RETRIBUTION Paladin needs fixing

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
RETRIBUTION Paladin needs fixing - BLIZZARD reply

Hello Blizzard, it seems that all you do is keep nerfing ret palading without giving any thought to the class itself and the lack of luster .. lack of dps .. lack of of everything except us having a bubble and a lay on hands

it is almost pointless trying to do anything because everyone will rather have a rogue or warrior or demon hunter or anything else other than a hybrid class that has no comparable DPS

why is Blizzard hating ret paladins so much
Agreed. Maybe more people will bump this and we can get a reply.
Here is where we sit currently in all forms of content:

Raids - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19

M+ - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/20#

2's - https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pvp-stats/classes/2v2/2200-rating

3's - https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pvp-stats/classes/3v3/2200-rating

RBG - https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pvp-stats/classes/bg/2200-rating

Could we get a Blue to let us know what our niche is meant to be? What are we meant to do well? Currently, we are exactly average in 3's, subpar in everything else except raids where we are beyond subpar (see last place).

Arena for ret has the same issues its always had. Extreme susceptibility to dispels, roots and snares.

In RBG we don't output enough dmg to be a worthwhile pickup and we don't fill any of the niche rolls.

In PVE our dmg is low.

In M+, we don't have the big utility items to be included in parties and once again, we do low damage. Wisdom gives the healer 6% mana per minute. Would you rather your healer had mana for 1-2 more heals, or just kill the mobs 20% faster with a class that can aoe or cleave.
I don't expect more than some % buffs to our abilites. Mechanically and talentwise nothing will change (e.g. downtimes, AoE, utility, dead talents).
This whole "doubling down on strengths (and weaknesses)" was a big mistake, but knowing blizzard, nothing will change before the next expansion.
You guys are getting new animations

thats like +100000 dps
Blizz hates Ret. We will always be known as lolret and never be competitive cause of the WoW community.
Until we as the ret community do what others have, FLOOD the forums with complaints they will simply ignore us. From lack of REAL utility to subpar dps and no good mobility we are literally the wheelchair class of this expac.

And with blizzcon on the horizon I don't expect a blue will grace us with their presence but who knows stranger things have happened.
I don't understand why Blizz gives certain specs big glaring weaknesses as some sort of tradeoff for some niche "strength", when there's other specs that have all the same strengths with none of the weaknesses.

I mean compare Havoc DH for example. Great single target (better than ret on all ST bosses), crazy good AoE without even sacrificing single target (way better than ret), ridiculous mobility (way better than ret), extremely valuable utility (chaos brand, darkness, aoe stun, imprison AND a purge, argueably better than or equal to ret) and even some of the best self healing (logs show them first for healing among dps..). So uh... what is their weakness supposed to be exactly?? They're near the top of every category.

Meanwhile you got Ret with utter joke mobility and pretty bad AoE/cleave which requires sacrificing ST massively by trading one finisher for another (unlike many other specs which can cleave with their ST abilities or press one button to add cleave for x amoutn of time)... big weaknesses and their "strengths" (single target? utility?) are still equal or below other specs.

Specs like still DH, Assassin Rogue, Frost DK, Arms etc beat Ret on mostly ST fights like Fetid/Taloc/etc which is allegedly supposed to be Ret's "strength", then also absolutely crush Ret on cleave fights like Zul doing literally almost 2x the DPS and in most cases having far better mobility. How is this fair???

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#boss=2145
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#boss=2128
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#boss=2144
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#

Being bottom of the logs and having terrible mobility is not a fun combo. Oh and no one wants ret in mythic+, so that's great too..
Blizzard: we will make ret strong (lol) single target with no cleave.

Blizzard: nearly every fight is cleave.

i started to level my dk alt (I’m a masochist I know) but when I see demon hunters I just think why bother?
I’m glad ret paladins are starting to grumble because as stated earlier in order to get buffs you have to whine but holy hell after 14 years and still this bad with class balance..
But you guys can tank and heal!

(Sarcasm)

Hope you guys get attention <3
Theres a pretty sizeable thread from MB, admin of the HoW discord, trying to talk about the same issues. The spec really needs the attention rn, if people have opinions try and get to every thread you can find.
Ret is in a bad spot? Btw this is the World of Warcraft forums if you were referring to a different game. Ret pallys are always topping the charts.
10/23/2018 07:16 AMPosted by Olluul
I don't understand why Blizz gives certain specs big glaring weaknesses as some sort of tradeoff for some niche "strength", when there's other specs that have all the same strengths with none of the weaknesses.

I mean compare Havoc DH for example. Great single target (better than ret on all ST bosses), crazy good AoE without even sacrificing single target (way better than ret), ridiculous mobility (way better than ret), extremely valuable utility (chaos brand, darkness, aoe stun, imprison AND a purge, argueably better than or equal to ret) and even some of the best self healing (logs show them first for healing among dps..). So uh... what is their weakness supposed to be exactly?? They're near the top of every category.

Meanwhile you got Ret with utter joke mobility and pretty bad AoE/cleave which requires sacrificing ST massively (unlike many other specs which can cleave with their ST abilities)... big weaknesses and their "strengths" (single target? utility?) are still equal or below other specs.

Specs like still DH, Assassin Rogue, Frost DK, Arms etc beat Ret on mostly ST fights like Fetid/Taloc/etc which is allegedly supposed to be Ret's "strength", then also absolutely crush Ret on cleave fights like Zul doing literally almost 2x the DPS and in most cases having far better mobility. How is this fair???

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#boss=2145
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#boss=2128
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#boss=2144
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#

Being bottom of the logs and having terrible mobility is not a fun combo. Oh and no one wants ret in mythic+, so that's great too..


Ret is completely fine.

We have Freedom, BoP, LoH, Cleanse, ST healing and optional group healing (clutch, but incredibly useful in many situations). I've prevented MANY, many wipes with those skills. Specially WoG and LoH.

It's more like Havoc is stupid/mindless when it comes to damage, specially AoE, since it's pretty much the same rotation as ST. But I guess it's by design.

As for logs try using some more realistic data, like Normal and Heroic, where ret is mid of the pack.

Or try using simcraft to see what numbers are like in perfect rotations.

Overall, MOST specs are in need of a tuning pass to balance things out, but are plenty fine otherwise.
On a slightly related note: can we get blessing of spellwarding as a talent? It’s a fun talent
10/22/2018 11:13 PMPosted by Lightwåll
Here is where we sit currently in all forms of content:

Raids - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19

M+ - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/20#

2's - https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pvp-stats/classes/2v2/2200-rating

3's - https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pvp-stats/classes/3v3/2200-rating

RBG - https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pvp-stats/classes/bg/2200-rating

Could we get a Blue to let us know what our niche is meant to be? What are we meant to do well? Currently, we are exactly average in 3's, subpar in everything else except raids where we are beyond subpar (see last place).

Arena for ret has the same issues its always had. Extreme susceptibility to dispels, roots and snares.

In RBG we don't output enough dmg to be a worthwhile pickup and we don't fill any of the niche rolls.

In PVE our dmg is low.

In M+, we don't have the big utility items to be included in parties and once again, we do low damage. Wisdom gives the healer 6% mana per minute. Would you rather your healer had mana for 1-2 more heals, or just kill the mobs 20% faster with a class that can aoe or cleave.


This is quite frankly the most useful post I've seen in a while.

As a 382 Ret Paladin, a guild leader of my mythic raid guild, and a player who has played multiple classes since 2004... I can tell you that Ret is literally 'useless' because as listed above people can just bring nearly any other melee (except Enhance Shaman) and they can do it better for the same slot.

There is no "niche" -- even our burst is massively outclassed by other dps classes at this point.

-Crusade was better for Ret back when it was 'unfortunately' the "only talent choice" - but lasted 30s~ with legion legendaries...
-Mobility isn't really a big deal but the nerf to Wake of Ashes was a bit much (30s-->45s for BFA?)
-Divine Storm is a laughable wet noodle
-Consecrate not baseline (as it is for prot and holy) for being garbage

The only thing we have is durability and hybrid offheals (which aren't really needed if your healers are good) as well as blessings which are irrelevant (Wisdom < Higher Raid DPS, thus eliminating the need for Wisdom)
10/23/2018 07:23 PMPosted by Ashania
10/23/2018 07:16 AMPosted by Olluul
I don't understand why Blizz gives certain specs big glaring weaknesses as some sort of tradeoff for some niche "strength", when there's other specs that have all the same strengths with none of the weaknesses.

I mean compare Havoc DH for example. Great single target (better than ret on all ST bosses), crazy good AoE without even sacrificing single target (way better than ret), ridiculous mobility (way better than ret), extremely valuable utility (chaos brand, darkness, aoe stun, imprison AND a purge, argueably better than or equal to ret) and even some of the best self healing (logs show them first for healing among dps..). So uh... what is their weakness supposed to be exactly?? They're near the top of every category.

Meanwhile you got Ret with utter joke mobility and pretty bad AoE/cleave which requires sacrificing ST massively (unlike many other specs which can cleave with their ST abilities)... big weaknesses and their "strengths" (single target? utility?) are still equal or below other specs.

Specs like still DH, Assassin Rogue, Frost DK, Arms etc beat Ret on mostly ST fights like Fetid/Taloc/etc which is allegedly supposed to be Ret's "strength", then also absolutely crush Ret on cleave fights like Zul doing literally almost 2x the DPS and in most cases having far better mobility. How is this fair???

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#boss=2145
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#boss=2128
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#boss=2144
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#

Being bottom of the logs and having terrible mobility is not a fun combo. Oh and no one wants ret in mythic+, so that's great too..


Ret is completely fine.

We have Freedom, BoP, LoH, Cleanse, ST healing and optional group healing (clutch, but incredibly useful in many situations). I've prevented MANY, many wipes with those skills. Specially WoG and LoH.

It's more like Havoc is stupid/mindless when it comes to damage, specially AoE, since it's pretty much the same rotation as ST. But I guess it's by design.

As for logs try using some more realistic data, like Normal and Heroic, where ret is mid of the pack.

Or try using simcraft to see what numbers are like in perfect rotations.

Overall, MOST specs are in need of a tuning pass to balance things out, but are plenty fine otherwise.


You clearly aren't referring to the harder content in the game where your class is completely benched. I had to level my rogue after not playing it for 8 years just to do mythic raid content because of both how class design for ret is (versus other very limited melee slots) and how the raids are designed (so punishing on melee on many fights that it makes class representation a huge problem)
10/23/2018 07:23 PMPosted by Ashania
10/23/2018 07:16 AMPosted by Olluul


https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#boss=2145
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#boss=2128
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#boss=2144
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#

Being bottom of the logs and having terrible mobility is not a fun combo. Oh and no one wants ret in mythic+, so that's great too..


Ret is completely fine.

We have Freedom, BoP, LoH, Cleanse, ST healing and optional group healing (clutch, but incredibly useful in many situations). I've prevented MANY, many wipes with those skills. Specially WoG and LoH.

It's more like Havoc is stupid/mindless when it comes to damage, specially AoE, since it's pretty much the same rotation as ST. But I guess it's by design.

As for logs try using some more realistic data, like Normal and Heroic, where ret is mid of the pack.

Or try using simcraft to see what numbers are like in perfect rotations.

Overall, MOST specs are in need of a tuning pass to balance things out, but are plenty fine otherwise.


LFR DH says Ret is fine, okayy, really compelling evidence lets ignore all the data in favor of this anecdote expertise. Being one of the least used specs in high mythic+ and dead last in mythic uldir is somehow "fine" because they're only 6th from last instead in heroic uldir!

Mythic logs are the most relevant data, that's what blizz tunes around at this point. Simulations are useless for balance, of course an immobile spec will do a bit better on a single target target dummy with 0 movement... which no raids are actually like. And even on those sims, a supposedly ideal Ret fight, Ret is STILL only middle of the pack... losing to classes with better mobility and far, far stronger cleave/AoE damage some of which don't even lose ST damage when cleaving/AoEing (Ret on the other hand has to sacrifice the vast majority of their ST just to do crappy AoE/cleave).

Who cares about normal/heroic logs at this time? Many movement mechanics can be ignored (which hurts an immobile class usually) and some fights last like a minute, Avenging Wrath + Heroism uptime is large which is prime time for Ret. Completely irrelevant for balance and even in those Ret is near the bottom anyway. You can bring literally any spec and clear normal/heroic at this point, no one is looking at normal logs and saying "sorry bro, your spec is too weak for this normal faceroll raid". But it happens in mythic raiding, for sure.
Ret is fine on single target. The problem is the encounter design right now on the important fights in uldir and m+ is all about cleave/aoe.

Our aoe is being addressed in 8.1. Not sure it will be enough but they know it's a problem.
Same game, different expansion. Every. Single. Time. Ret players always crying because they aren't top of everything in game therefore they need fixing. Nerf ret again imo.
10/24/2018 07:31 AMPosted by Rouxgaroux
Same game, different expansion. Every. Single. Time. Ret players always crying because they aren't top of everything in game therefore they need fixing. Nerf ret again imo.


We aren't the top of anything right now. We can compete on single target, I won't deny that, but overall this tier we are the bottom dps with arcane mages.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum