"Blizzard listened...

Classic Discussion
11/13/2018 03:54 PMPosted by Valeria
...to the community. That's how we got BfA."

Where did this line of thinking come from, because it's abject BS. I never wanted scaling, pruning, no flying, lfr, lfg, sharding, rng, or any of that.

Get absolutely rekt with that [Removed] nonsense.


The majority of the community they listened to when those changes were made were on the reddit forums.
Blizzard does not and never has used or deemed the official forums as a means of valid communication or feedback
11/13/2018 04:15 PMPosted by Azerothinian
11/13/2018 04:07 PMPosted by Dibullba
Remember the event before WotLK was released?

Yeah, I remember how much griefing there was.

11/13/2018 04:07 PMPosted by Dibullba
How it was ended early

Thank goodness. One of the worst events in WoW's history.


Curious that I recall much about that event but nothing that happened in game the weeks immediately preceding or after (I suppose Borean Tundra was immediately after.)

That to me is a memorable event, something out of the ordinary course of predetermined action. That's a success to me.

I'd like something similar during Classic's launch. And that something probably precludes a fractured community sacrificed for the sake of expedience, stability and convenience for a game that will persist in perpetuity.
11/14/2018 05:08 AMPosted by Tuathaa
11/13/2018 03:54 PMPosted by Valeria
...to the community. That's how we got BfA."

Where did this line of thinking come from, because it's abject BS. I never wanted scaling, pruning, no flying, lfr, lfg, sharding, rng, or any of that.

Get absolutely rekt with that [Removed] nonsense.


The majority of the community they listened to when those changes were made were on the reddit forums.
Blizzard does not and never has used or deemed the official forums as a means of valid communication or feedback


Actually they did for a long time, it wasn't until what think Cata or maybe WoD they moved away from the forums as their primary means of communication?

Early on they actively communicated and did back and forth with the players on the forums. For example each class had a CM and the good CM's actively participated on the forums particularly during the class reviews, then some classes had Tseric. Sadly Tseric kind of ruined that with his epic meltdown.

Of course seeing how the last blue who tried to post on this forum was treated by a certain group of people it's understandable they ignore this forum.
11/14/2018 05:08 AMPosted by Tricksyhyena
That to me is a memorable event, something out of the ordinary course of predetermined action. That's a success to me.

Perhaps.

But, a Blue poster at some point (would have to dig up the link) said that the response to the infection portion of the event was OVERWHELMINGLY negative. So, even the majority of the lauded pre-Wrath player base did not enjoy the event.

I know that when people would call in to cancel their accounts at the time (since you could still do that then) they were asking straight out if we were cancelling because of the plague event. When we said yes, they asked us to hold off because it was going to be ending early, and even offered free game time for the mistake they made in trusting the players. I think I got like a week free or something like that.

So, it seems that it really was a minority (mostly griefers) that enjoyed that event.

It disrupting my playtime wasn't even what bugged me about it. It was the forced PvP aspect of it. I rolled on a PvE server to avoid PvP, and here it was forced on me. (Much like the cloak quest in MoP. Did it, but wasn't happy about it.)

The event had an interesting premise, but it was implemented badly. You can not trust the player base with anything.
11/13/2018 03:54 PMPosted by Valeria
...to the community. That's how we got BfA."

Where did this line of thinking come from, because it's abject BS. I never wanted scaling, pruning, no flying, lfr, lfg, sharding, rng, or any of that.

Get absolutely rekt with that [Removed] nonsense.


Just because you didn't want something, didn't mean other people didn't and doesn't mean Blizzard didn't listen to them.

Long, long ago there was a Blizzard that said "no - we're never doing that". Then something happened they started "doing that" and it just snowballed.

I mean, seriously. You can go just buy an almost max level character now - you don't even have to play the game anymore...

Listening to the community is exactly how we got into this mess; but there is also a lot of blame to put into Blizzards development frame of mind... Creating zone after zone after zone and raising the max level for each expansion was also a terrible idea, yet they continue to do it. There are so many other ways to create an expansion that doesn't just add more pointless content to the game, while also creating a wasteland in existing content.

They ruined their own game by expanding poorly and creating far too much needless content that makes the world feel dead, and by caving into fans/money and doing things they literally laughed at us about and said they'd never do.
11/13/2018 05:07 PMPosted by Coniferous
11/13/2018 05:02 PMPosted by Joynal
Inconvenience in a game should come from the game and not the actions of other players.


This is the philosophical pve/pvp divide. Other players impacting my gameplay is a good thing and makes the world far more interesting and alive.


Couldn't agree less with the female gnome priest and more with you. This is exactly why we need PvP servers back.

The greatest moments in wow were when other players were involved. I still remember a bunch of level 30s battling a 60 warrior in stromgarde keep, the great part was we actually won with a little skill. With all the expansions and idiotic number scaling this kind of thing became impossible. And that's when the glory of wow faded into the drivel we have today.
Speaking of PvP servers, how pointless is War Mode? Like I am Horde and I literally just bully Alliance out of it to prove what a mistake it is giving bonus rewards to world quests and such. Like if people want to PvP in the open world, then they will turn it on. Yet Blizz applies this "incentive" to have War Mode on with a claim that it adds to the "RP" element of Alliance vs. Horde.
11/14/2018 05:16 AMPosted by Ziryus
11/14/2018 05:08 AMPosted by Tuathaa
...

The majority of the community they listened to when those changes were made were on the reddit forums.
Blizzard does not and never has used or deemed the official forums as a means of valid communication or feedback


Actually they did for a long time, it wasn't until what think Cata or maybe WoD they moved away from the forums as their primary means of communication?

Early on they actively communicated and did back and forth with the players on the forums. For example each class had a CM and the good CM's actively participated on the forums particularly during the class reviews, then some classes had Tseric. Sadly Tseric kind of ruined that with his epic meltdown.

Of course seeing how the last blue who tried to post on this forum was treated by a certain group of people it's understandable they ignore this forum.


It took a serious downturn after Street left and imo they started prioritizing social media over game development.

As for the cm's that posted here. They are cm's thats their job and they both have dealt with worse. Thread should have been locked before it got to the point it did.
But i do agree they should have been allowed to come here and post their opinions like everyone else as a Blue and not get flamed to the point they were..
11/14/2018 03:33 AMPosted by Emt
11/13/2018 07:44 PMPosted by Slappypappy
I agree and have said before I remember people making forums post about these things, about how 40 man raids were extreme, about how traveling was slow, leveling was painful, always being broke, class balance etc. Well we got fixes to all these things. Some people may look back and be like damn maybe the old way was the good way and that is fine you know the saying be careful what you wish for, but lets not pretend blizzard put these things in game out of the blue and no one asked for them, just about everyone asked for them.


11/13/2018 10:10 PMPosted by Sylphen
The problem is compounding complaints. Effectively, each time the game is reduced in difficulty it gives rise to people that are interested in the game for the convenience. This new round of players then complains when something is just a touch too difficult, then the bar is lowered again and new players join at that new bar of difficulty. It's a cycle that continues till you end up with a mount collecting, achievement gathering crowd that doesn't like anything if it takes more than 5 minutes to obtain.


The issue is one of knee jerk reaction. Ok movement is slow....boost it up a bit. Balance is off....change it a bit. What Blizz does is 2 things instead; massive change to structure of game when it is asked for and massive change to the game when it isn't asked for. Both instances are totally off the rails. Just watch, Blood Dk is OP right now, Blizz will nerf them into the ground....they do not need to do this when just a little tweak is required, but you will see changes like -20% to this and that baseline ability is now a talent and a proc is now 5% down from 35% and then Bloods will be on the forums crying WTH and they will be in the right.

I hate it when players are blamed for things in this game when it is the devs that are the one's doing the changes. Here is flight, ooooooo here is no flight, ok here is flight but here is also a massive pathfinder time gate. Small changes!!!!!! But all this is moot anyway. If you play the game right it is F2P and thanks to in game gold purchase the game is P2W....the hallmarks of a game that is ready for a fork to be stuck into it. AoC.


There were a few knee jerk reactions flight being one of them things was there was really nothing wrong with flying, a few whines here and there about world pvp which lets me honest was a dying breed by the time max level at TBC came around. Then WoD came out and blizzard was like nope no flying because.... and honestly it was an over reaction to whatever issue they saw. The Blood DK issue is they will go to extreme one way blood DK are in need of a small nerf hit but blizzard will beat them with the nerf bat. I wont disagree some changes were extreme and not needed or even close to what was asked for, however a good amount of changes came from the players asking for it.
NAwh, most QoL was added not because players asked but the dev's thought they were better.

The first instance was LFD, never asked for but was put in and never explained why besides 'we thought it would improve the game' (also remember their motto was 'we know best' still)
second was trash in general was to easy, you could just face pull and never die because you could AoE tank WAAAAY to easy. During Cata people complained when mobs hit to hard lol
Third was LFR, everyone should understand why >.>
Fourth was when they made Normal to easy to help differentiate LFR, N, HM easier
Fifth was Garrison, can make to much gold for basically doing nothing (now with Arathi quests it's even easier to get resources)
Sixth 'Welfare' gear due to M+ farming, and warfronts being mindlessly easy to gear up through.
Seventh Lvling has only been getting WAAAAAAY to easy

Now most of these WHERE not asked by the community but was still implemented to 'improve' players QoL but only caused the opposite.
Some are what players wanted but honestly, not a lot.
Look for posts containing the phrases "I PAY $15 A MONTH", "The customer is always right!" or "I don't have time to do 'x' for 'y' hours a day" and you should find the culprits
11/13/2018 04:19 PMPosted by Healsalot
11/13/2018 04:07 PMPosted by Dibullba
Remember the event before WotLK was released? How it was ended early because people cried about how inconvenient it was to them? That was where it all started. It was the small hint that Blizz could be swayed if they felt it was a risk to the bottom line. So I don't blame Blizz (for most things). In the end, it is a specific community that lead WoW down the path it went. But if it were not for them, WoW probably would not still be around to this day either. So now we will get Classic and we will be sure that it plays the way it should. Loot trading is not a huge problem, but I will be gone if sharding is still around by time my subscription ends a month into Classic.


Loot trading is a problem Dibullba, if your in a dungeon of 3-4 randoms who are friends and one of them wants the item all he/she will have to do is say, "hey need roll on that I want it" in discord, then they trade it to him/her. It doesn't happen much in BFA because everyone playing is rushing to the end quickly and dungeon finder means they don't need to take friends to do runs. I know you will say to bring my own friends in classic, well I don't have any. I would rather lose to RNG than to favoritism any day.


Not everyone will be a douchebag. I have hope there are people like myself that roll Need on main-spec and ask if anyone else needs on off-spec.

People like you described could already do that. They would just open a ticket to have it traded to his buddy instead. It takes a little longer, but thats already a thing.
11/14/2018 07:22 AMPosted by Bangnfire
NAwh, most QoL was added not because players asked but the dev's thought they were better.

The first instance was LFD, never asked for but was put in and never explained why besides 'we thought it would improve the game' (also remember their motto was 'we know best' still)
second was trash in general was to easy, you could just face pull and never die because you could AoE tank WAAAAY to easy. During Cata people complained when mobs hit to hard lol
Third was LFR, everyone should understand why >.>
Fourth was when they made Normal to easy to help differentiate LFR, N, HM easier
Fifth was Garrison, can make to much gold for basically doing nothing (now with Arathi quests it's even easier to get resources)
Sixth 'Welfare' gear due to M+ farming, and warfronts being mindlessly easy to gear up through.
Seventh Lvling has only been getting WAAAAAAY to easy

Now most of these WHERE not asked by the community but was still implemented to 'improve' players QoL but only caused the opposite.
Some are what players wanted but honestly, not a lot.


LFD/LFG were actually asked for in some form maybe not the automatic grouping system in place with it but the old way of sitting in the city for sometimes felt like forever yelling LF1M.... was a method plenty complained about.

LFR wasn't asked for however it wasn't a QoL type deal it was put in because when allocating money on different resources blizzard was struggling to justify putting much into raids when only a small % of the player base of getting to experience it so they made LFR so more could experience content. Making the raids easier then normal was again because they made this feature but putting 25 randos together doesn't bode well so had to scale the fights down.

Garrison was not asked for at all people wanted player or guild houses and ya blizzard thought well here are garrisons.

Welfare epics is one of those knee jerk reactions people wanted a better more faster way to be geared however no one wanted it raining epics.

leveling well that both people wanted a way to level their alts faster from 1 to 110 (using current expac level) however no one wanted to blow through leveling through the new expac to be a joke which it was.
11/13/2018 04:15 PMPosted by Azerothinian
11/13/2018 04:07 PMPosted by Dibullba
Remember the event before WotLK was released?

Yeah, I remember how much griefing there was.

11/13/2018 04:07 PMPosted by Dibullba
How it was ended early

Thank goodness. One of the worst events in WoW's history.

Fun detected, beep beep removing fun in aisle 37.
11/13/2018 03:54 PMPosted by Valeria
...to the community. That's how we got BfA."

Where did this line of thinking come from. I never wanted scaling, pruning, no flying, lfr, lfg, sharding, rng, or any of that.


You’re the minority. This line of thinking came from logic
11/14/2018 07:12 AMPosted by Slappypappy
11/14/2018 03:33 AMPosted by Emt
...

...

The issue is one of knee jerk reaction. Ok movement is slow....boost it up a bit. Balance is off....change it a bit. What Blizz does is 2 things instead; massive change to structure of game when it is asked for and massive change to the game when it isn't asked for. Both instances are totally off the rails. Just watch, Blood Dk is OP right now, Blizz will nerf them into the ground....they do not need to do this when just a little tweak is required, but you will see changes like -20% to this and that baseline ability is now a talent and a proc is now 5% down from 35% and then Bloods will be on the forums crying WTH and they will be in the right.

I hate it when players are blamed for things in this game when it is the devs that are the one's doing the changes. Here is flight, ooooooo here is no flight, ok here is flight but here is also a massive pathfinder time gate. Small changes!!!!!! But all this is moot anyway. If you play the game right it is F2P and thanks to in game gold purchase the game is P2W....the hallmarks of a game that is ready for a fork to be stuck into it. AoC.


There were a few knee jerk reactions flight being one of them things was there was really nothing wrong with flying, a few whines here and there about world pvp which lets me honest was a dying breed by the time max level at TBC came around. Then WoD came out and blizzard was like nope no flying because.... and honestly it was an over reaction to whatever issue they saw. The Blood DK issue is they will go to extreme one way blood DK are in need of a small nerf hit but blizzard will beat them with the nerf bat. I wont disagree some changes were extreme and not needed or even close to what was asked for, however a good amount of changes came from the players asking for it.


Blizzard did not restrict flying because of PvP players like myself. I wish I could claim credit for that but maybe you should read some of their posts about why they had "cold weather flying" in Wrath etc. It was so players would not skip all of the content they had created and merely fly over the new expac content. They wanted players to travel through the world not over it.

What they should have done back when they first introduced flying was give players a short stamina bar for their flying mounts so it wouldn't be so easy and convenient. Then they wouldn't have needed to cut players off from flying entirely til max level + gold paid like they ended up doing each expac.
11/14/2018 07:04 AMPosted by Tuathaa
11/14/2018 05:16 AMPosted by Ziryus
...

Actually they did for a long time, it wasn't until what think Cata or maybe WoD they moved away from the forums as their primary means of communication?

Early on they actively communicated and did back and forth with the players on the forums. For example each class had a CM and the good CM's actively participated on the forums particularly during the class reviews, then some classes had Tseric. Sadly Tseric kind of ruined that with his epic meltdown.

Of course seeing how the last blue who tried to post on this forum was treated by a certain group of people it's understandable they ignore this forum.


It took a serious downturn after Street left and imo they started prioritizing social media over game development.

