Told Shadow and Shamans to wait till 8.1..

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
11/10/2018 04:01 PMPosted by Plytofski
Shadow priest changes are substantial, about the best you can expect honestly.

Talent changes on spriest open up different playstyles quite a bit. I don't think Ele changes are as good (Surge of Power is just a bad talent), but its definitely better than what enhance got.


Shadow changes are not substantial, and though they did slightly alleviate a personal concern of mine that Voidform (Not backloading or ramp up) needed to be a bit stronger up front compared to the rest of the spec, this wasn't a concern for many people at all and ultimately you can fairly say that none of the rotational problems that have existed with Voidform since Legion Beta have been fixed, let alone BFA.
11/10/2018 01:23 PMPosted by Magmir
Maybe there is only one class dev for all classes.


There are none, technically. Not one single dev at Blizzard is assigned full time to class balance.

They all 'share' this responsibility, which is to say, they pass around blame/work, because it's none of their responsibility.
11/10/2018 04:15 PMPosted by Hpellipsis

Shadow changes are not substantial, and though they did slightly alleviate a personal concern of mine that Voidform (Not backloading or ramp up) needed to be a bit stronger up front compared to the rest of the spec, this wasn't a concern for many people at all and ultimately you can fairly say that none of the rotational problems that have existed with Voidform since Legion Beta have been fixed, let alone BFA.


^ Also this!

All the mechanical issues with the spec that people were complaining about are completely untouched by the planned 8.1 Spriest changes. Your spells will hit 6% harder in Voidform, and 3% weaker outside of Voidform: you can't feel that.

The Dark Ascension long cycle we are currently gaming to maximize Voidform uptime is actually nerfed by this Voidform extension, meaning that the 'extended Voidform duration' is effectively neutralized.

Couple that with the Chorus of Insanity nerf, far and away our best Azerite trait, and Spriest DPS relative to other classes isn't barely improving: but I don't even care about Spriest relative DPS.

What I care about is the feel of playing Spriest.

It doesn't change the feel of the class, it certainly doesn't improve the unplayable spell rotation. Or that the long ramp-up has no pay-off. Or that mashing 2 buttons is not fun gameplay.
11/10/2018 07:39 PMPosted by Yvaelle
11/10/2018 01:23 PMPosted by Magmir
Maybe there is only one class dev for all classes.


There are none, technically. Not one single dev at Blizzard is assigned full time to class balance.

They all 'share' this responsibility, which is to say, they pass around blame/work, because it's none of their responsibility.


And quite honestly, this is the biggest cause of the unpopular class changes these past few expansions. "We design as a collective" winds up turning into co-workers with conflicting design opinions taking turns undoing each other's work based on which direction the majority pendulum swings during a patch. This is why you essentially have to relearn how to play your class and spec every new xpac, and for some every other patch. We players are unfortunately caught in the middle of all this internal back and forth.

The dev controlled, player assisted design model Xelnath introduced for the MoP Warlock was a truly superior design model that should have been adopted company wide for at least WoW class design. But instead, in typical Blizzard fashion, they scrapped it along with Xelnath. They care more about their culture than their class mechanics customer service. And here we are today, beholding the fruits of their tireless labor.
So I should expect to be benched next tier too right?
11/10/2018 12:19 PMPosted by Kabbie
It can't be the same guys who started it: class design was actually really good at certain points in the game, and just started falling apart two years ago when there was some sort of reboot to the classes.

It just can't be - nobody can be that incompetent after 14 years at the job.


Blizzard has an extremely high rate of turnover. The current design team is like 4th or 5th generation.
11/10/2018 09:19 PMPosted by Theoryxtotem
So I should expect to be benched next tier too right?


Yes, just reroll
11/10/2018 12:19 PMPosted by Kabbie
It can't be the same guys who started it: class design was actually really good at certain points in the game, and just started falling apart two years ago when there was some sort of reboot to the classes.

It just can't be - nobody can be that incompetent after 14 years at the job.


Blizz said it themselves - their good developers are working on mobile games. We get what's left . . . the ones that don't actually know how to design classes, and only play mobile games. If you look at class design and ask yourself "can I play this on my phone?" then class design in WoW makes a whole lot more sense.

WoW mobile - to be announced at Blizzcon 2019!
11/10/2018 02:23 PMPosted by Drunkgnarble
They didn't bother with fixing them in 8.0 with all the good feedback they asked for and were given. What makes you think that 9.0 will be any different?


You have a point. Guess I'm a hopeless romantic.
It comes down to this. Activision and their money grubbing ways IS the culture in Blizzard these days. If you are one of the people who are lucky to play one of the well represented classes like hunters, mages and locks, you get to play a strong class because Blizzard would rather the classes that have the highest subscriber numbers playing them, be the strongest. They know that if they attempted to do REAL class balance, they'd end up losing subs.

So shadow priests, unholy death knights, shaman of all specs, welcome to your new reality of playing an Activision game. May as well reroll now.
11/11/2018 03:33 AMPosted by Shockedface
because they know that if they attempted to do REAL class balance, they'd end up losing subs.


I don't think so, if my UDK was designed/tuned better I'd spend a lot more time in game.

If class design were the carrot on the stick for increasing time played I think we'd see a lot more people coming back/taking interest. What we have now is a slot machine experience, which doesn't work well in this game with lockouts and shorter life span.

