard manager” to compensate and balance the shard.


In my experience the system isn't working for Alliance.
I like PvP, even when I'm the one who ends up dead, and am fine with being outnumbered some of the time. You can't win them all. But it happens all of the time as Alliance. We almost never have anywhere near even numbers, let alone the numbers advantage in a given area.

I don't know how often this "manager" attempts to balance shards but I can tell you I have not noticed any improvements to the numbers disparity within zones post launch.

The following is just my anecdote.
Some weeks ago, I found a group of Horde camping Seekers. (As they often do)

The group was at 18+ and more Horde kept showing up via flight path.
Alliance?.... 3 including myself. I died to this mob the second I stepped off the flight path and found my ghostly Alliance fellows hanging out.

As you can imagine, dying right on the FP and with the Horde keeping their eyes on the close GY, you have to corpse hop a bit to rez at a distance you don't get instantly jumped on and re-killed.

After just a brief time, massacring anyone who was within reach multiple times, some of the Horde raid members had started to get bounties.

Enticing, eh?
I throw up a group in LFG with every key word I can think of. Horde, WPvP, Bounties, Stormsong, Raid, Seekers, ect. At the same time I start spamming zone chat with the classic "LFM".

I do this for 20 minutes. Through the LFG and spamming zone chat I had managed to gather... 6 total Alliance.
Huh? 6 Ally v 20+ Horde? Can't very well win an honest fight with that.
Well it's what we got, so we try to kill any Horde that wander too far down the road and away from the enemy group at seekers.

Meanwhile the group remains listed in LFG and zone chat is spammed every 5 mins letting everyone know there is a group out to kill the Horde bounties at seekers and to Whisper for an invite.

After 50 minutes total... we have a group of 11 Alliance Vs their 20+ Horde.
We figured since the last addition to the group was well over 10min ago, we were not going to get much bigger. Together, we dove in. Along with whatever random Ally walked by and joined the fight. We fought the Horde, died, rezzed, fought some more, and died and rezzed some more. After about an 1h 20m from my first death exiting the flight point, we had cleared seekers of all Horde.

---Basically---, while I would have liked to form a 20+ Ally group to PvP with their 20+ Horde group with what was in the zone + LFG... it wasn't happening. Even with the best of efforts you can't scrounge up enough Ally. LFG listings seem to lack the visibility of zone chat. The majority of the group were people who saw and responded to the zone chat spam. Pulling from LFG didn't seem to help greatly in gathering more Alliance for WPvP / Bounties/ to kill Horde.
11/14/2018 05:12 PMPosted by Heckindoggo
Doggo here supplying you guys with some fresh insight as to how this works. I've drawn you a nice representation of how the new balance changes will look.

Also, is my job offer still available at Blizzard? My current job is becoming a real downer.

https://i.imgur.com/jodG3gJ.png

Comment which guy is your favorite and I may pick a winner and name him.
Are either of these going to be available in Smash?
Idiotic idea. Even assuming you buff the rewards and try to force it enough alliance are out and not coming back. All this will do is further give the horde reason to turn it back on and make the problem that much worse
you may think this has helped but it doesn't, still getting ganked 5v1, even if it is lvl on the server. it doesn't make other player want to turn on WM and those that have it on ignore you even if you need help. ally players are not joining up together like the horde is to fight back, it just not happening and at this point it has such a bad rep that even less are willing to turn it back on.
11/14/2018 04:37 PMPosted by Ythisens
such as when a raid of 40 players enter a zone. It may take a bit for the “shard manager” to compensate and balance the shard.


We need raids to be phased in against other raids. Even if it ends up 20v40. It isnt fun getting a lot of people together and running around only seeing 3-4 horde in 4 hours and it isnt fun for the 3-4 horde that runs into the big group. Even if for some odd reason 40v40 strains the hell out of the servers now, people want raid v raid and there needs to be some systems to get that going. I join a 40 man and see literally no horde. I leave the raid and go solo wqing and run into 2 different horde raids. Is there not a way to make sure people grouped over 15 get phased into shards that have raids running around?
11/08/2018 06:41 PMPosted by Triskeriaki
11/08/2018 09:07 AMPosted by Dæmônic
Especially scary is his "that's basically alliance" um no it isn't, EU Ally's overpopulate horde, and they do on RP as well. Only US normals is ally the underdogs, and not on every shard.
I'd love to see your source because it's your word against Ion's right now


You trust him at this point?
Nothing will ever entice me to enable Warmode.

PVP is completely at odds with the open world, which is for professions, dailies, and the summoning stones. If I want to PVP, I'll join a queue.
11/14/2018 04:37 PMPosted by Ythisens
There are some rare exceptions, such as when a raid of 40 players enter a zone. It may take a bit for the “shard manager” to compensate and balance the shard.

Why not keep the 40-man raid in a separate shard until the shard manager finds enough players to compensate?

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