Told Shadow and Shamans to wait till 8.1..

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
Just accept, they dont care anymore.
11/11/2018 07:48 PMPosted by Grianstad
Class design in this game has always been pretty bad. It started out as a game designed by some guys who played EQ a lot and who had no real design experience (and no talent at it) and just copied EQ stuff. They do some good once in awhile, but that's just pure chance over the course of 14-15 years of randomly trying stuff.


Sorry, but EverQuest had great class design. Each class had their own identities, and I still fondly remember my Bard and Druid to this day 17 years later. While WoW was a little rough at the start (ret paladins especially), they had their own identities then, and improved even further during TBC and WotLK.

BFA has taken the RPG portion out of MMORPG. If they reduce this game any further, you could port it over to mobile.


The bard was OP AF LOL or BM... SK needed love.
11/11/2018 08:57 PMPosted by Victor
There is no way that Blizzard is this incompetent.


Blizzard and the WoW team have seen a massive exodus of talent over the past 15 years. At some point that catches up with you. Ion is the epitome of this. He seems like the kind of dev who can crunch numbers well (class balance aside), but the team lacks heart and vision, because Ion is not a heart and vision type of guy.
11/11/2018 03:33 AMPosted by Shockedface
It comes down to this. Activision and their money grubbing ways IS the culture in Blizzard these days. If you are one of the people who are lucky to play one of the well represented classes like hunters, mages and locks, you get to play a strong class because Blizzard would rather the classes that have the highest subscriber numbers playing them, be the strongest. They know that if they attempted to do REAL class balance, they'd end up losing subs.

So shadow priests, unholy death knights, shaman of all specs, welcome to your new reality of playing an Activision game. May as well reroll now.


I'd Rather quit your subscription due to this game heading in the toilet, the only way they will listen is by not giving them money. <-- Not being harsh here, its the sad reality, if you really want to hit'em hard, hit them where it hurts the most, their pockets.
11/10/2018 04:15 PMPosted by Hpellipsis
11/10/2018 04:01 PMPosted by Plytofski
Shadow priest changes are substantial, about the best you can expect honestly.

Talent changes on spriest open up different playstyles quite a bit. I don't think Ele changes are as good (Surge of Power is just a bad talent), but its definitely better than what enhance got.


Shadow changes are not substantial, and though they did slightly alleviate a personal concern of mine that Voidform (Not backloading or ramp up) needed to be a bit stronger up front compared to the rest of the spec, this wasn't a concern for many people at all and ultimately you can fairly say that none of the rotational problems that have existed with Voidform since Legion Beta have been fixed, let alone BFA.


Well Said.
This is the kind of crap that we get when "all the best developers are on mobile".

BfA is just like Diablo Immortal, a project dying because Blizzard doesnt even care anymore.
11/12/2018 06:00 AMPosted by Zythane

The bard was OP AF LOL or BM... SK needed love.


Bards being OP was okay though, because that's all they were. They didn't do damage, heal, or tank. And yet, they were overpowered - because their utility was off the charts. They made the healers never run out of mana, the tanks tankier, the DPS dpsier, they got you where you wanted to be faster, they CC'd adds when you got overrun, they pulled for you, etc.

In a PvE environment, EQ Bards were a great design. If they had been anything less than the overpowered utility bots they were, they wouldn't have made sense.

Also SK's had some high points, they were one of the few classes who could solo effectively through much of the game, everyone else was group reliant. Also their DPS was actually surprisingly high - if you ever parsed them you would have noticed a geared/AA'd SK could compete with any of the tier 2 DPS (BM, Rangers, etc).

As tanks, this also meant they had some crazy high threat and self-healing, which made them bad raid tanks (true of everyone but warriors though really), but it made them the best group tanks: and a lot of the game was mythic-esque group content.

What EQ lacked was a good DPS meter like Recount/Skada to help people understand their contributions in groups. If they had that it would have made it clearer that the necro/rogues were often like 50% of your groups DPS. Or that druids were perfectly capable healers for group content, but priest stacking was the only way to beat the toughest progression raid bosses.

One of the kind of brilliant things EQ had going for it though was the lack of a DPS meter, because it also avoided community conceptions to some degree because of that: but it's not like intuitive biases didn't form - so the argument that community perception is the cause of classism in WoW holds no merit.
The current state of WoW class design has led to me remembering how much I enjoyed certain aspects of EQ. The biggest difference would probably be necro was vastly superior to BfA's affliction in the theme of "master of DoTs and drains." As mentioned, the bard was so versatile that most groups would be happy to have one despite not really excelling at any of WoW's class roles.

11/13/2018 01:36 AMPosted by Yvaelle
One of the kind of brilliant things EQ had going for it though was the lack of a DPS meter
I agree with this. You could log your damage output in EQ, but it was not nearly as easy as installing the add-ons that are readily available for WoW. It let you focus on enjoying the class you picked. I remember times where a player felt their class was a little weak compared to some others, but I never remember someone switching characters just because they wanted more DPS. It was typically because they wanted a change of pace.

EQ had a lot of design decisions that eventually led to its decline, but the fact I wonder if I might actually enjoy playing it more than the current iteration of WoW is difficult to believe.

Edit: As I think about it, I also never remember any of the casters being as poorly designed as the current shadow priest. Shaman were an interesting mix of utility, healing, and damage that could change to fit into a group depending on what you lacked.
11/13/2018 09:05 AMPosted by Hasylla

EQ had a lot of design decisions that eventually led to its decline, but the fact I wonder if I might actually enjoy playing it more than the current iteration of WoW is difficult to believe.


Yea this thought crossed my mind too recently. Brad is working on something to address that, but it's a long way off and no sure thing. The issue is really with WoW though, it's about WoW losing it's way rather than other games doing something WoW can't do.

WoW had good class design, and it today could have better class design - it just chooses not to for some reason.

Edit: As I think about it, I also never remember any of the casters being as poorly designed as the current shadow priest. Shaman were an interesting mix of utility, healing, and damage that could change to fit into a group depending on what you lacked.


I think the benefit EQ really had over WoW to this day is that it was always a PvE game. PvP existed but was such an afterthought. DAoC was PvP first.

WoW keeps trying to walk that impossible knife's edge between the two, and it's not impossible - but they aren't prepared to make the sacrifices necessary to make it work. Both PvP and PvE still make compromises, and rather than having an incredible experience in either sphere, we have a compromised experience in both spheres.

Everyone would be happier if these were two separate games in a single engine.

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