Blizzard lfr is a que so why not m0?

General Discussion
Prev 1 13 14 15 26 Next
11/11/2018 10:45 PMPosted by Aewendil
Many others who this content are not relevant to, and are die hard elitists with the patronising posts that give it away, are arguing against a feature that they don't like because they enjoy excluding people.

I'm starting to think you're trolling because of these comments.

11/11/2018 10:45 PMPosted by Aewendil
People don't avoid the group finder because they are avoiding responsibility. They avoid the group finder to avoid rejection.

Form your own group.

Can't learn to swim if you never get wet.
11/11/2018 10:51 PMPosted by Haavi

Something else we haven't addressed. Is M0 queue repeatable? Or does it have a lock out as Mythic0 currently has?


I don't see why it needs a lockout if warfronts don't.

I assume that if it was implemented then it would have a lockout similar to heroic, which is that you can specify a dungeon once per week, but after that you can only avoid the lockout by queuing. (This is another deliberate measure to encourage people to queue).
11/11/2018 10:45 PMPosted by Aewendil

This'd be a good time to take a step back and realize maybe what you think is the correct solution is actually not, as many others are sitting here telling you the opposite.


Many others who this content are not relevant to, and are die hard elitists with the patronising posts that give it away, are arguing against a feature that they don't like because they enjoy excluding people.

And there doesn't need to be que-able mythic 0s, because at some point part of the challenge of playing this game becomes taking responsibility for yourself, creating a group, and forming a successful comp to accomplish the common goal each player in said group, has.


And I mean this is exactly the kind of elitist thinking which shows why there's no point asking your opinion on issues that affect casual players.

People don't avoid the group finder because they are avoiding responsibility. They avoid the group finder to avoid rejection. People don't like being rejected, whether it's in real life or even in a video game. People spend their whole lives avoiding rejection - not applying to jobs, not asking the girl out etc. Many, many people are not willing to deliberately subject themselves to do it in order to play a video game. Especially when that rejection often comes in an extremely toxic form.

This is the primary reason that people avoid the group finder. It's got nothing to do with responsibility or laziness or any of the other negative attributes that elitists are always willing to attribute to casual players. It's because it quite literally feels bad to keep applying to groups and have them say that you're not wanted.

This is something that high level players often forget because they aren't getting turned down from many groups when they are 380 mythic geared with 1600 .io score. But it's pretty bad at the bottom.


Perhaps there is value in confronting anxiety. Perhaps that is not only how human beings learn how to grow, but also how to thrive in negative conditions that inherently, ultimately, are part of life. Perhaps if people think "If I try this, I'll burst into flames!" then they try it, and find there was nothing to be afraid of in the first place, except selling yourself and what you can accomplish, short.

Too much of anything is bad. And I understand mental difficulties, I do, but there's enough stuff out in the world to truly be anxious about. People don't need to add something like this to their list.

And I'd stop blaming "elitests" for everything you don't agree with, it makes you look exceedingly childish. After all, the "elitests" you rail against have had many, many things taken away from them this expac. WoW is more casual friendly than it's ever been.

But at some point players actually have to play the game, and stop being afraid of it.
11/11/2018 10:53 PMPosted by Cyouskin

Form your own group.

Can't learn to swim if you never get wet.


Forming your own group doesn't solve the problem, and this has been discussed many times already in the thread.

I realise you think you're really smart but the solution you and other elitist knobs continually propose actually isn't a solution at all, since the amount of groups doesn't change.


Perhaps there is value in confronting anxiety. Perhaps that is not only how human beings learn how to grow, but also how to thrive in negative conditions that inherently, ultimately, are part of life. Perhaps if people think "If I try this, I'll burst into flames!" then they try it, and find there was nothing to be afraid of in the first place, except selling yourself and what you can accomplish, short.

Too much of anything is bad. And I understand mental difficulties, I do, but there's enough stuff out in the world to truly be anxious about. People don't need to add something like this to their list.



Exactly, people don't need to add to their anxiety while playing a video game, which is why the game population largely avoids LFG, and prefers queuing. Queued content is massively more popular than manually created groups for exactly this reason.
11/11/2018 10:40 PMPosted by Dubknight

Eventually, players need to learn to do things for themselves and that will help them with future challenges. Blizz has decided at least partially that starting point is m0's.

So it's fine the way it is.

Edit:
For example, at some point people need to learn the advantages of bringing more melee or more ranged. Of bringing lust and brez classes, at least one each. Learning the value of stuns and snares and specs that excel at those things.


People managed to learn these things just fine when all dungeon content was queueable.
Agreed. I'd be for normal raids in the queue as well.

We would probably need some proving ground requirements as a compromise, but that is something you can earn yourself and much more preferable to jumping through hoops to appease someone enough to get an invite.
Another thing they can try would be a different option for group finder--one we used to have in Pandaria. Basically, you can make yourself available for groups. People making groups can then pick the players of their choice from the pool. I thought it was a lot more efficient and convenient, but hey, not an autoqueue for whoever is twitching about that in HQ.

Sure, maybe no one picks you, but at least you're free to do as you like while listed instead of wasting your time getting rejected...because I'm just plain not doing that. The loot's not that good, it's not that fun, and there is something else I could be doing instead.
11/11/2018 10:45 PMPosted by Aewendil
People don't avoid the group finder because they are avoiding responsibility. They avoid the group finder to avoid rejection. People don't like being rejected, whether it's in real life or even in a video game. People spend their whole lives avoiding rejection - not applying to jobs, not asking the girl out etc. Many, many people are not willing to deliberately subject themselves to do it in order to play a video game. Especially when that rejection often comes in an extremely toxic form.

This is the primary reason that people avoid the group finder. It's got nothing to do with responsibility or laziness or any of the other negative attributes that elitists are always willing to attribute to casual players. It's because it quite literally feels bad to keep applying to groups and have them say that you're not wanted.

To be honest, if the reason you are not using the standard grouping tools due to fear of rejection then you need the system to be as it is. Having unhealthy fears of rejection are not good for a person in general, they are detrimental to their mental health and their view of themselves as people. The only way that we overcome the fear of rejection is by subjecting ourselves to it and overcoming that fear.

Just take a look at the hundreds of talks for "How I got rejected 100 days in a row" or similar. People who have deliberately gone out of their way to seek rejection to overcome their fear of it.

11/11/2018 10:45 PMPosted by Aewendil

Many others who this content are not relevant to, and are die hard elitists with the patronising posts that give it away, are arguing against a feature that they don't like because they enjoy excluding people.

I like how you unjustly include me in this group as you feel it better helps your argument.
I've already stated I'm a casual.
To go into more detail I only get time to play two nights a week, Monday and Thursday, with varying hours. I'm hardly to be included in your "die hard Elitist" bucket.
11/11/2018 11:19 PMPosted by Haavi
To go into more detail I only get time to play two nights a week, Monday and Thursday, with varying hours. I'm hardly to be included in your "die hard Elitist" bucket.

Dude, for the last 4 weeks, I've logged in for a total of 12 hours. 3 raid days (4 hours each), and I skipped a raid due to BlizzCon.

You're hardcore compared to me, definitely not casual. >:C
11/11/2018 10:58 PMPosted by Aewendil
11/11/2018 10:53 PMPosted by Cyouskin

Form your own group.

Can't learn to swim if you never get wet.


Forming your own group doesn't solve the problem, and this has been discussed many times already in the thread.

I realise you think you're really smart but the solution you and other elitist knobs continually propose actually isn't a solution at all, since the amount of groups doesn't change.


So how is forming your own group not a solution. If there are so many people trying to do M0 but are being hindered by Elitiests, you think that forming a group for them would fill fast. But you said earlier that M0 has little interest, which btw LFD wouldn't solve. Make a group, grow you circle of friends, join a guild, play a MMO.

Also, most LFDs get nerfed to the point of stupidity cause they have to be tailored to the lowest denominator....and guess what they can not nerf to do that M0.....why? Cause its BASELINE for M+ (you nerf M0, you nerf the M+ variants)
Galvazzt's Consume Charge should also never go off which is why that boss is terrible to pug because healers and tanks don't want to take responsibility to stand in a beam. Yes, it can potentially go off if everyone is undergeared, as seen in week 1 mythic 0s, but that is with groups of 305's doing the dungeon. Not 325's which would arguably be the queue point similar to snorefronts. That is also when there were limited resources available for dungeons. We are almost 3 months in so there are tons of guides for dungeons and there are strategies available to everyone. Frost Mages can take like 40+ stacks on their own on that boss for example with double ice block (go to 15, block, go to 15, block, go to 10). The sad part is the beams is the only mechanic on that boss and groups still don't want to do it in lower keys or m0s and then complain when they get one shot on tyrannical.
11/11/2018 11:34 PMPosted by Hindering

So how is forming your own group not a solution.


There can never be more groups than there are tanks.

Forming your own group does not increase the number of full groups. There's no guarantee that your group will ever fill. And for less popular dungeons, they often don't ever fill.

Let's say for example you want to do +0 Freehold. You look in the group finder, there are already 2 groups there. You apply to both, both groups decline you. So you start your own group.

The groups are going to fill in this order:

1. The group that has a healer or tank in it already is going to fill first
2. The group that has the highest ilevel/io leader

Now, you might say you can wait and hope that those groups fill and the next tank joins yours, but that assumes no new groups better than yours have started in the meantime. It's entirely possible to sit there all day and have nobody except other low level DPS apply to your group.

This is not by any means an uncommon situation.

And if the dungeon you want to do is SotS instead of Freehold then you're basically wasting your time by advertising a group at all.

So realistically, "start your own group" is at best misguided advice. At worst it's just an attempt to completely fob off the issue.

Starting your own group works fine when you have something to offer prospective group members. Which means it usually works fine in M+ because you have a M+ key to offer. But in M0, you have nothing to offer that another potential group does not. Why should anyone join your group over theirs? The answer is there's no real reason.

How do queues overcome this problem? 2 ways.

1. You are guaranteed a group if you are willing to wait.
2. Queues increase the number of available tanks and healers by offering them bribe satchels to tank content they otherwise might not have bothered with. Or by convincing someone who usually prefers DPS to tank or heal instead.

I encourage anyone who can't think of any better advice than "form your own group" to get on a low ilvl alt and try creating their own M0 group to see how it actually works out in the real world. I think a lot of them don't actually realise that it's not nearly as good a solution as they think it is.
11/11/2018 11:47 PMPosted by Aewendil
2. Queues increase the number of available tanks and healers by offering them bribe satchels to tank content they otherwise might not have bothered with. Or by convincing someone who usually prefers DPS to tank or heal instead.


lol. back when the satchels actually gave stuff like pets and stuff, sure i wouldd say this, but todays satchel is so not worth queing for (i would rather just do something else then heal a LFR Zul wing just for a satchel to give me a stone and crap gold.

if it still idk gave pets, i would of agreed with you, but most healers/tanks don't see satchels as worth the headache.
11/11/2018 11:47 PMPosted by Aewendil
I encourage anyone who can't think of any better advice than "form your own group" to get on a low ilvl alt and try creating their own M0 group to see how it actually works out in the real world. I think a lot of them don't actually realise that it's not nearly as good a solution as they think it is.


I've literally been doing this for the last few days on my warlock. It's not that hard. Seriously. It's just...not.

You put up a listing, you go do your emissary for the day, and you listen for the chime when someone applies. That's it.

Not to mention half the DPS that show up have tank and healer offspecs but don't want to do it because...well...they're afraid of having to carry atrociously bad DPS.
11/11/2018 11:52 PMPosted by Hindering
11/11/2018 11:47 PMPosted by Aewendil
2. Queues increase the number of available tanks and healers by offering them bribe satchels to tank content they otherwise might not have bothered with. Or by convincing someone who usually prefers DPS to tank or heal instead.


lol. back when the satchels actually gave stuff like pets and stuff, sure i wouldd say this, but todays satchel is so not worth queing for (i would rather just do something else then heal a LFR Zul wing just for a satchel to give me a stone and crap gold.


The contents of a satchel are worth around 2000 gold, about the same as doing as an emissary cache. That's not bad for 15 minute's work. It certainly wouldn't hurt.

I agree that LFR satchels aren't really worth it but that's mostly because 2 of the 3 LFR wings are complete aids, and LFR takes longer than a dungeon. I've done the first wing for satchels a few times, didn't bother with wing 2 or 3 though.

Additionally it's also that people who could tank but would usually choose to DPS are often swayed to tank by a satchel. They were going to do the dungeon anyway, so why not get some gold and a shorter queue?

In any case, the fact that satchels are not constantly available is proof that they work.
11/12/2018 12:30 AMPosted by Aewendil
The contents of a satchel are worth around 2000 gold, about the same as doing as an emissary cache.


Rarely. I used to do this, but the market got flooded and runes are rarely over 300 apiece now. I'm better off bear-farming a bunch of lizards next to Boralus for bones, the gold rate is almost three times what I'd get for one run for runes.
11/10/2018 12:53 PMPosted by Khëmical
If Mythic was Q-Able I would certainly love to participate. Currently I avoid the hassle and time of trying to get into a group on the Group finder. I find the hoops needed to satisfy some of the elitist players isn't worth sitting in front of the computer waiting only to be declined for whatever reason.

I'm one that enjoys the ease of LFR however much of a train wreck it can be, because sometimes the train does reach the station and the loot achieved.


I really feel bad for players like you. Starting or joining a mythic 0 group is one of the simplest things to do in the game. How do you function in the real world?
11/11/2018 11:02 PMPosted by Aewendil
11/11/2018 10:40 PMPosted by Dubknight

Eventually, players need to learn to do things for themselves and that will help them with future challenges. Blizz has decided at least partially that starting point is m0's.

So it's fine the way it is.

Edit:
For example, at some point people need to learn the advantages of bringing more melee or more ranged. Of bringing lust and brez classes, at least one each. Learning the value of stuns and snares and specs that excel at those things.


People managed to learn these things just fine when all dungeon content was queueable.


No. It's literally impossible for a player to purposefully build a 5 man comp in que-able content when...

Oh I see. You're trolling. Ok. I'm done here.
11/12/2018 12:39 AMPosted by Oimate
11/10/2018 12:53 PMPosted by Khëmical
If Mythic was Q-Able I would certainly love to participate. Currently I avoid the hassle and time of trying to get into a group on the Group finder. I find the hoops needed to satisfy some of the elitist players isn't worth sitting in front of the computer waiting only to be declined for whatever reason.

I'm one that enjoys the ease of LFR however much of a train wreck it can be, because sometimes the train does reach the station and the loot achieved.


I really feel bad for players like you. Starting or joining a mythic 0 group is one of the simplest things to do in the game. How do you function in the real world?


Goes to show the mentality of many elitist players that they can't post a single thing on the subject without being passive-aggressive or patronising.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum