Blizzard lfr is a que so why not m0?

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11/11/2018 09:32 PMPosted by Jalen

I'm not wrong. You thinking that M+ doesn't get effected by M0 getting nerfed is pretty blind.


I apologise. I thought you were just being obstinate, but it seems you literally don't know what Luck Of The Draw is. So you're just ignorant, and that's not your fault. Not everyone can understand complex abstract concepts like a player buff.
11/11/2018 09:22 PMPosted by Aewendil
Let's be clear: This isn't my "suggestion", this is actually how they nerf content in random queues.

Lol no.

You are expected to finish those dungeons. They are objectively easy. They are designed to be easy. They give you those buffs because you have no control over your group and LFD players are expected to be subpar (on average). A coordinated group is far superior to a group formed by matchmaking.

11/11/2018 09:22 PMPosted by Aewendil
When you wipe in LFR, they don't make the spells do less damage, they give you more HP and more healing received, which effectively creates the same effect, but on the player, rather than on the mob.

You don't understand how it works. I'm not trying to bully you or anything like that -- You just don't understand how the systems work on a technical level.

Encounters are designed with Group Finder, Normal, Heroic, and Mythic spells. They are assigned values based on those difficulty flags as well. Blizzard can nerf LFR without nerfing Mythic because of these flags. In addition, many encounters tend to use different spell IDs altogether. This means they're effectively isolated.

Mythic+ and Mythic0 are using the spell exact spell IDs for every spell. Regardless of Mythic dungeon level, a mob uses the same spell ID. Mythic+ and Mythic0 are not isolated from each other. You'll be nerfing it regardless of the keystone level.

I've already explained why Luck of the Draw is a poor solution. So I won't repeat myself.

If you do understand this, and we still disagree -- we'll need to end this discussion. There's no point in continuing.
11/11/2018 09:36 PMPosted by Cyouskin

You don't understand how it works. I'm not trying to bully you or anything like that -- You just don't understand how the systems work on a technical level.


I understand them just fine. You're just wrong, and like most elitists, you refuse to accept that possibility so just keep on assuming the other person is wrong.
11/11/2018 09:38 PMPosted by Aewendil
I understand them just fine. You're just wrong, and like most elitists, you refuse to accept that possibility so just keep on assuming the other person is wrong.

Thank you for reading the post in its entirety. I know your answer now.
11/11/2018 09:36 PMPosted by Cyouskin

Mythic+ and Mythic0 are using the spell exact spell IDs for every spell. Regardless of Mythic dungeon level, a mob uses the same spell ID. Mythic+ and Mythic0 are not isolated from each other. You'll be nerfing it regardless of the keystone level.


Again, not if you "nerf" it by using Luck Of The Draw, rather than changing any of the dungeon spells. Only so many times I can repeat myself here, you're just refusing to accept this possibility because it doesn't fit your narrative.
11/11/2018 09:35 PMPosted by Aewendil
11/11/2018 09:32 PMPosted by Jalen

I'm not wrong. You thinking that M+ doesn't get effected by M0 getting nerfed is pretty blind.


I apologise. I thought you were just being obstinate, but it seems you literally don't know what Luck Of The Draw is. So you're just ignorant, and that's not your fault. Not everyone can understand complex abstract concepts like a player buff.


Not everyone can understand complex abstract concepts like making your own group. Sorry a machine needs to play the game for you.
11/11/2018 09:36 PMPosted by Cyouskin

I've already explained why Luck of the Draw is a poor solution. So I won't repeat myself.

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No, actually, you haven't. You've just said "Luck of the draw is a nerf, and I don't like nerfs". While still claiming that nerfs are inevitable. Which again, is wrong.

There weren't any nerfs to queueable dungeon content in MoP or WoD and they were more challenging than BFA M0 are, at least at release.
11/11/2018 09:30 PMPosted by Aewendil
11/11/2018 09:26 PMPosted by Haavi

Dungeon Finder removes the ability to choose your group, whether through specific classes or individual players. It also attaches with it a different mentality of how the content should be performed.


Don't use it then, stick to LFG and only take 360+ players for your M0s. Nothing stopping you.

For people that don't feel they need to they overgear the dungeon to succeed, they can use the random tool.
Hahaha not necessarily the case but hey, why not use broad comments to cast a net.
Also again, having two systems designed to do the same function split the community. People are already complaining about issues getting groups in LFG and now you are thinking of adding another, adding more easily queueable content and also splitting the players looking to complete M0 into two parties.
I would love it.

No, it's not hard and it has never been hard. People seriously overestimate the requirements to do a mythic zero.
11/11/2018 09:40 PMPosted by Jalen
11/11/2018 09:35 PMPosted by Aewendil
...

I apologise. I thought you were just being obstinate, but it seems you literally don't know what Luck Of The Draw is. So you're just ignorant, and that's not your fault. Not everyone can understand complex abstract concepts like a player buff.


Not everyone can understand complex abstract concepts like making your own group. Sorry a machine needs to play the game for you.


I've explained multiple times why making your own group is not a solution to the wider issue. Your problem is that you simply don't think that people abandoning content is an issue at all.

Your default position on all of this is "haha bads can't do M0, lol who cares". Ignoring the actual issue which is that people don't like creating groups through the LFG tool.
11/11/2018 09:40 PMPosted by Aewendil
Again, not if you "nerf" it by using Luck Of The Draw, rather than changing any of the dungeon spells. Only so many times I can repeat myself here, you're just refusing to accept this possibility because it doesn't fit your narrative.

At this point, I think you're a passionate player and not a troll.

With that said, I don't believe you understand how tuning works within game design. Whether it be a lack of experience or lack of exposure to the systems, your LOTD suggestion doesn't work. (I've already explained it.) And nerfing M0 indirectly nerfs M+ content -- this isn't debatable. You are simply objectively false and there is nothing more to discuss.
11/11/2018 09:43 PMPosted by Haavi
11/11/2018 09:30 PMPosted by Aewendil
...

Don't use it then, stick to LFG and only take 360+ players for your M0s. Nothing stopping you.

For people that don't feel they need to they overgear the dungeon to succeed, they can use the random tool.
Hahaha not necessarily the case but hey, why not use broad comments to cast a net.
Also again, having two systems designed to do the same function split the community. People are already complaining about issues getting groups in LFG and now you are thinking of adding another, adding more easily queueable content and also splitting the players looking to complete M0 into two parties.


But in your own words, all it will do is weed out the bads ruining your groups, who would presumably all use the random tool instead of group finder, so why wouldn't you welcome that?
11/11/2018 09:45 PMPosted by Cyouskin
11/11/2018 09:40 PMPosted by Aewendil
Again, not if you "nerf" it by using Luck Of The Draw, rather than changing any of the dungeon spells. Only so many times I can repeat myself here, you're just refusing to accept this possibility because it doesn't fit your narrative.

At this point, I think you're a passionate player and not a troll.

With that said, I don't believe you understand how tuning works within game design.


I understand it just fine, try not to be such a condescending prick in literally every post and you might make a half decent MVP one day.

Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand the issue, and you calling me an idiot in the preamble of every post isn't getting you anywhere.

I understand though that it's a very convenient way to bail out of an argument that you're losing by claiming the other person is too stupid to understand your point.

FWIW you have at no point explained any of the things you've claimed to explain. You've just stated your POV, which is not the same thing as an explanation.
11/11/2018 09:44 PMPosted by Aewendil
I've explained multiple times why making your own group is not a solution to the wider issue.


No, actually, you haven't. You've just said "There are too many DPS and I don't like rejection"

11/11/2018 09:44 PMPosted by Aewendil
Your default position on all of this is "haha bads can't do M0, lol who cares". Ignoring the actual issue which is that people don't like creating groups through the LFG tool.


*checks Mythic + on the Group Finder*

Seems like people are enjoying the Group Finder
11/11/2018 09:38 PMPosted by Aewendil
11/11/2018 09:36 PMPosted by Cyouskin

You don't understand how it works. I'm not trying to bully you or anything like that -- You just don't understand how the systems work on a technical level.


I understand them just fine. You're just wrong, and like most elitists, you refuse to accept that possibility so just keep on assuming the other person is wrong.
I understand it just fine, try not to be such a condescending prick in literally every post and you might make a half decent CM one day.

Lol. I guess I was wrong about you. Have a good night, I won't bother talking to a wall.
11/11/2018 09:40 PMPosted by Aewendil
11/11/2018 09:36 PMPosted by Cyouskin

Mythic+ and Mythic0 are using the spell exact spell IDs for every spell. Regardless of Mythic dungeon level, a mob uses the same spell ID. Mythic+ and Mythic0 are not isolated from each other. You'll be nerfing it regardless of the keystone level.


Again, not if you "nerf" it by using Luck Of The Draw, rather than changing any of the dungeon spells. Only so many times I can repeat myself here, you're just refusing to accept this possibility because it doesn't fit your narrative.

Ok, but isn't the whole statement of Luck of the Draw counterintuitive anyway?
Yes using Luck of the Draw as opposed to changing the base values doesn't affect M+, however it doesn't make it a good solution.
We are now already in discussions as to how to nerf content that doesn't require nerfing, this is a problem in of itself.

Not only that but you have a community on one side who are saying that the barrier to entry into M+ is too large due to Tyrannical and Fortified being on low keys and now you are saying that you can nerf M0 content (the logical step before M+) thus increasing the gap in difficulty between the two contents.

Regardless of how you look at it putting M0 in a queue, especially when requiring assistance to complete hurts the interactions between progression and M+

How Cyouskin describes LFG content I think is perfect.

You are expected to finish those dungeons. They are objectively easy. They are designed to be easy. They give you those buffs because you have no control over your group and LFD players are expected to be subpar (on average). A coordinated group is far superior to a group formed by matchmaking.
11/11/2018 09:49 PMPosted by Jalen

*checks Mythic + on the Group Finder*

Seems like people are enjoying the Group Finder


Does the group finder show you figures on how many people have elected *not* to use it?

I don't know the figures any more than you do, but I would bet money that there are around 50 times more random heroic dungeon runs per day than there are M+0. And it's not so much of a difference in difficulty to explain it all away.
11/11/2018 09:46 PMPosted by Aewendil
FWIW you have at no point explained any of the things you've claimed to explain. You've just stated your POV, which is not the same thing as an explanation.


11/11/2018 09:15 PMPosted by Cyouskin
If a single spell is too dangerous, you don't apply a global buff to all players to overcome the single spell. You nerf the spell. What your suggestion does is not "nerf" the spell, but you're making literally every other NPC, Spell, mechanic that much easier. That is why your suggestion doesn't work.

If you nerf the spell, you're also nerfing the spell for those damned "elitist jerks." We don't want that.
11/11/2018 09:53 PMPosted by Haavi
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Again, not if you "nerf" it by using Luck Of The Draw, rather than changing any of the dungeon spells. Only so many times I can repeat myself here, you're just refusing to accept this possibility because it doesn't fit your narrative.

Ok, but isn't the whole statement of Luck of the Draw counterintuitive anyway?
Yes using Luck of the Draw as opposed to changing the base values doesn't affect M+, however it doesn't make it a good solution.
We are now already in discussions as to how to nerf content that doesn't require nerfing, this is a problem in of itself.


Except I'm not claiming that anything would need nerfing. I am just dismantling the argument used by Cy and others that goes along the lines of "Oh noes, nerfing M0 would nerf M+ so you'd be impacting high level players too!" Which is demonstrably false, since there are numerous ways that they could nerf 1 difficulty without nerfing the other.

It's just a disingenuous argument meant to mask their real reason for opposing queues - the real reason being that they really like the fact that some people aren't getting to do content because of the group finder. People not getting to do content gives them wood. These are the same people that routinely call for the removal of LFR for exactly the same reasons.

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