11/11/2018 03:33 AMPosted by Shockedface
So shadow priests, unholy death knights, shaman of all specs, welcome to your new reality of playing an Activision game. May as well reroll now.


Yes, I saw the writing on the wall with the end of Beta nerfs to UDK in BFA and swapped to main Havoc. It was more stable than Rogue as far as dev attention at the time and far better than UDK. Can't bring myself to play Frost, that playstyle is pure !@#$.
im starting to think all this time went to WoW classic
11/11/2018 05:55 AMPosted by Jelleal
im starting to think all this time went to WoW classic


Ummm, did you miss Blizzard's most recent press conference? All the effort is now in mobile games, where, by their own admission, most of their top developers are now. We get the non-top developers, and it shows.
11/10/2018 09:19 PMPosted by Theoryxtotem
So I should expect to be benched next tier too right?


Re-roll a rogue, they seem to be untouchable...
Not even joking at this point.
11/11/2018 09:08 AMPosted by Aynrand
11/10/2018 09:19 PMPosted by Theoryxtotem
So I should expect to be benched next tier too right?


Re-roll a rogue, they seem to be untouchable...
Not even joking at this point.


lol rogues have actually been nerfed a few times. Try DH for something untouchable.
11/10/2018 07:54 AMPosted by Madalot
I'm at the point of wanting them fired. This is beyond a joke now.

It's the WOD devs who direct the changes for Casters and Healers. They have a stupid obsession with immobile turrets and bad archaic outdated design.
Encounter design evolves, even Melee had all their mobility doubled in Legion (which remains now, and I like that).

But instead of letting Casters and Healers have the good tools we had in MOP to cast our cruddy little filler spells while moving, and for our AOE heals to not grossly overheal random uninjured targets... both mobile casted fillers and smart healing on AOEs got removed, for "reasons".

Just because WOD has the theme of going back in time, it didn't mean their dev team had to actually go back in time when designing class changes.
It's not a conspiracy. The sad fact is, Blizzard really is this bad these days at

--game design
--class design
--story
--understanding their fan base
--PR and marketing
--damage control

Today they are good at art, animation, music, and sound and that is the sum total. That is all I'm enjoying in BFA.
Class design in this game has always been pretty bad. It started out as a game designed by some guys who played EQ a lot and who had no real design experience (and no talent at it) and just copied EQ stuff. They do some good once in awhile, but that's just pure chance over the course of 14-15 years of randomly trying stuff.


Sorry, but EverQuest had great class design. Each class had their own identities, and I still fondly remember my Bard and Druid to this day 17 years later. While WoW was a little rough at the start (ret paladins especially), they had their own identities then, and improved even further during TBC and WotLK.

BFA has taken the RPG portion out of MMORPG. If they reduce this game any further, you could port it over to mobile.
11/11/2018 07:48 PMPosted by Grianstad
Class design in this game has always been pretty bad. It started out as a game designed by some guys who played EQ a lot and who had no real design experience (and no talent at it) and just copied EQ stuff. They do some good once in awhile, but that's just pure chance over the course of 14-15 years of randomly trying stuff.


Sorry, but EverQuest had great class design. Each class had their own identities, and I still fondly remember my Bard and Druid to this day 17 years later. While WoW was a little rough at the start (ret paladins especially), they had their own identities then, and improved even further during TBC and WotLK.

BFA has taken the RPG portion out of MMORPG. If they reduce this game any further, you could port it over to mobile.


I found EQ pretty stale myself. And no, the WoW classes weren't very unique at the start, and a lot of the abilities were just copied from their EQ equivalents, because, again, the devs had no design experience. All they knew was how to copy, copy, copy, and the classes were these odd mishmashes of non-coherent design.

It was made even worse by the fact that some of the devs, like Jeff Kaplan, imported their general brand of biases as well: "I only want Warriors to tank!" set WoW class design, and general playability, back for a years. If they didn't have the Blizzard/Warcraft IP and the great art team (with their stylized art) then this game would have sunk a long time ago.

MoP era was basically them sloughing off that EQ-crust and actually trying to make something fun while ditching the old, stale, cliche fantasy class stereotypes. That's all gone now, though.

In fact, I'd argue that current WoW design has resorted to that outdated EQ-style of design, which is why it's so bad now. I mean, only Warriors should easily have an Execute, right?
11/10/2018 07:08 AMPosted by Thorhammer
Then you did nothing but numerical tuning that could have been done via hotfix 2 months ago, that people on this forum could have come up with in 10 minutes.

The class design is so bad at this point, that I almost wonder if there's some conspiracy involved.

There's no way that after having 14 years of past experience and feedback, they can be this bad, so out of touch with what the players actually want.

I'm not exaggerating at all, it's so mind mindbogglingly bad that it's almost as if it is being done on purpose. Am I the only one that has had this thought?


I honestly believe that Blizzard has lost all desire to continue with WoW and BfA is an attempt to end the IP. WoW will not die, but there won't be new content. Classic and current servers will be available to players for a subscription. If you follow the breadcrumbs everything indicates that want more than anything both; exit the MMO market and head in other directions (WoW Mobile not being sarcastic). I truly believe as someone that has been playing Blizzard games for over 2 decades that BfA is the beginning of end. There is no way that Blizzard is this incompetent.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum