How is the 8.1 raid not a win for the Alliance?

Tides of Vengeance PTR General Discussion
10/10/2018 10:50 AMPosted by Nemestrïnus
10/10/2018 10:08 AMPosted by Byniri
"we won, but at what cost? [ph]"
we seriously injure Mekkatorque who will then be given a new junker gnome model and give the alliance Junker Gnome allied race


Can't stress enough how much we don't want that.. don't try to make it sound like some kind of gift. lol
10/10/2018 10:50 AMPosted by Nemestrïnus
10/10/2018 10:08 AMPosted by Byniri
"we won, but at what cost? [ph]"
we seriously injure Mekkatorque who will then be given a new junker gnome model and give the alliance Junker Gnome allied race


Please this would reroll alliance for junker gnomes haha
We come in, we kill Rasty but are then driven back and Mekkatorque gets taken down. It's a Draw, not the "getting even" that Ion promised us.
10/10/2018 05:44 PMPosted by Conorn
We come in, we kill Rasty but are then driven back and Mekkatorque gets taken down. It's a Draw, not the "getting even" that Ion promised us.


Miniature Hulk Hogan (Anduin) vs The Fem Undertaker (Sylvanas)

It's WWE!

All the bluster! All the hype! And no true winner!

Woohoo!
10/10/2018 10:08 AMPosted by Byniri
Yes there's some nonsensical writing for Jaina saying that "we won, but at what cost? [ph]",


Well, you may have won at Zuldazar, but now Sylvanas can out maneuver your entire faction by playing around Azshara as she aims the entire ocean at the Alliance to get that Scepter, which was kept safely away from Azshara's forces inside of Zuldazar. You morons.
I for one believe the actions in 8.1 are a clear Alliance victory and am really excited for those events. However let's examine why some players might feel this way.

I believe it all comes back to the War of Thorns. The invasion of Darkshore and the burning of teldrassil were both a very clear, uncontested victory for the horde. Just a flat roflstop that was only possible by writing the alliance as complete pants on head morons.

"OMG they can fly over mount Hyjal, we weren't expecting that at ALL" oh really? The Night Elves not thinking of this was so unbelievable and cringey it stung. The horde hardly lost anyone, basically just skipped merrily up to the tree, and freaking crushed it. That freaking stung, even though I understand why Blizzard did it and I do believe it was an awesome addition to the story to get us at each others throats.

Alliance players want that. They want to just crush the horde in a clear roflstomp just like WoT was. And while 8.1 sees great strides in our war effort, it's not the stomping some players feel like they deserve. Darkshore is a warfront, by definition a constant back and forth battle between two equals. "Absolute bull, we want to take Darkshore back like they took it" is what some will say. I understand this viewpoint.

I really feel this pull as well, but I don't think the solution is to make the story less interesting. I like the push and pull that the factions are doing right now. I think it's interesting and cool. The problem is with WoT, it was too much, too hard of a stomping. We want this, and there will always be that nagging feeling until we get it.
10/10/2018 10:08 AMPosted by Byniri
including the Scepter of the Seas/Tides


Im actually curious to see how this ended up going from my Resto shamans bank, to wherever they are holding it. Like I doubt it'll even be addressed ffs. Very weak storytelling.
10/10/2018 11:51 AMPosted by Luciell
10/10/2018 10:53 AMPosted by Stohliak
So alliance need to be told atta boy at every turn, got it.

Alliance is so soft. So many tears over nothing.


Your response is pretty dumb TBH.

If a game tells you you lost, why would you believe your headcanon that you won?

10/10/2018 11:10 AMPosted by Farajah
Ignoring the fact they rolled the most generic fantasy faction


It's funny that the only actual unique races. Draenei/Lightforged/Void Elves are Alliance. While every single horde race is robbed from fantasy, including the "noble savage trope.


Two of the races you named are the exact same, one just purchased the optional flash light package. Void Elves aren't terribly unique, they are just more modest Warhammer Dark Elves. Then you have gnomes, dwarfs, and humans. Literally the three most generic fantasy races of all time. You could make the argument that gnomes are less so, but they do seem to pop up a lot.

Meanwhile, the Horde has Orcs (which are pretty generic), Imperial Trolls that are the better-postured cousins of the dancing Trolls, who themselves are pretty uniquely portrayed. Heavy Metal sapient zombies, industrious capitalist goblins who wouldn't stab you first and believe in fair dealings, minotaurs with actual intelligence, and their moose upgraded cousins. You also have Blood Elves, I guess.
10/10/2018 11:26 AMPosted by Tetsubin
10/10/2018 11:10 AMPosted by Farajah
The Alliance could have an unquestionable victory, Sylvanas' head on a pike, Nathanos strung up in front of Stormwind's gates, Rokhan the new castle jester, Bain made into Bainburgers, the Nightborne chick a slave for Genn, Gallywix Gallydead, and he would still focus on the one guy who died.

Then the Alliance players would storm the forums complaining that it is a clear indicator of Horde Bias.


When the Alliance loses something, it's Horde bias because the Alliance lost.
When the Horde loses something, it's also Horde bias because "story you don't like is still story."


When the Alliance loses something it's nuked out of Time and Space forever.

When the Horde loses something, it's usually because the Horde were the ones that blew it up/blighted it.
People dont get it.

The horde straight up destroyed one of the alliance main cities permantly, killing the entire population with no loss at all.

Then we come to Zandalar, take out their (zandalari) king and lose one of our leaders in the process, obviously leaving the city in one piece. Not even talking about the incompetence incarnate that is called Tyrande in 8.1.

Tell me again how alliance evens out what happened in the war of thorns?
This is a negligible squabble compared to Darnassus.
On its own terms, it is a win for the Alliance. Looking a bit deeper, the Alliance swapped an underused faction leader for an incompetent king. It’s hardly an awesome, crushing victory like WoT, but it’s not too shabby.

Not looking forward to cringeworthy finger wagging about losses from Anduin, but there you go.

Funny that both sides now have a major leader who’s a Mary Sue character now. That princess is Anduin's exact counterpart.
10/10/2018 05:44 PMPosted by Conorn
We come in, we kill Rasty but are then driven back and Mekkatorque gets taken down. It's a Draw, not the "getting even" that Ion promised us.


Rasta-man is dead. Mekkabork is getting an upgrade.
10/10/2018 05:53 PMPosted by Bruvnondus
I for one believe the actions in 8.1 are a clear Alliance victory and am really excited for those events. However let's examine why some players might feel this way.

I believe it all comes back to the War of Thorns. The invasion of Darkshore and the burning of teldrassil were both a very clear, uncontested victory for the horde. Just a flat roflstop that was only possible by writing the alliance as complete pants on head morons.

"OMG they can fly over mount Hyjal, we weren't expecting that at ALL" oh really? The Night Elves not thinking of this was so unbelievable and cringey it stung. The horde hardly lost anyone, basically just skipped merrily up to the tree, and freaking crushed it. That freaking stung, even though I understand why Blizzard did it and I do believe it was an awesome addition to the story to get us at each others throats.

Alliance players want that. They want to just crush the horde in a clear roflstomp just like WoT was. And while 8.1 sees great strides in our war effort, it's not the stomping some players feel like they deserve. Darkshore is a warfront, by definition a constant back and forth battle between two equals. "Absolute bull, we want to take Darkshore back like they took it" is what some will say. I understand this viewpoint.

I really feel this pull as well, but I don't think the solution is to make the story less interesting. I like the push and pull that the factions are doing right now. I think it's interesting and cool. The problem is with WoT, it was too much, too hard of a stomping. We want this, and there will always be that nagging feeling until we get it.


Well it's that and horde raise undead night elves who are instantly loyal of their own free will to the lich queen and we don't even get to actually kill her boy toy he just leaves laughing all the way. Also if Malf didn't save her "superpowered" tyrande would be another "free willed" forsaken stooge now.
10/10/2018 11:48 AMPosted by Sharaesdel
So, Mekkatorque becomes a mechagnome to bring the mechagnome into the Alliance as an allied race...when only 3% or so of the Alliance play gnomes in general. Uh...yay us?


Also, it's questionable that we want to play mechagnomes just because we already play organic gnomes.

I'm sure some non-gnome players may play a mechagnome because hey, something different. I'm sure some gnome players feel as Kelsey Steelspark does (she explicitly says sometimes she wishes she were a machine). But I have eight gnomes at 110 or higher and have no desire to race change any or roll a new mechagnome. I doubt that a significant portion of gnomes will be replaced by mechagnomes. It's going to be a stupidly niche race, if I had to guess.
10/12/2018 04:17 AMPosted by Malaprop
But I have eight gnomes at 110 or higher and have no desire to race change any or roll a new mechagnome. I doubt that a significant portion of gnomes will be replaced by mechagnomes. It's going to be a stupidly niche race, if I had to guess.

Having 8 gnomes is 9 too many.

Only possible reason to have mechagnomes I can see is so they can survive the annual Gnomeregan Race without high-level chaperones (because punting mechagnomes hurts the feet). So yes, only one day a year we should have gnomes.
10/10/2018 10:50 AMPosted by Nemestrïnus
10/10/2018 10:08 AMPosted by Byniri
"we won, but at what cost? [ph]"
we seriously injure Mekkatorque who will then be given a new junker gnome model and give the alliance Junker Gnome allied race


Lol as if. Gnomes are already super unpopular. Mecha gnomes would be played by 0.001% population.
Also, I might as well point out something to the devs at Blizzard, who, like the players here, never actually play Alliance:

We don’t destroy the Zandalari fleet in this patch.

We did that during our war campaign. Yeah, I know, it’s shocking that someone actually pays attention to quest text. But that quest where we were swimming around planting bombs? Yeah, that’s when we eliminate the Zandalari fleet.

The only thing this raid gets us is two wounded faction leaders and the enmity of the Zandalari. They would have never even known we were there.
10/10/2018 10:08 AMPosted by Byniri


I just see no way or reasoning to say this isn't a big victory for the Alliance in almost every way.


Rule 1: Alliance can't win unless it's a complete steam roll.

Rule 2: Horde can't lose unless it's a complete steam roll.
10/12/2018 06:23 AMPosted by Ymiron
<span class="truncated">...</span>we seriously injure Mekkatorque who will then be given a new junker gnome model and give the alliance Junker Gnome allied race


Lol as if. Gnomes are already super unpopular. Mecha gnomes would be played by 0.001% population.


You seem to think that Ion "the horde is there waiting for you" wouldn't find it hilarious to give the alliance another race nobody wants.
10/10/2018 10:08 AMPosted by Byniri
In Siege of Zuldazar, Alliance makes the Horde look incompetent by tricking them into sending all their troops to Nazmir via illusion (seriously wtf?), raids the city and razes it, steals a ton of Zandalari treasures, including the Scepter of the Seas/Tides (therefore invalidating like 75% of the Horde war campaign), kills Rastakhan, decimates the Zandalari navy, leaves without any major losses of main characters, and wins to a point where even Sylvanas fears the Alliance is close to winning the faction war.

Yes there's some nonsensical writing for Jaina saying that "we won, but at what cost? [ph]", but so far there's little evidence pointing towards anything that would bring her to saying that (blame bad writing for this one, I will be fair). In fact, there's some other dialogue that suggests the opposite, that the Kul'Tirans and Gnomes (!!!) actually do a very good job holding off the Horde when they push to the docks to prevent too many losses.

I just see no way or reasoning to say this isn't a big victory for the Alliance in almost every way.


Cause we are BETTER.

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