As for the cm's that posted here. They are cm's thats their job and they both have dealt with worse. Thread should have been locked before it got to the point it did.
But i do agree they should have been allowed to come here and post their opinions like everyone else as a Blue and not get flamed to the point they were..


With regards to the aforementioned CM's and their posts, if I remember correctly, although they were only posting their PERSONAL OPINIONS and NOT an official Blizzard stance, only one of them made any reference to what they were posting being their opinion and he only did so in an offhand manner.

While I agree that CM's should be able to post their opinions, I believe that they should also make it very clear when they are posting their personal opinions that what they are posting is ONLY their PERSONAL opinion and NOT to be taken as any kind of official Blizzard stance, policy, request for feedback, etc.

We all saw how quickly those desiring to change classic into Classic + (or worse yet, simply sabotage classic) latched onto those posts and touted them as official Blizzard policy and official Blizzard requests for "feedback" on all sorts of non vanilla QOL convenience changes simply because the text was blue.
11/13/2018 03:54 PMPosted by Valeria
I never wanted scaling, pruning, no flying, lfr, lfg


Plenty did though, and the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I was there watching as people asked for this stuff. I debated them on all of these issues, and was always disappointed because Blizzard would always take the side of the convenience crowd.
11/13/2018 06:01 PMPosted by Executõr
11/13/2018 05:07 PMPosted by Coniferous
...

This is the philosophical pve/pvp divide. Other players impacting my gameplay is a good thing and makes the world far more interesting and alive.


There is a huge difference between being ganked by players and what happened with the wrath event, it became impossible to do anything but grind to level for the duration of the event, almost every questing hub and camp was nothing but PVE zombies who would kill you and give you a durability loss death if you even attempted to get or turn in quests.

I remember all of this quite clearly because me and a friend were trying to level new mains at the time, it was beyond moronic as an event. We opted for dungeon grinding, it was THAT bad and still got killed many many times by zombies when we moved between dungeons.

I did have some fun on my main at the time doing the event but the amount of vitriol and profanity that came my way for curing the infected on that shaman was hilarious.

The biggest problem was that far, far more people were interested in spreading the contagion than fighting the invasion.


Pretty much all of this except the alt-grinding part as I had no alts left grinding at that stage. Personally my preference was chain shackling while the guards killed the griefers for durability loss but yes, plenty of abuse came my way for chasing people down and curing the disease too.

Also note that it also invalidated your server choice by implementing involuntary PvP on PvE servers (however indirectly you might want to argue it the fact is player zombies could attack unflagged players thus involuntary pvp on a pve server).
11/13/2018 03:54 PMPosted by Valeria
...to the community. That's how we got BfA."

Where did this line of thinking come from. I never wanted scaling, pruning, no flying, lfr, lfg, sharding, rng, or any of that.


Everything in moderation, they say. Most, though not all, of these systems/styles work quite well unless taken too far.

Scaling: worst on the list IMO. Scaling was introduced to counterbalance easy leveling(a good system, because no one likes leveling through 100 levels of dead content). Scaling, however, makes every level feel like a dead level, because you don't actually get stronger if everything is always your strength.

Pruning: The original characters were much more full, but often had a few abilities that were vestigal at best, and too cornercase to justify keeping on a bar(looking at you, warlocks). this one's been taken way beyond where it should have, and classes often feel sterile.

Flying: Honestly, I like flying, and I like them locking it till later on. I just wish they wouldn't force half a dozen rep grinds to get it.

LFR: If they didn't make this they wouldn't have raids. Developing content only for the hardcore raiding slice of the population is losing money. It's indirect, but LFR supports the rest of raiding. Necessary evil.

LFG: I like the manual group finder tool, but less so the "put me in a group already" button. It's supposed to be a social game, so giving people the tools to link up isn't a bad concept.

Sharding: It's not really so bad until it mixes with CRZ, which is a toxic result.

RNG: I assume you mean forging and azerite RNG, since drop tables have been in the game since pre-alpha. Yeah, that crap sucks and it's there to disguise that they don't actually have any content.

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